Erin and Chad 3: Welcoming Baby Everly

[QuiverDance]

21 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

They were for a while. I don’t know if they are anymore.

For anyone interested, this appears to be the Church Erin tagged in the post. I linked to the “What We Believe” page:

http://clearspringsbaptist.net/about-us/what-we-believe

Paraphrased highlights:

1. The Bible is 100% accurate y’all!

2. God is all knowing and all powerful (he sees you when you’re sleeping, he knows when you’re awake...) 

3. Who is your daddy and what does he do? Your daddy is God and he rules everything and everyone.

4. But God is also the Son.

5. And he’s the Holy Spirit too. Wait. How are we monotheistic again?

6. The gift of gender is part of the goodness of God’s creation... so, Transgender people need not apply. 

7. People are sinful from the moment they can commit moral transgressions - so sorry little toddlers, but you going to Hell if you don’t pray hard enough. 

8. Every person of every race is worthy of respect and Christian love. I’m assuming (based off a later portion) they’re still ok harassing people who aren’t Christian though.

9. Salvation is only possible through accepting Jesus. Pretty standard for Christians.

10. Believing in God and repenting of sin is necessary for salvation. See above.

11. Peace is better than war and Christians should strive to put an end to war. Oversimplistic and maybe naive, but I don’t think I can snark on this one much. 

12. Church should be separate from the state. The state is responsible for ensuring religious liberty and shouldn’t favor any specific ecclesiastic group or denomination. The state has no right to impose taxes or penalties for spiritual beliefs at any time... so, basically, don’t punish them for not baking cakes for gays?

13. Marriage is between a man and a woman. So no gays. Sorry, not sorry.  

14. Husband and wife are equals before God... cool story bro - except the husband controls the family and the wife should go along with what he says. 

I was raised Catholic, so I was baptized as an infant and that bothers me sometimes to be honest. I respect my parents (and every parent) for doing what they felt was best, but it bugs me that I had no say in something so important. To be honest, it’s one of the major reasons why I wouldn’t be able to return to the Catholic faith. I want my daughter (and future children) to have a say in whether they associate with religion or not. 

I do find it interesting that some Protestant denominations do baptize as infants though. I stood as Godmother for my nephew when he was baptized into the Episcopalian faith at 3 months old and I think my cousin had her son baptized in the Methodist faith when he was a toddler. It’s interesting to see how the various denominations are similar and different.

I have a slightly different take, so I’m glad to see your post. I was raised catholic as well and left the church when I married a divorced Protestant and felt very alienated from and by my faith. When we had our daughter I wanted to get her christened and he refused to do so in the Catholic Church. We compromised. My daughter is baptized in the Methodist church. We are not church goers My son came along and.... is not baptized at all. After their dad and I divorced, he remarried and had a third baby. That kid was baptized as a catholic recently. This bothers me so much, mostly because it feels a little like revenge, and I feel like my own son has been neglected somehow. I talked to him about it, though, and he has no desire to be baptized at all. So... I’m leaving  it with him. He is 9, and I feel like he can make that choice now.

[FundieCentral]

I think the thing with infant baptism is that it's really not about profession of belief - unlike the doctrine of evangelical churches of believer's baptism. 

My argument pro-infant baptism would be the following: Baptizing an infant welcomes the infant into the church - and the church, that's you, and me, and the parents, and the priest, and everyone else in the family and the parish. An infant baptism for this reason is not making the infant do or believe anything - it is the ritual of the rest of the church and the family and the friends coming together and saying yes, we welcome this child into our midst and make a promise (to God) to raise it well, love it dearly, and teach it about God (not force it, just teach). Whether or not the child wants to be a part of the church is a decision made later - at first communion (on a smaller scale) and then properly at confirmation. For this reason, I think I want to baptize my children. Has nothing to do with their future faith, and everything to do with me & everyone else who will be involved in raising my children committing to do our utmost best for this child, and asking for God's help (assuming he's alive and well) because that can be nothing but a benefit in this difficult task, from my perspective
 

Now, usual disclaimers apply - of course not everyone plans to raise their child within such a church community, and obviously people aren't all Catholic, and individuals may interpret the doctrine differently etc. etc.

EDIT: Their church has a female staff member who is an airman in the air force, has a Bachelor's in Business Administration, and wears pants. 10/10 would recommend.  To be fair: she is the only one, and she is on staff with her husband. http://clearspringsbaptist.net/about-us/staff/jeremy-tara-kidwell

[QuiverDance]

15 minutes ago, FundieCentral said:

I think the thing with infant baptism is that it's really not about profession of belief - unlike the doctrine of evangelical churches of believer's baptism. 

My argument pro-infant baptism would be the following: Baptizing an infant welcomes the infant into the church - and the church, that's you, and me, and the parents, and the priest, and everyone else in the family and the parish. An infant baptism for this reason is not making the infant do or believe anything - it is the ritual of the rest of the church and the family and the friends coming together and saying yes, we welcome this child into our midst and make a promise (to God) to raise it well, love it dearly, and teach it about God (not force it, just teach). Whether or not the child wants to be a part of the church is a decision made later - at first communion (on a smaller scale) and then properly at confirmation. For this reason, I think I want to baptize my children. Has nothing to do with their future faith, and everything to do with me & everyone else who will be involved in raising my children committing to do our utmost best for this child, and asking for God's help (assuming he's alive and well) because that can be nothing but a benefit in this difficult task, from my perspective
 

Now, usual disclaimers apply - of course not everyone plans to raise their child within such a church community, and obviously people aren't all Catholic, and individuals may interpret the doctrine differently etc. etc.

EDIT: Their church has a female staff member who is an airman in the air force, has a Bachelor's in Business Administration, and wears pants. 10/10 would recommend.  To be fair: she is the only one, and she is on staff with her husband. http://clearspringsbaptist.net/about-us/staff/jeremy-tara-kidwell

I think this sums it up nicely. It’s why I feel so weird about my son not being baptized... it’s like he was overlooked. It makes me feel quite awful even though it does not bother him. 

[formergothardite]

23 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Peace is better than war and Christians should strive to put an end to war. Oversimplistic and maybe naive, but I don’t think I can snark on this one much. 

I can snark because they say the only remedy for war is for everyone in the world to become their version of Christian. The only thing the world needs in their opinion is for all people and nations to be ruled by what they view is God's teachings. They aren't saying people should strive to end war, but that people should strive to make the world follow their version of God's law and that will end war because everyone will be obeying them. 

13 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Baptism is what makes one a member of the church so people going through an inquiry process should not be baptized.

Baptism really is important for church membership. When we switched churches, we had to get a letter from the other church to make our baptisms go from one church to the other. When we went from IFB to SB, the IFB church wouldn't send a letter so they considered making us get rebaptized.  

[nausicaa]

4 hours ago, FundieCentral said:

My argument pro-infant baptism would be the following: Baptizing an infant welcomes the infant into the church - and the church, that's you, and me, and the parents, and the priest, and everyone else in the family and the parish. An infant baptism for this reason is not making the infant do or believe anything - it is the ritual of the rest of the church and the family and the friends coming together and saying yes, we welcome this child into our midst and make a promise (to God) to raise it well, love it dearly, and teach it about God (not force it, just teach).

Yes, infant baptism used to bother me, but then I began to look at it from a sociological perspective. 

Nearly all cultures have some sort of "Welcome to the Tribe!" event for newborns in which the community formally acknowledges the new addition to their group under the auspices of religion.  Muslims have aqeeqah, (most Christians) have baptisms, Jewish boys undergo a bris.  A lot of East Asian countries and some Buddhists have a celebration after the baby turns one month old.  When I looked at it as more of a cultural tradition with some respective religious overtones, I was more comfortable with it, especially since I'm an agnostic attending an Episcopalian church and as a result have to to participate in many christenings (which are held during the service).

[pandora]

3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Yes, infant baptism used to bother me, but then I began to look at it from a sociological perspective. 

Nearly all cultures have some sort of "Welcome to the Tribe!" event for newborns in which the community formally acknowledges the new addition to their group under the auspices of religion.  Muslims have aqeeqah, (most Christians) have baptisms, Jewish boys undergo a bris.  A lot of East Asian countries and some Buddhists have a celebration after the baby turns one month old.  When I looked at it as more of a cultural tradition with some respective religious overtones, I was more comfortable with it, especially since I'm an agnostic attending an Episcopalian church and as a result have to to participate in many christenings (which are held during the service).

Well that certainly piqued my interest! If you're comfortable sharing, I'd love to hear more about how you came to practicing your spirituality that way/your experience in church as an agnostic- do you discuss it with your church family? No worries if you'd rather not share, I know it's a pretty personal topic for some people. 

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

I have a slightly different take, so I’m glad to see your post. I was raised catholic as well and left the church when I married a divorced Protestant and felt very alienated from and by my faith. When we had our daughter I wanted to get her christened and he refused to do so in the Catholic Church. We compromised. My daughter is baptized in the Methodist church. We are not church goers My son came along and.... is not baptized at all. After their dad and I divorced, he remarried and had a third baby. That kid was baptized as a catholic recently. This bothers me so much, mostly because it feels a little like revenge, and I feel like my own son has been neglected somehow. I talked to him about it, though, and he has no desire to be baptized at all. So... I’m leaving  it with him. He is 9, and I feel like he can make that choice now.

For what it’s worth, I’m sorry things worked out the way they did and that you’re worried your son feels left out because of it. Parenting can be really hard sometimes, especially when it comes to disagreements over religion. I think you’re doing a really good job of handling the situation with your son though. You’ve let him know the option is available if he wants it, but that you respect his right to decide for himself - and most importantly, you’ve stuck to your word by not pressuring him either way.

[victoriasponge]

I was baptised Catholic at the age of three to get me into Catholic school. Very godly of my (atheist) parents . To be fair to them they taught me all about different religions and never told me their beliefs. I went to church once a month until confirmation time when I decided not to get confirmed. Only found out after that my parents had been atheist all along. 

I’ve recently started going to a local CofE that’s pretty modern and student-centred. Want to fully explore it before I reject it for good. Their huge focus on church planting and conversion kind of infuriates me though, the preachers seem to think that everyone who isn’t Christian has never heard of Jesus. It’s the U.K, state schools have assemblies of a broadly Christian nature... they know. 

The people are lovely though. And the girl who’s been helping me out has been a really good listener instead of judging me for my agnosticism. So I guess I’m also an agnostic church goer? (Of a couple of months - mrsponge still doesn’t know, he’s very atheist)

[Alicja]

I think infant baptism is fine so long as the parents accept and recognize that their children may one day leave the religion. It's not like you're obligated to be a Catholic forever if you're baptized. The Catholic Church may say "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" but in reality, you yourself are the only one who can make the decision to actually practice a religion.

I plan on baptizing my future children in the Catholic Church, mostly for the reasons @nausicaa explained above, and it's also important to me culturally. 

[just_ordinary]

Just want to add that infant christening doesn’t have to be something rare in evangelical churches at all. In my country it is been done in almost all of them. The only ones who don’t are mostly independent evangelical churches which only make about 0,2% in our religious landscape. So there is no difference between Catholic and Protestant churches on that matter. Confirmation happens much later and a lot of young people choose not to do it and it is absolutely fine. And even if they do, most are never back into church again apart from Christmas. So being a member of a church basically means nothing. How you live it and how you identify is everything.

[QuiverDance]

My mother is bothered to the point of distraction by my decision to raise my children without religion.  I don't care.  I have mentioned this on the boards before, but as a lawyer, I have seen far too many cases of people associated with churches harming children.  I am very skeptical of youth programs in churches, which seem to attract adult "leaders" who lack maturity and want to be around young people for the wrong reasons.  I am wary of church communities who want children to attend services separately from their parents.  If my kids can't sit in the sanctuary with me for worship, I have no interest.  My babies aren't going to go trotting off every week with some stranger to be AT BEST indoctrinated into something or given information I haven't approved.  NOPE.

[melon]

2 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

My mother is bothered to the point of distraction by my decision to raise my children without religion.  I don't care.  I have mentioned this on the boards before, but as a lawyer, I have seen far too many cases of people associated with churches harming children.  I am very skeptical of youth programs in churches, which seem to attract adult "leaders" who lack maturity and want to be around young people for the wrong reasons.  I am wary of church communities who want children to attend services separately from their parents.  If my kids can't sit in the sanctuary with me for worship, I have no interest.  My babies aren't going to go trotting off every week with some stranger to be AT BEST indoctrinated into something or given information I haven't approved.  NOPE.

My mother was like that,too.She used to bitch at me every time she visited or I visited that I didn't take my boys to church,any longer.I had taken them to church,at one point,but grew tired of the hypocrisy.Even,if I had continued going to that church,my mother would have complained about that as well.Wrong denomination.She was very controlling,and it seemed like nothing I did was right.

[nausicaa]

16 hours ago, pandora said:

Well that certainly piqued my interest! If you're comfortable sharing, I'd love to hear more about how you came to practicing your spirituality that way/your experience in church as an agnostic- do you discuss it with your church family? No worries if you'd rather not share, I know it's a pretty personal topic for some people. 

It's an odd combination of the sacred and the profane. I was looking to make new friends and started going to some liberal Episcopalian churches. I thought of the services as more of a reflection and meditation time and enjoyed learning a lot of the church history and have always really liked the structure and tradition of a Catholic mass. Then I stumbled upon an Episcopal church not far from me with an active 20s and 30s group with pretty cool, not crazy people in it and before I knew it I was a member of the group. 

My church is really liberal (most of the priests are politically to the left of me), and also seems to attract some conservative, non-religious people who feel they need a church affiliation for their political career. In the 20s and 30s group alone, one member married an atheist and another is borderline agnostic. I've haven't yet come out and told anyone that I'm agnostic, but from some comments I've heard from other parishioners, there seems to be an unspoken understanding that there a good number of parishioners who struggle to believe in the resurrection and Biblical literalism, but think there are merits to the messages in the New Testament and enjoy the community and charity aspects of the church. 

[VelociRapture]

29 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

It's an odd combination of the sacred and the profane. I was looking to make new friends and started going to some liberal Episcopalian churches. I thought of the services as more of a reflection and meditation time and enjoyed learning a lot of the church history and have always really liked the structure and tradition of a Catholic mass. Then I stumbled upon an Episcopal church not far from me with an active 20s and 30s group with pretty cool, not crazy people in it and before I knew it I was a member of the group. 

My church is really liberal (most of the priests are politically to the left of me), and also seems to attract some conservative, non-religious people who feel they need a church affiliation for their political career. In the 20s and 30s group alone, one member married an atheist and another is borderline agnostic. I've haven't yet come out and told anyone that I'm agnostic, but from some comments I've heard from other parishioners, there seems to be an unspoken understanding that there a good number of parishioners who struggle to believe in the resurrection and Biblical literalism, but think there are merits to the messages in the New Testament and enjoy the community and charity aspects of the church. 

I attended a few services at an Episcopal Church in my town after my sister and BIL asked me to be their son’s Godmother. I didn’t have to, but I wanted a general idea of what his faith would be like so I could support them as they raised him as best I could. I found the people there very warm and inviting. My husband and I were open about not knowing what we believed in when we went to an after service coffee hour and the people there were really cool about that. No pressuring and no attempting to convert us - plus, I’m pretty sure the Episcopalian Church is geberally accepting of LGBTQ people and that means a lot to me since my brother is Trans and Bi. If we ever did decide to attend services regularly then it’d probably be there since it was a positive experience. I don’t think we will though. I don’t remember a time where I wasn’t quietly questioning the beliefs I was taught. It makes me sad because I do wish I had spiritual home, but I just don’t think I have the gift of faith.

(The Pastor at my BIL’s Church is the sweetest guy and looks like Santa, so if we lived closer to them I’d consider going there too.)

5 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

My mother is bothered to the point of distraction by my decision to raise my children without religion.  I don't care.  I have mentioned this on the boards before, but as a lawyer, I have seen far too many cases of people associated with churches harming children.  I am very skeptical of youth programs in churches, which seem to attract adult "leaders" who lack maturity and want to be around young people for the wrong reasons.  I am wary of church communities who want children to attend services separately from their parents.  If my kids can't sit in the sanctuary with me for worship, I have no interest.  My babies aren't going to go trotting off every week with some stranger to be AT BEST indoctrinated into something or given information I haven't approved.  NOPE.

I think this is a big part of what bothers me about raising my child with religion. I don’t doubt at all that there are many wonderful people of faith who just want to do some good in the world. I have several late family members who were Priests or Nuns and who honestly just wanted to help people... but I feel like the potential for the abuse of power within organized religion is a really big problem and a major stumbling block for my husband and I. I just don’t know if I’m capable of trusting other people with my child in that type of organization.

We’re very lucky though because our families have been pretty accepting of our choice so far. I was really worried about how my maternal grandparents would react, but they were surprisingly fine with it. My mom was shocked at first and did try to convince me otherwise, but she very quickly backed off after I explained it wasn’t open for discussion and she hasn’t pressured us since.

[Starrynight]

On 4/19/2018 at 12:32 PM, Illmarryyoujana said:

Most people are attracted to the people they decided to spend their lives with. I don’t think it’s superficial to admit that. In fact, like I said before, I think it’s healthy. Normally, though not always, people tend to stay attracted to their spouses as they age. My ex wife rarely commented on my looks and that made me feel horrible. On the other hand, she boosts her current girlfriends looks all the time. 

This was a few pages back but I wanted to say that I'm sorry your ex behaved this way. How hurtful 

[mollysmom]

9 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

My mother is bothered to the point of distraction by my decision to raise my children without religion.  I don't care.  I have mentioned this on the boards before, but as a lawyer, I have seen far too many cases of people associated with churches harming children.  I am very skeptical of youth programs in churches, which seem to attract adult "leaders" who lack maturity and want to be around young people for the wrong reasons.  I am wary of church communities who want children to attend services separately from their parents.  If my kids can't sit in the sanctuary with me for worship, I have no interest.  My babies aren't going to go trotting off every week with some stranger to be AT BEST indoctrinated into something or given information I haven't approved.  NOPE.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! I love this! Since I was raised in the church I will say, if I would have ever had kids (that ship has sailed) I would have been the exact same way. I saw way too much in the church growing up. No way in hell would I subject my babies to that. 

[Carm_88]

Honestly, the Sacrament of Reconciliation or Penance bothers me more than infant baptism. When I was 7 or 8 I didn't commit any sins. So I went up and said something stupid about disagreeing with my brother and lying. I lied about the disagreement because I didn't have anything else to say. 

Funny story about confirmation classes! There were 6 of us doing confirmation classes in our small church, more doing it in the parish. So our confirmation teacher was running late and we were all sitting around in the church. I forget what we were supposed to be doing, what we did do was get a guy dressed up in the priest's robes. The rest of us wore alter servers clothing and were standing on the alter when our teacher came in. All she could do was laugh. 

[pandora]

8 hours ago, nausicaa said:

It's an odd combination of the sacred and the profane. I was looking to make new friends and started going to some liberal Episcopalian churches. I thought of the services as more of a reflection and meditation time and enjoyed learning a lot of the church history and have always really liked the structure and tradition of a Catholic mass. Then I stumbled upon an Episcopal church not far from me with an active 20s and 30s group with pretty cool, not crazy people in it and before I knew it I was a member of the group. 

My church is really liberal (most of the priests are politically to the left of me), and also seems to attract some conservative, non-religious people who feel they need a church affiliation for their political career. In the 20s and 30s group alone, one member married an atheist and another is borderline agnostic. I've haven't yet come out and told anyone that I'm agnostic, but from some comments I've heard from other parishioners, there seems to be an unspoken understanding that there a good number of parishioners who struggle to believe in the resurrection and Biblical literalism, but think there are merits to the messages in the New Testament and enjoy the community and charity aspects of the church. 

Thank you for sharing, that's a wonderful story! I definitely connect with what you said about liking the structure of Catholic mass. I'm agnostic as well, I lived in DC for a semester during college and I walked to the National Cathedral for a service just about every Sunday morning to sit in a beautiful place and just be (and having grown up Catholic, seeing women ministers always makes me happy). 

[Illmarryyoujana]

4 hours ago, Starrynight said:

This was a few pages back but I wanted to say that I'm sorry your ex behaved this way. How hurtful 

Thank you! That’s so kind of you. We just weren’t a good pair. My current partner is much better in matching my love language. 

[neurogirl]

Have we seen this already? I think it's a cute/small way of doing an announcement for a 3rd kid. Though the talking head "I was a few days late so I thought I should take a test...but I really thought it wouldn't be positive." 

http://uptv.com/bringing-up-bates/bringing-up-bates-chad-youre-gonna-be-a-dad-again

[Carm_88]

Noooo having unprotected sex never leads to pregnancy! How could a pregnancy test be positive? Madness!

[BernRul]

On 5/9/2018 at 9:53 AM, FundieCentral said:

For this reason, I think I want to baptize my children. Has nothing to do with their future faith, and everything to do with me & everyone else who will be involved in raising my children committing to do our utmost best for this child, and asking for God's help (assuming he's alive and well) because that can be nothing but a benefit in this difficult task, from my perspective

Same here. I view infant baptism as a tradition that connects me to my family, and since my ethnicity (Irish) is so entwined with Catholicsm it's more of a cultural thing for me. I want to pass on that culture/tradition to my children, but I'm also going to teach them to be opened minded about other beliefs so they can chose for themsleves when they're old enough. My husband and I are different races, but were both raised Catholic, so it's one of the few "common ground" we have culturally that we can share with our children. Also, my mother and mother-in-law would kill me if I didn't baptise their grandchildren lol. 

On 5/10/2018 at 9:17 PM, Carm_88 said:

Honestly, the Sacrament of Reconciliation or Penance bothers me more than infant baptism. When I was 7 or 8 I didn't commit any sins. So I went up and said something stupid about disagreeing with my brother and lying. I lied about the disagreement because I didn't have anything else to say. 

That was me lol. I should have confessed that I lied in confession. And I went to Catholic school, so they made us go randomly and you couldn't get out of it. 

[Carm_88]

12 minutes ago, BernRul said:

That was me lol. I should have confessed that I lied in confession. And I went to Catholic school, so they made us go randomly and you couldn't get out of it. 

Haha Catholic school here too and no there was no way out of it! 

[FundieCentral]

@Carm_88 and @BernRul: Me too  I said something about teasing my sister. Then the priest said that that wasn’t a sin. Then I said I wanted to be nicer anyway. He said that’s not a sin either. Then he gave up and gave me the blessing anyway.  

[kmachete14]

In regards to confession . . . I was a very active, ahem, self-pleasur-ure as a child. I knew it was wrong because it was something secretive and "sexy." So, I was always TERRIFIED of confession. I imagined everyone else saying something like "I hit my brother" and then there was me the deviant. Even in high school, since I went to a Catholic school, I had only ever heard of boys doing it (look up Jason and Crystalina Evert -- the run a disturbing business that targets Catholic high schools, which in its 2008ish days did not recognize masturbation/porn as anything other than a boy's problem). I could never bring myself to tell the priest because I thought he would think I was a freak. I would say something lame about acting "unchaste." It wasn't until I was an upperclassman and had some really good, non-sheltered best friends that I ever told anyone. I no longer believe in god and to this day I think that early traumatization of having so much guilt and thinking I was a freak/had an addiction/was from age 8-16 just constantly sinning really started me on the path to leaving religion!