Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[FundieCentral]

Slight thread drift, but I would also wonder what it takes to no longer be fundamentalist. 

I’m reading that quite a few people would like the Duggars to become true leftists RE social politics. 

To be honest, I personally don’t have that expectation, and I would be more than happy if they simply kept their beliefs to themselves. I know plenty of people who think abortion is murder, an ideal family is mother, father, and children, and sex change operations in children are too much too soon. These are all legitimate beliefs to hold, whether or not other people agree with them, and such beliefs to inform people’s voting choices, and that is ok in my opinion. For me there is a clear difference between believing something and disagreeing with others vs. being hateful. So in my worldview, picketing in front of an abortion clinic? Unacceptable. You are just scaring people and hating on them and achieving nothing of value. But we live in a pluralistic democracy, so if someone sincerely believes that the killing of a fetus is murder because the human soul is already present from conception and they express that belief and vote for a candidate that believes similarly (and don’t go around harassing strangers etc etc) that’s your right. So disagreement doesn’t equal hate, at least in my book. 

So for me, the Duggars would leave fundamentalism when they gave up the idea that the world should be formed in their image and are happy to just live their life according to whichever standards they desire. Derick’s tweeting is a major obstacle here. So is the TV show, the weird anti-abortion poster business, the strict raising of their children, the “separation” from normal people (including no college, no schools, no jobs) and the possible “if you’re not Christian you don’t get any money” that I would assume is going on in the background in regards to the proceeds from TV. It’s more of a functionalist definition I suppose. But for me when I think of “fundies” it’s not so much characterized by strict evangelical beliefs as it is the weird strain of “America should be the land of God” thinking that’s going on. Leaving that behind and becoming “just” very religious would mean they are then just strictly religious but not what I personally call fundie. 

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, FundieCentral said:

an ideal family is mother, father, and children,

Is being anti-gay really a legitimate belief? Yes people hold it, but it does a lot of damage and contributes to the idea that gay families are bad and harm children And when they start voting their beliefs, it stops becoming personal and starts forcing them on others which is just as bad as if they stood outside abortion clinics. Standing outside abortion clinics and not voting would do less damage. Their anit-gay, anti-woman beliefs no longer just impact them, it impacts me. They end up using politics to force their beliefs on others. So yeah, I'm not going to applaud them deciding to use the government to oppress people because of their beliefs. 

[Lisafer]

5 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Tagging the people you quoted @Coy Koi @pamplemousse @LurkerOverThePond @ChickenettiLuvr @nokidsmom @fundiefan, so they can reply if they want.

Anyway I agree with @Palimpsest, the above quotes seem more a reminder of the improbability of a sudden change in those households, a let's not delude ourselves into thinking they'll make a sudden 180 so soon. If you consider how many years some FJrs have been following some of those families and what little changes they witnessed, it's a very justifiable position.

Otoh the Shupes jave gone some miles towards change and even if it's not clear how much of their beliefs have changed, FJers have been mostly thrilled for the new opportunities that the changes are offering to the kids.

Thanks for tagging! Didn't know how to import all those quotes lol. I can see how most of them could be misunderstood except the last one about the Anderson kids. Perhaps that was born out of a moment of frustration?

P.S. I really enjoy FJ because it makes me think and challenges me to explain myself! With my mental health issues it can be a bit exhausting, though. I may need to go read about the Ween Man now! Pray to Rufus for me...

[HarleyQuinn]

Oh man the comments on that Daily Mail article are hilarious. Normally their comment sections suck since Trumpkins took it over but everyone seems to agree that it's creepy AF how obsessed he is with Jazz. 

[WiseGirl]

Regarding US Magazine (I know late to the party), Dwreck stating "this kind of thinking should not be encouraged by the media."  

Dwreck IMO your kind of thinking should not be encouraged by the media and I would be a happy wise one if the media would just start to ignore you. How I wish your 15 minutes of fame was up. You are not as important as you seem to think you are and your obsession with a minor is unsettling at best.

And another little quibble about your tweet you wrote about child abuse and a "lifestyle degrading  to children." Imo that whole blanket training and wooden spoon usage comes under child abuse. Also imo a degrading lifestyle for children is one that limits their opportunities. And one more thing continuing to post pictures/videos of your kids on your site is still using them. Oh that's right they aren't on TV so it's okay or something like that.

Not sure how clearly I am expressing myself, but with these tweets Dwreck just confirms for me that Jill changing her clothing is just frosting on a turd or something like that. Pretty, shiney package hiding a whole lot of ugliness. I don't think this family is stepping away from any of their hateful beliefs.  (That was quite a ramble the orange one is the only other one that gets me this riled...)

[Mama Mia]

I’ve gotta say - not knowing much about fundamentalism - but the vast majority of people I know who are against medical and surgical interventions with trans kids ( and have some big issues with some other aspects of gender identity issues as well ) - are women, and feminists. 

And, in many social circles, it’s a third rail type issue that can not be broached.

[Jenn The Heathen]

I honestly think DWreck loves the attention, good or bad, that comes with stating wildly unpopular opinions.  I think he enjoyed the attention that came with being on reality TV and he misses that now that he’s “stopped volunteering” for CO.  So he says exactly what he’s thinking when other Duggars have learned to keep their expression of controversial views to a minimum.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, FundieCentral said:

 

To be honest, I personally don’t have that expectation, and I would be more than happy if they simply kept their beliefs to themselves. I know plenty of people who think abortion is murder, an ideal family is mother, father, and children, and sex change operations in children are too much too soon. These are all legitimate beliefs to hold, whether or not other people agree with them, and such beliefs to inform people’s voting choices, and that is ok in my opinion. For me there is a clear difference between believing something and disagreeing with others vs. being hateful. So in my worldview, picketing in front of an abortion clinic? Unacceptable. You are just scaring people and hating on them and achieving nothing of value. But we live in a pluralistic democracy, so if someone sincerely believes that the killing of a fetus is murder because the human soul is already present from conception and they express that belief and vote for a candidate that believes similarly (and don’t go around harassing strangers etc etc) that’s your right. So disagreement doesn’t equal hate, at least in my book. 

If you believe abortion is murder and don't want to have one it's perfectly fine and a private matter regarding only yourself. But if you vote for someone who holds the same belief and will proceed to limit my possibilities to choose to have an abortion, then that's imposing your beliefs on me and that's the moment your honest and legit belief becomes hateful.

I am a cis straight woman and the idea of having lesbian intercourses would make me feel seriously uneasy. That's fine, lesbian sex is not of my taste. But if I vote for someone who thinks gay sex os an aberration and is going to pass legislation to limit gay people's right, then my legitimate personal distaste becomes a hateful belief.

So yes if you vote for representatives that are going to do their best to limit other people's rights to choose how to live their lives, in my book you are an hateful person. It doesn't matter if you're a fundie or not, you are still trying to impose your beliefs on someone else.

[nickelodeon]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I’ve gotta say - not knowing much about fundamentalism - but the vast majority of people I know who are against medical and surgical interventions with trans kids ( and have some big issues with some other aspects of gender identity issues as well ) - are women, and feminists. 

And, in many social circles, it’s a third rail type issue that can not be broached.

While I haven't seen this specific opinion yet, I'll believe it - sadly transphobia is becoming more and more common in the feminist movement.

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

If you believe abortion is murder and don't want to have one it's perfectly fine and a private matter regarding only yourself. But if you vote for someone who holds the same belief and will proceed to limit my possibilities to choose to have an abortion, then that's imposing your beliefs on me and that's the moment your honest and legit belief becomes hateful.

I am a cis straight woman and the idea of having lesbian intercourses would make me feel seriously uneasy. That's fine, lesbian sex is not of my taste. But if I vote for someone who thinks gay sex os an aberration and is going to pass legislation to limit gay people's right, then my legitimate personal distaste becomes a hateful belief.

I personally know I could never have an abortion (see getting knocked up at 17), BUT...I can only speak for ME. I want to keep abortion LEGAL throughout pregnancy. Why? Because I've never had to make the choices some women have had to make. I've been fortunate enough to have healthy pregnancies and babies. A pro-choice friend turned me on to a website that is pretty much exclusively about fetal abnormalities and I couldn't see forcing a woman to carry to term with a child who has serious abnormalities. 

I am also a cis straight woman. I like guys. Nothing but guys. But, that's MY thing. 2 of my children are bisexual. So is my spouse. My granddaughter has declared herself pansexual. I don't understand it, probably never will understand it but it's not going to affect me one way or another. I don't believe in discriminating against anyone whatsoever...Are you human? Yes? Then that's pretty much all that matters (we won't get into critters, I'm a crazy cat lady). I'm more concerned with how I treat others and how other folks treat me. Kinda like that "love one another" thing...I'm pretty sure Jesus meant that. I mean, I don't have to agree with you to think you are deserving of love and acceptance. Well, except for all those fundies and Trumpkins that I consider to be worthy of nothing but contempt and derision. 

 

[singsingsing]

People are confusing the question 'What would it take for you to consider the Duggars no longer fundie?' with 'What would it take for you to stop criticizing the Duggars?' And those two questions are worlds apart.

[Mama Mia]

45 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

While I haven't seen this specific opinion yet, I'll believe it - sadly transphobia is becoming more and more common in the feminist movement.

I disagree that it is transphobia.  I think they have legitimate points.

[FluffySnowball]

9 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I disagree that it is transphobia.  I think they have legitimate points.

Which “legitimate” points justify discrimination of trans people?

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

( and have some big issues with some other aspects of gender identity issues as well

I can understand the thinking behind saying no surgery on children, that they have to wait till they turn 18, but what other issues do they have that aren't transphobic? ' 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

@Mama Mia are you talking about the view that trans children should not be able to have hormonal/surgical interventions until they are legally adult? I've heard people argue this.

That being said, I think many trans people realize from a very young age that their body and their gender identity don't match. As for surgery, I'm not sure how I feel about it being performed on minors, but I see no harm in hormonal blockers to delay puberty or hormone therapy. I know for MTFs it's way harder for them to 'pass' as female if they go through male puberty and then get the hormonal intervention/surgeries later in life. Once their voices have deepened it can't be reversed, and after facial hair starts to grow, they would require electrolysis to get rid of it. If a person is aware of their gender identity from a young age, and has proper counselling/medical supervision, hormone blockers could save them a lot of grief down the road.

All this being said, the idea of a young MTF getting bottom surgery which would allow her to wear female swimsuits and change in female changerooms without feeling she has to hide makes me way less uncomfortable than the thought of a 16 year old (cis or trans) getting breast implants. With hormones, the breasts will grow without surgical intervention, and I think it's best to let them finish growing naturally before deciding to get surgery.

[precious blessing]

wow, I had zoned out while building a house on the sims 3 this morning and i just realized my mind had been on how shitty of a person dwreck is. i'm someone who believes i dont hate anyone; people are products of their environment and while they choose their actions and beliefs as adults, i can only strongly strongly dislike them. not trying to open this up for debate, just stating my stance for reference. I spent over an hour absentmindly being super salty about this pointless blowhard. all this negativity is contagious, yall.

as someone who strangely went through a pretty intense religious phase in high school (i was deeply considering becoming a nun,) i simply dont understand christians who are biased toward any group of people. from my understanding, old testament hardcore shit was clarified and modified? in the new testament. Jesus said love everybody. it's not your place to judge people.

 that leads me to the topic of these fundies "changing" and how people cling to any sign that they might be drifting away from their toxic beliefs. The only person in the duggar circle that I hold hope for is ben. despite the public's general first impressions of him being awkward and somewhat inarticulate (and also needing some benadryl), IMO he shows small signs of critical thinking and open-mindedness. surely he holds many of the same hateful beliefs as the rest of them, but I don't know. I'm the same age as ben, he has a lot of time to hopefully figure shit out. dont get me wrong, im not praising him or defending him, just based on my observation he seems the most likely to change a bit.

however, i firmly believe no matter how liberal these people could become, they will never give up the baybeez. they will never be pro choice, and so they will never really be pro womens rights. so... if i consider they could give up all their biases but that, i would give them some credit. if someone really believes from conception a would-be person has a soul, but they realize carrying that child would subject the woman to dire consequences, what would they decide is right? if i believed that, i would begrudgingly "leave it up to god," but hell naw i dont believe that! everyones entitled to their own beliefs and i wont go after someone personally for being pro fetus, but i will fight them when it comes to voting/rallying

apologies for riffles, SEVERE gramatical errors, rambling, etc. i would review before posting but ive typed this on my phone and it's laggy af

also, if i had become a nun, i 100% believe i'd still be on FJ. you know, when i wasnt doing nun things.

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, precious blessing said:

, i firmly believe no matter how liberal these people could become, they will never give up the baybeez. they will never be pro choice, and so they will never really be pro womens rights.

I'm not going to say that none of them will because a whole lot of us(including me) were pretty hard core anti-choicers and we changed. They can change, but they will have to want to. And the hate that will heap on them if they come out as pro-choice will be unbelievable. 

[nickelodeon]

44 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I disagree that it is transphobia.  I think they have legitimate points.

I don't think I know enough about this particular subject to argue about it properly (I'm not Derick.) But we know that fundies aren't concerned about minors using HRT because they're just so committed to trans people having the best and safest healthcare during their transition. If cis feminists with "big issues with gender identity" are making the same statements as Derick, then I suspect they aren't either.

[nausicaa]

28 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I can understand the thinking behind saying no surgery on children, that they have to wait till they turn 18, but what other issues do they have that aren't transphobic? ' 

I can't speak for MamaMia but some points I've seen on Twitter and other places (I should also point out here that I am so far from some expert on the trans community, or really any of the communities discussed below, and my "expertise" is really just wasting too much damn time on social media):

Identifying children as transgender can sometimes encourage people to reinforce gender stereotypes rather than embrace that men and women can act in a wide variety of ways and gender is not a narrow construct. Some transgender advocates can be seen as unconsciously encouraging a false male/female duality.

There is also the issue of saying that people who won't date or have sex with transgender people-- even transgender people who have not had full sex reassignment surgery-- are bigots. I have heard from some lesbians that there is a lot of tension in their community about this. They are not attracted to male genitalia, and so should not be expected to have sex/be attracted to a person with a penis. There is also just the issue of thinking one gets to dictate to people who they are attracted to (which is also an issue in the HAES community, imo).

I also know that there are prominent feminists who have an issue with the inclusion of late transitioning MTF people in discussions of the sexism experienced growing up as a girl and other issues that may not directly affect someone who is MTF (getting pregnant from rape, abortion, etc.)

I consider myself supportive of transgender people. You have the 100% right to express your gender in whatever way makes you comfortable, use whatever bathroom you want, describe and present yourself however, and sleep with whatever consenting adults you want to sleep with. And I do think there can be anti-trans sentiment in liberal communities.

However, there are also issues (and I don't even necessarily agree with all of them) that I think are valid to talk about but if brought up are too often immediately dismissed as bigotry rather than explored.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I can understand the thinking behind saying no surgery on children, that they have to wait till they turn 18, but what other issues do they have that aren't transphobic? ' 

From what I have read and heard :

1. Surgery itself on children, but also allowing very young teens to take cross-sex hormones that cause sterility, before they are really old enough to make that decision. And if they have been on puberty blockers - they can not even store eggs or sperm for later use.

2. Single lesbians feel pressured to date trans women with penises. And are called some very ugly names if they only want to have sex with anatomical women. This is probably more common in areas like the SF region / Portland / New York - but it is a real thing. Google cotton ceiling.

3. Women erasure - some feminists / women’s orgs feel that their voices are being shut out on women’s issues. For example - uproar over the pink pussy hats because “not all women have pussy’s” , shouting down Rose Mc Gowan when she was talking about her sexual abuse because she wasn’t talking about trans women. Inability in some groups to discuss anything about biological female realities like menstruation and blood and childbirth - because it excludes trans women. The Irish Referendum on abortion getting backlash because they didn’t go far enough to leave out words like “ woman” instead of saying “ uterus havers” - things like that.

4. The most prevelant - and persuasive, to me, — is that this is leading to increased genderfication of every single activity and preference. If you are a girl or woman and like hunting and have short hair - you must be non-binary or genderqueer or gender creative - not a girl or woman who likes hunting and short hair. If you are a boy who prefers dance and glitter and “girl” things - maybe you’re a trans girl.  There are quite a few lesbians and gay men who see it as erasure of homosexuality. 

It is also likely because of where I live that I see this  - if I lived in a more rural area in the Bible Belt - I ‘m sure I’d only see the legitimate struggles that trans people face in just surviving. 

 

[Alice in Fundieland]

My parents took me to church semi-regularly as a child and for the past few years my mom has taken my children regularly. Although she never gets in anyone’s face about it, my mom is definitely more vocal about her religion now than I ever remember her being before. Many of my family members and my husband’s family members are devout Christians.

I am a well-educated woman in my late 30s. I own my own home and cars and anyone who knows me will tell you I have no trouble sharing my thoughts and opinions. However, I am an atheist and have only shared that information with 2 like-minded family members and a few like-minded friends. I would not want to deal with the dirty looks, the praying for my soul, or the shock and disbelief so I keep the information to myself.

I wasn’t sheltered from the outside world during my formidable years or routinely threatened with a fate of eternal damnation for committing a sin. I can only imagine how a young adult fundie would feel trying to express even the slightest difference in ideology from his or her family.

[SorenaJ]

To me it’s more about what you like being called. If people call you a girl, and you are completely fine with that, then you are probably a girl. If you are like “ah no don’t!” then you are probably not. 

[Beermeet]

Of course ofjill just had to chime in.  What is his deal?  I'm starting to think he likes to do secret stuff like cross dress or have feelings twords other males or something.  Ofjill is obcessed with Jazz.

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/derick-dillard-slams-jazz-jennings-gender-confirmation-surgery/

[singsingsing]

9 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Of course ofjill just had to chime in.  What is his deal?  I'm starting to think he likes to do secret stuff like cross dress or have feelings twords other males or something.  Ofjill is obcessed with Jazz.

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/derick-dillard-slams-jazz-jennings-gender-confirmation-surgery/

He's obsessed with Jazz because she's on TLC. He hates people who don't fit into his cookie cutter worldview, but he hates TLC ever more.

[Ms Lucy Fur]

On 6/28/2018 at 12:45 PM, formergothardite said:

@luv2laugh Yep. Sure can. Seriously, do you truly not understand that all IFB aren't skirt wearing, homeschooling, avoiding movie theaters types? 

This picture is from an IFB church in NC.

  Reveal hidden contents

Another IFB church in NC. Seriously, Jill and Jinger are doing nothing that people would give them the side eye over in the majority of IFB churches I know. 

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Way off topic, but the little girl in the middle is wearing a shirt from basketball camp where I went to high school. Carry on.