Zach and Whitney Bates: Part 5

[Hisey]

13 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

@Hisey while I think they would.be strict with both, I think a bio kid would be seen as a miracle after all the struggling and prayers and it could make trainings start later or be slightly softer. On the other side, an adoption would be absolutely second option and I see them behaving passive agressive about that. 

Michael wants a newborn so badly and it's not easy to adopt a newborn. If she is given an older baby or a toddler, she won't fulfil her dream. In addition, I wonder if they would feel comfortable with a non white baby for example.

Yes, some people (many people probably) consider their adopted kids as treasures, but adoption is not an easy way, especially when this way is chosen because infertility.

I'm not sure what your experience with adoption is, but I know many, many adoptive families. I also have two adopted kids myself. I've also worked in adoption.

Yes, many people who adopt after infertility feel disappointment that they cannot have a biological child. I'm sure, if Michael never gives birth, she'll always be somewhat sad that she did not.

However, from what I've seen, once a family has an adopted child in their arms, everything else fades into the background. The parents become busy with the nuts and bolts of parenting. They are busy bathing their baby, picking out toys for her in the store, driving her to kindergarten, praising her artwork.

I've never seen an adoptive family that acted like kid was "second best" in any way. Quite the opposite. (I do realize that adopting kids with serious challenges is different and sometimes leads to regret/disruption) Instead, they seem to fall head over heels in love with their child, and view that child as the miracle she is. 

If Michael and Brandon decide to adopt, I am sure they will see their kid as "theirs", because it is theirs. And that's what worries me. They will raise it as they've been raised, because they believe that's right. And though they don't show it on the TV show, part of that raising is harsh physical discipline.

[Melissa1977]

@Hisey  Unfortunately I know lots of families struggling with that second-chance situation and infertility trauma and not easily bonding with the adopted kids (despite most of them look happy on the surface). In fact, there is a long list of couples who were trying to adopt and who are now trying the surrogate way because it's getting easier and cheaper... and they openly say they want a bio kid. They weren't going to adopt with an open mind and it's not fair for the adopted child. 

I don't agree with the surrogate option but I also don't agree adoption is for everybody. Well, parenthood itself is not for everybody, but adoption is even more challenging!

 

[llucie]

5 hours ago, Hisey said:

They are being filmed. The camera crew was about five feet away from them.

They are not recorded all the time. They barelly make it to the episode, so i dont think the recording takes that much, maybe an hour or two. I think kids are bad liers (as we have seen with them spilling the beans on secrets a couple of times). If they were unhappy to go there it would show on their faces or on their actions. But if anything they seem happier at Michaellas that at their own home.

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

@Hisey  Unfortunately I know lots of families struggling with that second-chance situation and infertility trauma and not easily bonding with the adopted kids (despite most of them look happy on the surface).

 

The problem is, you are seeing the adoption as a "second chance situation." And you are seeing the kids as "adopted kids." You definitely should not adopt yourself. No child should be viewed as a "second chance" for a couple of infertile adults. The purpose of adoption is to provide a home for a child, not a "second chance" for the parents. No wonder it is so unsuccessful in the families you describe. 

And you know "lots" of families like this, really? Do you work in adoption or do you just happen to know "lots" of couple who a) are infertile, b) choose to adopt and c) don't like the kid they get. Because, as a social worker, I do post-placement visits with adoptive families and their new child I spend hours with them and write up extensive reports. .. and I've never yet seen a family who wasn't over the moon about their child.

[Melissa1977]

@Hisey  I've been in contact with infertile couples but I don't work in adoptions. Anyway, they say adoption was not an easy decision for them. Specially because in my country, both national and international adoption are very long and hard and it's really difficult to get a baby. And yes, most find difficult to bond at the beginning with an older child.

I'm using the expression "adopted kids" because we are discussing adoption here. I find it difficult to talk about adoptions avoiding words like adopted or bio.

Secondly, you do not know anything about me and advising me not to adopt is out of place. 

You know the happy shiny part of adoption and I know the shadowed one. Both are real.

[feministxtian]

One friend of mine is the oldest of 4 children. 3 of them are adopted then they had the "miracle baby". I've known this family ALL my life, and there was no favoring one over the other at all. The mom and dad were utterly crazy, great fun, and loved those kids beyond reason. All 4 are grown now and still tight as hell. One of the girls went thru a sort of messy divorce and the X got a face full of the other sister and BOTH brothers.

My step-daughter's sister in law and husband adopted twin girls. The girls are African American and mom & dad are glow in the dark white. The 3 girls together are flat out adorable (the twins and my step-daughter's daughter).

Adoption, like so many other things can be good or bad, and 99% depends on attitude.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't want Michael to adopt or give birth. She and Brandon seem really hard-assed,and I pity the poor kid who is subject to their blanket-training, PVC-pipe-wielding childbearing methods.

This. Michael stated on the show that she was glad she was raised "strict" and will raise her kids just as strict. No child deserves that. Infertility stuggles be damned. That happiness means a child will suffer.

[llucie]

10 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

 

 

This. Michael stated on the show that she was glad she was raised "strict" and will raise her kids just as strict. No child deserves that. Infertility stuggles be damned. That happiness means a child will suffer.

 

To be fair i doubt that she has the concept of strict that you have, and i dont think by strict she was meaning  what you think she was meaning. Puting rules and limits on kids, thats what she actually refered too, and that is considered good for child development actually, and is whats recomended for all parents, fundies or not.

[formergothardite]

16 minutes ago, llucie said:

Puting rules and limits on kids, thats what she actually refered too,

Did she state that or did she just say strict while saying she was happy with the way she was raises? I haven't seen the clip. And if she is wanting to use rules and limits on her children like were used on her, that will not be developmentally appropriate. Kelly used terrible and abusive baby/child training methods on at least her older children(and she pretty much neglects the younger ones even with basic safety). Between the baby/child training, the massive amounts of work, and the raising siblings from a young age, I would say almost nothing in the way Michael was raised was good for child development and it is not good if she looks on how Kelly raised them as a good example for parenting. Plus they are still very, very deep into IBLP and despite the recent changes in the cult, it still has some fucked up teachings about children and parenting. 

[just_ordinary]

^^ yes and yes. People are fast to point out when posters start interpreting superficial pants or somewhat blurry statements as „OMG they are totally Fundie light/leaving Fundamentalism“ but Michael seems to get a pass because of her fertility struggles.

I will stick to what she does and says even though it is only through the lense of social media and the show. There could be more but know one here knows if it’s actually good or bad. There should be no, „but what she actually meant was...“ when she didn’t say it. We can speculate/hope/root but we will never really know.

I am truly sorry for all the children in those families. No child should suffer from those physical and emotional abusive „training“ methods.

[Hisey]

23 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

The evangelical crowd faced some pushback on abortion, i.e."Would you be willing to adopt these children or just stand around and preach?" Some were shamed into adopting to prove they really cared. Others saw it as extension of their "white savior" complex adopting from Africa and China. Others, I am sure, had the best of intentions and wanted nothing more than to give a child a loving home. The book, Child Catchers by Kathryn Joyce, was very eye opening on this. The biggest revelation being that many of the orphans are not technically orphans. The Pearls are mentioned in a chapter and Micheal Pearl was quoted by the author. 

A child cannot legally be adopted into the US unless it is proven that they are orphaned, or that their biological relatives can't or won't care for them.

[Pecansforeveryone]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

A child cannot legally be adopted into the US unless it is proven that they are orphaned, or that their biological relatives can't or won't care for them.

The author referenced cases of children from Ethiopia being allowed to come because their family believed their children were being there for temporary schooling. The loving adoptive parents were devastated to find out these children wanted to go back at some point to their biological parents. Not all countries have the resources and infrastructure to properly vet adoption. Details are lost in translation. Not all international adoption agencies are equally credible. Child Catchers is not an indictment of all international adoption. It focuses on the shortcomings and lack of oversight that do exist in some cases. 

(The author, Kathryn Joyce, wrote a book on the Quiverful movement that I hope to read.) 

[mollysmom]

9 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

^^ yes and yes. People are fast to point out when posters start interpreting superficial pants or somewhat blurry statements as „OMG they are totally Fundie light/leaving Fundamentalism“ but Michael seems to get a pass because of her fertility struggles.

I will stick to what she does and says even though it is only through the lense of social media and the show. There could be more but know one here knows if it’s actually good or bad. There should be no, „but what she actually meant was...“ when she didn’t say it. We can speculate/hope/root but we will never really know.

I am truly sorry for all the children in those families. No child should suffer from those physical and emotional abusive „training“ methods.

I agree. And chances are, many of them will suffer with that trauma for the rest of their lives. I am 40 & still in counselling from the physical & emotional abuse I endured as a child and as a teenager "all in the name of Jesus" of course.  

[VineHeart137]

Whitney shared pictures from the vow renewal and explained that part of the reason they did it was so that her parents could be involved, since they have reconciled since her wedding.

 

[Exjw2015deed]

I hope on the show Whitney explains further what happened because I’m nosey.

[caitiedid313]

I’m estranged from my narcissistic and borderline mother, who was and is extremely abusive and refuses to seek treatment for her personality disorder, and as a result I don’t have very much contact with any family because she forbids it. I hope Whitney wasn’t guilted by her in laws into allowing unsafe/toxic relationships back into her life. If I recall, she was in foster care or the equivalent because of problems at home.

 

[Coconut Flan]

I'm concerned that she seems to take all the blame for her lack of relationship with her parents.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I don’t know the story but I still don’t like that Whitney is taking all the blame for this. I’m not saying that her parents are horrible or abusive, but she’s not entirely to blame. She was underage when she made “mistakes.” I’m guessing they are mistakes many teens make. Her parents probably didn’t handle it as well as they could have. I hope her parents have admitted to their own mistakes as well. 

[Illmarryyoujana]

Whitney’s post made me so sad! She was a child living apart from her parents. I can’t imagine whatever happened is solely her fault. The part about them extending her forgiveness upset me most. I understand we don’t know all that happened, but I do hope that she forgives herself, for what may very well me absolutely nothing at all. That’s a lot to carry and she shouldn’t have to. 

[kmachete14]

Time for some snark . . . 

I think this "vow renewal" is more like the wedding Whitney always wanted. She has on a beautiful "non-modest" dress (by the Bates' standard when she got married), her bio-parents are in attendance, she has a professional photographer and flattering colors, her husband has "glowed up," the setting is idyllic, her bridesmaids are her true friends, etc. 

While I don't think this was all a stunt to fit in with Whitney's perfectly curated instagram lifestyle (how she portrays it) I have really never see an vow renewal that basically looks like another wedding before and it makes me wonder! It also fits her marketing scheme better . . . it's hard to lure new girls to fundydom these days when the promise of a "perfect marriage" must mean a tacky wedding with a size too-large dress. 

[Fun Undies]

Spoiler

Hi everyone

sorry I haven't been around, just life, moves, chronic health issues, etc *yada yada*

anyways, are my glasses deceiving me, or is Whitney's dress got a thigh high slit?!  Gurrllll get it, get it 

Zoomed in pics for reference, under spoiler:

**there's two pics, but mobile isn't letting me sort out where the spoilers are going in the post, sorry!**

Spoiler

 

[neurogirl]

Whitney does look stunning. I’m guessing it was “6 in one hand, half dozen in the other” for bio parents presence vs actual wedding she wanted. 

Poor Anna needs a wedding redo too but only if it’s not a redemption vow renewal with Turd.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, neurogirl said:

Whitney does look stunning. I’m guessing it was “6 in one hand, half dozen in the other” for bio parents presence vs actual wedding she wanted. 

Poor Anna needs a wedding redo too but only if it’s not a redemption vow renewal with Turd.

No no no!!! He will try to sing again!!!

[Illmarryyoujana]

3 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

Time for some snark . . . 

I think this "vow renewal" is more like the wedding Whitney always wanted. She has on a beautiful "non-modest" dress (by the Bates' standard when she got married), her bio-parents are in attendance, she has a professional photographer and flattering colors, her husband has "glowed up," the setting is idyllic, her bridesmaids are her true friends, etc. 

While I don't think this was all a stunt to fit in with Whitney's perfectly curated instagram lifestyle (how she portrays it) I have really never see an vow renewal that basically looks like another wedding before and it makes me wonder! It also fits her marketing scheme better . . . it's hard to lure new girls to fundydom these days when the promise of a "perfect marriage" must mean a tacky wedding with a size too-large dress. 

I do agree that this was her chance to have her dream wedding, but every vow renewal I’ve ever been to for a young couple has looked the same as a traditional wedding—normally because they didn’t get their dream day the first time. 

2 hours ago, Fun Undies said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hi everyone

sorry I haven't been around, just life, moves, chronic health issues, etc *yada yada*

anyways, are my glasses deceiving me, or is Whitney's dress got a thigh high slit?!  Gurrllll get it, get it 

Zoomed in pics for reference, under spoiler:

**there's two pics, but mobile isn't letting me sort out where the spoilers are going in the post, sorry!**

  Hide contents

 

Look at the picture of her and Zach. Girl is showing LEG! 

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, caitiedid313 said:

I’m estranged from my narcissistic and borderline mother, who was and is extremely abusive and refuses to seek treatment for her personality disorder, and as a result I don’t have very much contact with any family because she forbids it. I hope Whitney wasn’t guilted by her in laws into allowing unsafe/toxic relationships back into her life. If I recall, she was in foster care or the equivalent because of problems at home.

 

We honestly don’t know if she was actually in foster care or not. Whitney has kept very quiet about the whole situation until now, as was (and is) her right, and both sets of parents have publicly stayed quiet as well. All we know for sure is that she somehow ended up living with the Owens family, that her biological parents weren’t present at her wedding, and that they were back in her life by the time Bradley was born less than a year later. 

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I don’t know the story but I still don’t like that Whitney is taking all the blame for this. I’m not saying that her parents are horrible or abusive, but she’s not entirely to blame. She was underage when she made “mistakes.” I’m guessing they are mistakes many teens make. Her parents probably didn’t handle it as well as they could have. I hope her parents have admitted to their own mistakes as well. 

Yes, this exactly. I feel uncomfortable speculating simply because Whit was a minor at the time and whatever happened between them must have been very difficult for her to deal with. The fact remains though that she was a child and her parents were adults. Maybe Whit is being honest and she did do things that drove a wedge between them, but that doesn’t mean her parents don’t bear responsibility too. 

I hope for Whitney’s sake that there was no abuse involved. I’m not really sure what could have driven such a wedge between them that she either voluntarily moved in with the Owens family or was placed there somehow, but I imagine it would be something serious. 

39 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

No no no!!! He will try to sing again!!!

Why are you trying to give me nightmares tonight? Did I wrong you somehow? This is just cruel.