Mr and Mrs Jill Duggar 58: The D’Wreckoning

[Edhelfin]

6 minutes ago, bird said:

Not to mention wishing that someone would be sterilized against their will because you disagree with their belief system or how they raise their kids steps very close to a line I personally would like to stay very far from. 

 

How they raise their kids? I can sure as hell criticise Duggars for what they do wrong about that, It is very obvious.

 

Edited: Ah I misunderstood, never mind. How do I delete this?

[bird]

11 minutes ago, Edhelfin said:

 

How they raise their kids? I can sure as hell criticise Duggars for what they do wrong about that, It is very obvious.

 

Edited: Ah I misunderstood, never mind. How do I delete this?

It's ok. I understand how sensitive the topic is when it involves kids. I also am sick at the idea of kids being hurt or harmed. 

[BernRul]

4 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I'm having a hard time being outraged by this. I think there can be some mental benefits to memorization and it is somewhat of a skill so I don't see what it would hurt to have a kid memorize things and start practicing that skill early. Bible verses aren't particularly useful, no (at least IMO--obviously they would feel differently!), but I doubt it's taking the place of anything more important either, especially at his age.

I actually kind of think memorization is undervalued these days. It's definitely true that comprehension is far more important than rote memory, but sometimes you do just need to memorize things if you want to learn. It's not just one or the other.

Gotta disagree. At Izzy's age, the only things he should be memorizing are lyrics to fun songs, how to write his name, and the ABCs. And even then, it's not so much memorizing as recognizing the way language sounds and associating the sounds with letters.

Memorization can be helpful, like with times tables, but thinking logically, creatively, and comprehending a topic on a deeper level are all way more important. Children should be taught to think in those other ways, with memorization being a by product.  For example, this is how multiplication works and why we do it, and after you master that it helps to memorize the times tables to make more advanced math problems easier. But memorization on its own should never be taught.

Memorizing the Bible is weird to me. I went to Catholic school and we never once had to memorize the Bible. We learned to interpret the Bible, learned about the context in which it was written, read and discussed stories in it, and learned not to take it literally. I was straight up told that Adam and Eve didn't actually happen as it says in the Bible, but that the essence of the story, that man fell from God's grace because of sin, was true. A priest also told me that the big bang theory and evolution were both true and don't contradict the Bible. Overall, I prefer my religious education to the one Is and Sam will get.

[Someone Out There]

31 minutes ago, BernRul said:

A priest also told me that the big bang theory and evolution were both true and don't contradict the Bible. Overall, I prefer my religious education to the one Is and Sam will get. 

Personally I don't get why people think that the story of creation contradicts scientific theory.  Admittedly the order is out in some parts, but if you take the days of creation as allegories for what occurred (a day could reference millions or billions of years) it mostly aligns with current scientific understanding of what occurred.

For evolution if you take living items in the world having free will then things will live or die based on those choices.  Or hey, if you even want to go further saying that god has a hand in everything, what is there to say that god doesn't make nudges here and there that have flow on effects.

I will admit that my bible knowledge is limited though...

[Frumper]

I learned all kinds of bible verses as a kid.  My kindergarten class even recited the Lords Prayer at our graduation (I doubt every kid knew every word, but I definitely did).  Even though I'm no longer a believer, I am really grateful for the religious/biblical education I got growing up.  I can't tell you how many times it came in handy as an English lit major when I could recognize biblical allusions that a lot of my classmates didn't catch.  I also memorized poetry, things like the Gettysburg Address, etc., and I have gotten a lot of value from knowing those things as well.  YMMV of course.

(Also when we learned to recite all of the books of the bible in 4th grade Sunday School the teacher made each kid a batch of peanut butter fudge - so that was a significant benefit too.)

[melon]

I had a partial hysterectomy.I never knew there were such risks,either.I really did not want to have it done,but after monitoring me for several months,it's what my OB-Gyn recommended.I had uterine fibroids,excessive bleeding during my peroids,and my uterus was enlarged.And to top it all off,after having three big babies vaginally,the dr had to cut me for my hysterectomy.The best thing about it all,was not having my period anymore.

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, Someone Out There said:

Personally I don't get why people think that the story of creation contradicts scientific theory.  Admittedly the order is out in some parts, but if you take the days of creation as allegories for what occurred (a day could reference millions or billions of years) it mostly aligns with current scientific understanding of what occurred.

For evolution if you take living items in the world having free will then things will live or die based on those choices.  Or hey, if you even want to go further saying that god has a hand in everything, what is there to say that god doesn't make nudges here and there that have flow on effects.

I will admit that my bible knowledge is limited though...

I think South Park had a great answer to the creationism/evolution debate in that episode they had about atheists. They said maybe evolution was the answer to how and not the answer to why. I always liked that as someone who believes in evolution and in God. 

 

ETA: I thought this was fascinating. Someone on reddit actually called Cross Church to get more information on this program that Ofjill is enrolled in, and taking actual classes isn't even a part of it. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/8ld9q3/dericks_ministry_degree_and_desperation_aka_is/

[squiddysquid]

29 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I think South Park had a great answer to the creationism/evolution debate in that episode they had about atheists. They said maybe evolution was the answer to how and not the answer to why. I always liked that as someone who believes in evolution and in God. 

 

ETA: I thought this was fascinating. Someone on reddit actually called Cross Church to get more information on this program that Ofjill is enrolled in, and taking actual classes isn't even a part of it. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/8ld9q3/dericks_ministry_degree_and_desperation_aka_is/

Do you mean this one?

South Park - Mr.Garrison's Evolution Theory

[2manyKidzzz]

13 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Ha, my parents had me memorize a lot of Bible verses too. I could recite Psalms 23 and 91 when I was 2. I understood some of it, but not all. With the line "surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life" I imagined two girls named Shirley Goodness and Mercy following me everywhere.

I actually still like to memorize things as a mental exercise. My latest thing is memorizing all the world leaders. It's a list that keeps changing pretty often too. (Did you know that San Marino has two Captains Regent at a time and they serve for six months? That means that in one calendar year there are six different people who serve as one of the leaders of the country.) I like to recite it along with the world capitals while I'm falling asleep.

You do this, and I fall asleep wondering if when I go to Wegmans the next day, there will be those great sugar cookies with icing. 

[Rachel333]

2 hours ago, BernRul said:

Gotta disagree. At Izzy's age, the only things he should be memorizing are lyrics to fun songs, how to write his name, and the ABCs. And even then, it's not so much memorizing as recognizing the way language sounds and associating the sounds with letters.

Memorization can be helpful, like with times tables, but thinking logically, creatively, and comprehending a topic on a deeper level are all way more important. Children should be taught to think in those other ways, with memorization being a by product.  For example, this is how multiplication works and why we do it, and after you master that it helps to memorize the times tables to make more advanced math problems easier. But memorization on its own should never be taught.

Memorizing the Bible is weird to me. I went to Catholic school and we never once had to memorize the Bible. We learned to interpret the Bible, learned about the context in which it was written, read and discussed stories in it, and learned not to take it literally. I was straight up told that Adam and Eve didn't actually happen as it says in the Bible, but that the essence of the story, that man fell from God's grace because of sin, was true. A priest also told me that the big bang theory and evolution were both true and don't contradict the Bible. Overall, I prefer my religious education to the one Is and Sam will get.

It might be weird to you, but memorizing scripture is extremely typical for conservative Christians and people in other religions, like Islam where memorization is really emphasized. In the past it was normal for people to memorize other things too, like poetry.

I just don't think it's going to hurt Israel at this point to memorize scripture. I believe he's also being taught letters and other things so I really don't think he's being taught memorization only.

It would be nice if he were in a family that didn't put such importance on scripture, but he is, and there's a difference between "not ideal" and actively harmful. Of all the things about his upbringing that are harmful to him this just isn't it.

[ShesCrafty]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I think South Park had a great answer to the creationism/evolution debate in that episode they had about atheists. They said maybe evolution was the answer to how and not the answer to why. I always liked that as someone who believes in evolution and in God. 

 

ETA: I thought this was fascinating. Someone on reddit actually called Cross Church to get more information on this program that Ofjill is enrolled in, and taking actual classes isn't even a part of it. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/8ld9q3/dericks_ministry_degree_and_desperation_aka_is/

That is interesting.  So for 12 grand, he basically got three free vacations and free housing for a year. Much less than what I pay, with money I make at an actual JOB. Not to mention, he has an excuse for why can’t work, he’s too busy with “bible school”. But it’s all coming to an end soon and he’s scrambling. What a fucking grifter. 

[Rachel333]

10 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

You do this, and I fall asleep wondering if when I go to Wegmans the next day, there will be those great sugar cookies with icing. 

Ha, well it's mostly so my mind doesn't wander too much. I find it really calming.

[karen77]

13 minutes ago, ShesCrafty said:

That is interesting.  So for 12 grand, he basically got three free vacations and free housing for a year. Much less than what I pay, with money I make at an actual JOB. Not to mention, he has an excuse for why can’t work, he’s too busy with “bible school”. But it’s all coming to an end soon and he’s scrambling. What a fucking grifter. 

When does it end?? I can't remember when he started! 

[Edhelfin]

Israel will memorize more verses in the future and at one point, will be asking questions regarding their meaning. The interpretation they will give him will be where the danger starts. His mind will start to be "shaped" very early on. Memorizing nursery songs etc are not harmful but this indoctrinating process of question-answer exchange may be. I do not trust that the guy who wore a suit and used a Powerpoint presentation while addressing children will adjust answers according to Izzy's age or tone down the fire and brimstone talk. His interpretation would be literal and he will not say some things may be metaphorical. So in the hands of the Dill... sorry Duggars, memorizing verses is a dangerous tool. So is a car seat, a blanket or a buggy.

[PennySycamore]

Did anyone else notice that in that Twitter pic of Ofjill post-voting that it was in reverse?  His wedding ring appeared to be on the right hand and the sticker said (roughly) "I betoV".

[nickelodeon]

All the sunday school and Wednesday-night kids' programs I attended involved a lot of memorization (Bible verses, the Children's Catechism, the names of the Disciples, ASL versions of hymns, etc. etc.) It is the #1 happenin' pastime for evangelical younglings.

[KelseyAnn]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

It might be weird to you, but memorizing scripture is extremely typical for conservative Christians and people in other religions, like Islam where memorization is really emphasized. In the past it was normal for people to memorize other things too, like poetry.

I just don't think it's going to hurt Israel at this point to memorize scripture. I believe he's also being taught letters and other things so I really don't think he's being taught memorization only.

It would be nice if he were in a family that didn't put such importance on scripture, but he is, and there's a difference between "not ideal" and actively harmful. Of all the things about his upbringing that are harmful to him this just isn't it.

It's not harmful that he is memorizing things, but I just worry about the method being used to enforce that memorization. 

[TheOneAndOnly]

I suspect the memorization thing was helpful to anyone called to preach who couldn't read. 

[Alisamer]

I don't mind some memorization, and learning bible verses is extremely common in children raised in ANY Christian church, I think. I'm not surprised or dismayed at all at Izzy learning some verses, assuming they are sticking with the usual ones for kids and not pulling out some of the terrible ones.

I have most of the prologue to the Canterbury Tales memorized in the original wording, still. Had to learn it for senior English in high school and again in Freshman English in college, and it's stuck. 

[Georgiana]

I memorized the Catholic mass young enough that I don't recall ever NOT having the whole thing memorized.  I used to say it along with the priest, which my parents tolerated because honestly, you can't be TOO picky with how little kids amuse themselves during something so long and boring as the mass. 

I still have Langston Hughes' Harlem, Shelley's Ozymandias, parts of T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men and Prufrock, and excerpts from Their Eyes Were Watching God memorized from high school.  I honestly come back to them so many times to frame experiences and situations.  They're incredible insights into the human condition, I feel, and I keep them with me like linguistic security blankets.  I didn't want to memorize them at the time, but I am happy I did.  Especially Harlem, which I have quoted more than once on FJ.   

That being said, I also have quite a bit of Shakespeare floating around in my brain, which I have NEVER used except to be an ass, so I do feel I could have done without that memorization.  Hamlet is one of my favorite works, but I really don't NEED his soliloquy taking up brain space, thanks.  

That all being said, memorization is actually a very poor method of obtaining useful knowledge.  Not only does it have an incredibly low rate of retention over time, it also is not generally stored in a way that makes the data contained useful or even available to the brain in problem solving. Memorization =/= learning.  Doesn't make it a useless skill, but it's not as important as many people think it is...especially in an age of modern technology where we can store information in devices instead of needing them stored in the brain.  

[justoneoftwo]

Someone was saying memorization is valuable for learning and is undervalued now.  Just a question, as someone who places basically no value on it, what is the value of memorization?  I don't mean memorization because you've used something enough you just know it (I can make waffles without the recipe because my kid wants waffles at least twice a week) but actually actively trying to memorize something?

[VelociRapture]

7 minutes ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

I suspect the memorization thing was helpful to anyone called to preach who couldn't read. 

Three pages from now, someone who read this is going to be claiming that they obviously have no intentions of teaching him to read because they’re having him memorize passages. “Why would they need to teach him to read when he’s already memorized the stuff they think is important?!” 

(I love FJ so much, but I don’t think any of us can pretend it’s not like a giant game of Telephone sometimes. Lol!)

But anyways, I think I agree with @Edhelfinthis time. The memorization of bible passages itself doesn’t strike me as a big issue, even when Izzy is this young. What I do think is an issue is any question and answers they may/may not be doing with him as well. Its one thing if it’s an activity meant to hone critical thinking (the way analyzing a piece of literature can), but I don’t see the Dillard’s (especially Derick) using it that way. I see it as just another opportunity for abuse of a position of power within the cult. 

[Bad Wolf]

2 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Someone was saying memorization is valuable for learning and is undervalued now.  Just a question, as someone who places basically no value on it, what is the value of memorization?  I don't mean memorization because you've used something enough you just know it (I can make waffles without the recipe because my kid wants waffles at least twice a week) but actually actively trying to memorize something?

Well, I just applied for US citizenship, so I'm busy memorizing for the civics test. Can't think of any way to get around it.

[justoneoftwo]

13 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Well, I just applied for US citizenship, so I'm busy memorizing for the civics test. Can't think of any way to get around it.

This makes me wonder if the test is the problem   

[libgirl2]

10 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I'm having a hard time being outraged by this. I think there can be some mental benefits to memorization and it is somewhat of a skill so I don't see what it would hurt to have a kid memorize things and start practicing that skill early. Bible verses aren't particularly useful, no (at least IMO--obviously they would feel differently!), but I doubt it's taking the place of anything more important either, especially at his age.

I actually kind of think memorization is undervalued these days. It's definitely true that comprehension is far more important than rote memory, but sometimes you do just need to memorize things if you want to learn. It's not just one or the other.

I don't have a problem with memorization but the kid is three. Is there nothing more appropriate, yet Christian, based that he could memorize? Or a few lines from a Psalm? 

5 hours ago, BernRul said:

Gotta disagree. At Izzy's age, the only things he should be memorizing are lyrics to fun songs, how to write his name, and the ABCs. And even then, it's not so much memorizing as recognizing the way language sounds and associating the sounds with letters.

Memorization can be helpful, like with times tables, but thinking logically, creatively, and comprehending a topic on a deeper level are all way more important. Children should be taught to think in those other ways, with memorization being a by product.  For example, this is how multiplication works and why we do it, and after you master that it helps to memorize the times tables to make more advanced math problems easier. But memorization on its own should never be taught.

Memorizing the Bible is weird to me. I went to Catholic school and we never once had to memorize the Bible. We learned to interpret the Bible, learned about the context in which it was written, read and discussed stories in it, and learned not to take it literally. I was straight up told that Adam and Eve didn't actually happen as it says in the Bible, but that the essence of the story, that man fell from God's grace because of sin, was true. A priest also told me that the big bang theory and evolution were both true and don't contradict the Bible. Overall, I prefer my religious education to the one Is and Sam will get.

I went to Catholic school for 8 years and I don't remember memorizing portions of the Bible other than the Commandments or the Beatitudes. And there was discussion about the meaning of them. Though we were told Adam and Eve were fact. You must be younger than me! 

I think when you are talking about something as complex and debated as The Bible, there should be more than parroting a quote back but an actual understanding (or attempt at) of what you are reading. I honestly wonder how many of the Duggars have enough of an education to really "read" the Bible and delve into its meaning.