Carlin and Evan 2: Growing (a Little Bit) Older Together

[Hisey]

On 6/14/2018 at 7:07 PM, VelociRapture said:

So yeah. Alyssa wearing pants indicates exactly nothing other than the fact that she, her husband, and her in-law’s view the skirts only thing as a recommendation and not a rule.

Why are you so insistent that it "means exactly nothing?"

I mean, it's not 100% conclusive of anything. However, ONE possible conclusion is that Alyssa and John have the courage to make their own decisions, do not follow their parents blindly, AND that they could therefore make their own decisions in the future.

Maybe they based their pants decision on their own convictions. Maybe it has nothing to do with IBLP. Maybe Alyssa said, "John, I love my parents, but the skirts thing is crazy. Now that we're married, I want to wear pants and I want the girls to wear them. I don't need to obey my parents anymore and I want us to make our own decisions." And maybe John agreed.

To say that "it means exactly nothing" just says you have an agenda to keep viewing Alyssa and John as "bad." Face it, it's possible they are making "good" decisions.

So yes, it means something. It means there's a possibility, a hope, that Allie and her sisters will be able to attend school, hold a job, etc. There's a possibility. It's way better than if their mom was putting them in skirts. Then, there'd be no sign of hope.

[singsingsing]

The issue is that people get really hung up on the skirts vs. pants thing, I think because it's such an obvious visual, but it's not necessarily as indicative of anything as people tend to think. Many fundies aren't skirts-only. And they all have slightly different 'convictions', interpretations and priorities. Some adhere to the skirts-only rule for a variety of reasons but are actually more liberal in their parenting style/choices than other people who are a bit more liberal when it comes to fashion choices.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that fundies moving away from the skirts-only rule is completely meaningless. It means that, for whatever reason, they felt comfortable in changing that particular aspect of their family's outward appearance. But once you get beyond that and start speculating about why, and what it means, it gets a lot murkier.

There's always hope for all of these people, whether they're wearing frumpers or bikinis. Moving away from skirts-only is nice, but ultimately doesn't mean much without other factors at play. Look at Zach and Whitney, for example: not only have they moved away from skirts-only, Zach has a real job. Whitney has a real job! Whitney's had a lengthy gap between babies and shows no sign of being pregnant again, and on top of that they've been cagey about family planning. None of those things are proof that they're leaving fundamentalism, but they're more telling than the move away from skirts-only on its own.

[just_ordinary]

It is also important to note that we all have very different ideas about what „Fundie light“ means. 

So, what I have seen (only snippets) from some of the younger Bates (especially Zachney and Alyssa and John and Jessa and Ben) in regards to parenting, gives me hope that over the time those horrible Pearl and Enzo methods will be banned. They are still Fundie as it gets but I see positive development in comparison to others (which is why I don’t get all the love for Cherin and Michaela).

Obviously I am highly biased and my opinion is clouded by what I see and how I process it. As is anyone’s for that matter. So I would call them Fundie light even though their mindset might have not changed one bit about LGBT or contraception or abortion. But because for me, the fundamentalist lifestyle entails horrible parenting methods and therefore physical abuse. This definition is based on the very few fundamentalist sects we have here and what combines them and is therefore different then what people from other countries would say.

The most basic definition of taking the Bible literally falls short in my eyes as most of them indeed do interpret the texts so there goes all this out of the window.

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, Hisey said:

Why are you so insistent that it "means exactly nothing?"

I mean, it's not 100% conclusive of anything. However, ONE possible conclusion is that Alyssa and John have the courage to make their own decisions, do not follow their parents blindly, AND that they could therefore make their own decisions in the future.

Maybe they based their pants decision on their own convictions. Maybe it has nothing to do with IBLP. Maybe Alyssa said, "John, I love my parents, but the skirts thing is crazy. Now that we're married, I want to wear pants and I want the girls to wear them. I don't need to obey my parents anymore and I want us to make our own decisions." And maybe John agreed.

To say that "it means exactly nothing" just says you have an agenda to keep viewing Alyssa and John as "bad." Face it, it's possible they are making "good" decisions.

So yes, it means something. It means there's a possibility, a hope, that Allie and her sisters will be able to attend school, hold a job, etc. There's a possibility. It's way better than if their mom was putting them in skirts. Then, there'd be no sign of hope.

Because it honestly doesn’t indicate anything regarding their involvement in IBLP specifically. IBLP isn’t nearly as strict about skirts only as people here seem to think. The everyday wearing of skirts and dresses is something that is left for each family to decide and is only required attire at official events. That’s why you see families like the Salyers who are simultaneously ok with their daughters wearing pants and who are still involved with IBLP. The only thing we can say with 100% certainty about the pants is that it indicates Alyssa and John don’t agree with her parents’ personal conviction to have females in pants all the time and that Alyssa looks great wearing them. 

[nausicaa]

I actually don't mind the "baby steps" argument in regards to pants (though I don't necessarily agree with it). However, the rejoicing over pants can bother me for a different reason. Because it comes off as if some people only have an issue with Fundies for superficial reasons. 

Honestly, if a woman chooses to wear a full Amish get up complete with a bonnet everyday, I don't give a crap. I mean, yeah, I'll probably comment on it here cause I'm a snarky bitch, but I have zero ethical issue with that. 

My essential issues with IBLP/ATI/Vision Forum isn't that they wear conservative clothing or don't watch TV. It's that they teach women must be submissive to men, they brush sexual assault under the rug, they want to wipe away the separation of church and state and undermine our education system, as well as deny rights to anyone who doesn't fall within their white, hetero, cisgender, Protestant purview.

So as long as Alyssa is still pumping up Trump and her creepy FIL, I'm not going to think highly of her just because her pencil skirts are perfectly fitted. 

Erin has actually done a lot more to push at the boundaries of her upbringing: she and her husband seem to have a more equal relationship, she lets her son carry a purse, and encourages him to be nurturing. And yet people just make fun of her because she has Elly Mae hair and wears a lot of vests. Priorities really seem to be out of whack when it comes to the Bateses.

[candygirl200413]

So slightly unrelated but during the eye love you day episode I heard John speak for the first time ever and I was actually shocked cause I never heard his voice. That is all!

[VBOY9977]

So there’s a new video on BUB’s Facebook page. I tried to copy the link but I couldn’t for some reason.

the video shows Carlin homeschooling the kids. She says she’s now taking online classes at Crown because she’ll be able to graduate faster and get married, and also to help her mom tutor the kids. 

I also have the feeling that’s Carlin is over college, but she has already taken too much semesters for her to drop out now like Alyssa did. 

[HermioneSparrow]

1 hour ago, VBOY9977 said:

So there’s a new video on BUB’s Facebook page. I tried to copy the link but I couldn’t for some reason.

the video shows Carlin homeschooling the kids. She says she’s now taking online classes at Crown because she’ll be able to graduate faster and get married, and also to help her mom tutor the kids. 

I also have the feeling that’s Carlin is over college, but she has already taken too much semesters for her to drop out now like Alyssa did. 

I saw on tumblr... Homegirl is desperate to get married. Also, Kelly you awful lazy ass so called mother of 19, educate your damn kids... 

[Daisy0322]

48 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Homegirl is desperate to get married

Of course she is, it's the only way in her culture she can be considered an adult and it's the most "freedom" she will ever have unless she leaves the cult.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

So there’s a new video on BUB’s Facebook page. I tried to copy the link but I couldn’t for some reason.

the video shows Carlin homeschooling the kids. She says she’s now taking online classes at Crown because she’ll be able to graduate faster and get married, and also to help her mom shirk her parental responsibilities more than she already has, which I honestly didn’t think was possible.

I also have the feeling that’s Carlin is over college, but she has already taken too much semesters for her to drop out now like Alyssa did. 

Fixed that for you! 

[TeaELSee]

12 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Erin has actually done a lot more to push at the boundaries of her upbringing: she and her husband seem to have a more equal relationship, she lets her son carry a purse, and encourages him to be nurturing. And yet people just make fun of her because she has Elly Mae hair and wears a lot of vests. Priorities really seem to be out of whack when it comes to the Bateses.

I have personally called Erin “Ellie Mae” but that was in reference to an old picture, which is now my avatar.  My reference has ZERO to do with how fundie/fundie light or whatever she is.  I think Erin is a decent mom, and I have called out her favoritism toward Carson. (Just an observation, I don’t know her). I have little opinion of Alyssa, her father in law is awful.

Alyssa dresses better than Erin, it does not effect my opinion of either of them. Erin and Michaela are simply not as stylish as the rest of their sisters. I’m sure they are more comfortable the way they dress which is great.

i don’t think it is a contest between the two? 

Edited to add: Why is this under the Carlin thread?

[Kelsey]

Imo, the only ones that are fundie-lite are Zach and Whitney. I think so because Zach got a job (and training) that requires him to answer to someone else, Whitney got education and works at least part-time, and they seem to allow their children to grow up more normally. Whit and Zach seem to have a more egalitarian marriage where she appears to often make the final decision (the home flooring, her job) and he goes along with it. She has also made comments that makes it sound like she won't be having a shit-ton of kiddos.

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, TeaELSee said:

I have personally called Erin “Ellie Mae” but that was in reference to an old picture, which is now my avatar.  My reference has ZERO to do with how fundie/fundie light or whatever she is.  I think Erin is a decent mom, and I have called out her favoritism toward Carson. (Just an observation, I don’t know her). I have little opinion of Alyssa, her father in law is awful.

Alyssa dresses better than Erin, it does not effect my opinion of either of them. Erin and Michaela are simply not as stylish as the rest of their sisters. I’m sure they are more comfortable the way they dress which is great.

i don’t think it is a contest between the two? 

Edited to add: Why is this under the Carlin thread?

It's under the Carlin thread cause, well, we tend to get off topic around here!

I actually didn't have anyone in particular in mind with my rant. I don't even mind when people want to make fun of Erin's old hairstyles or critique her clothing. God knows you could go through my posts and make a pretty damning compilation of my being a right snarky bitch about people's styling choices.

It's just odd to me that Alyssa seems to have this general support group who assumes she's rebelling and becoming so progressive, similar to Jinger Duggar, when really, the two have only just become more fashionable. Contrasted with how the general board tone is harder on Erin, it's even more noticeable and the only difference I can find is that Jinger and Alyssa happen to wear skinny jeans now. If you aren't one of the ones who seems to think Alyssa is suddenly some Bill of Rights respecting, pro-LGBT feminist now just because of her cute clothes, please feel free to continue your Ellie Mae snark!

[ophelia]

14 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

I also have the feeling that’s Carlin is over college, but she has already taken too much semesters for her to drop out now like Alyssa did. 

Did Alyssa ever attend Crown? I thought she didn't even start, because she stated she'd never need a degree.

12 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

Of course she is, it's the only way in her culture she can be considered an adult and it's the most "freedom" she will ever have unless she leaves the cult.

And until she has a brood of her own and a new baby every year. It's gonna be a short period of freedom.

[VelociRapture]

9 hours ago, nausicaa said:

It's under the Carlin thread cause, well, we tend to get off topic around here!

I actually didn't have anyone in particular in mind with my rant. I don't even mind when people want to make fun of Erin's old hairstyles or critique her clothing. God knows you could go through my posts and make a pretty damning compilation of my being a right snarky bitch about people's styling choices.

It's just odd to me that Alyssa seems to have this general support group who assumes she's rebelling and becoming so progressive, similar to Jinger Duggar, when really, the two have only just become more fashionable. Contrasted with how the general board tone is harder on Erin, it's even more noticeable and the only difference I can find is that Jinger and Alyssa happen to wear skinny jeans now. If you aren't one of the ones who seems to think Alyssa is suddenly some Bill of Rights respecting, pro-LGBT feminist now just because of her cute clothes, please feel free to continue your Ellie Mae snark!

You can see the same thing with Jill Dillard too. Granted Jill rightfully deserves a lot of criticism for her shitty life choices, but she’s definitely taken steps that many people here would normally consider baby steps towards Fundie-lite - wearing pants, piercing her nose, possibly purposely spacing her pregnancies - yet no one has ever really suggested that Jill is going Fundie-lite. 

I think a lot of it really boils down to how each of them presents their lives on social media and on the respective shows. Alyssa and Jinger are relatively good at showing only the positives of their lives*, while Jill has no idea about what is or isn’t appropriate to share. I think it’s really important to remember that what we do know about each of them usually comes from a filtered source (social media or the shows) and shouldn’t be viewed as absolute reality. It’s easy to come across as likeable and normal when you aren’t constantly posting about your extreme religious or political views.**

*Erin is normally good at this too, but I think the few missteps she’s had lately regarding possible favoritism may be working against her. That, plus the visual juxtaposition between Erin and her more fashionable sisters and sister-in-law.  

**Alyssa did at some point tag the Church she normally attends on an Instagram post. Someone here looked through their website and, if I remember right, it was a very conservative Church. Most people don’t agree completely with their Churches on everything, but I’d argue it’s a more accurate way to gauge where each individual or couple may stand.

ETA: I swear this is my last edit. But we also have an idea of where Jinger might stand on issues because her husband is a Pastor and his sermons pop up online. Again, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some differences of opinion, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find out that Jinger has very similar views and beliefs as Jeremy.

3 hours ago, ophelia said:

Did Alyssa ever attend Crown? I thought she didn't even start, because she stated she'd never need a degree.

And until she has a brood of her own and a new baby every year. It's gonna be a short period of freedom.

I believe Alyssa spent a semester or two at Crown. It appeared more as a way for her to stay busy while waiting to court and marry John than because she was actually interested in the programs. 

[Daisy0322]

36 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

You can see the same thing with Jill Dillard too. Granted Jill rightfully deserves a lot of criticism for her shitty life choices, but she’s definitely taken steps that many people here would normally consider baby steps towards Fundie-lite - wearing pants, piercing her nose, possibly purposely spacing her pregnancies - yet no one has ever really suggested that Jill is going Fundie-lite. 

I think a lot of it really boils down to how each of them presents their lives on social media and on the respective shows. Alyssa and Jinger are relatively good at showing only the positives of their lives*, while Jill has no idea about what is or isn’t appropriate to share.....

*Erin is normally good at this too, but I think the few missteps she’s had lately regarding possible favoritism may be working against her. 

I sniped here and there to save space.

I think the fundie to fundie light argument is just so subjective because we have no definition. Fir example I don't count pants or Jill's nose ring st all because to nevthry are outside things. Also the space after a c-section is boarder line for me because many women don't start ovulating until around then anyway.  I think they can better be judged based off their husband (sadly). Because they are suppose to be following their husbands lead and I do think they are mostly savy enough to pick "head of households" that seem like they'll have the changes or lack there of that they want. Therefore, Michaels husband works for The cult so no matter how she appears they are probably super fundie still.  Where as on the other hand jinjer for exsample has Jeremy. (For the record i think he is a tool and very controlling) Yes he has hateful beliefs BUT he has nothing to do with the cult and seems to be living his own life and not caring about what the duggars are doing.

[VelociRapture]

48 minutes ago, Daisy0322 said:

I sniped here and there to save space.

I think the fundie to fundie light argument is just so subjective because we have no definition. Fir example I don't count pants or Jill's nose ring st all because to nevthry are outside things. Also the space after a c-section is boarder line for me because many women don't start ovulating until around then anyway.  I think they can better be judged based off their husband (sadly). Because they are suppose to be following their husbands lead and I do think they are mostly savy enough to pick "head of households" that seem like they'll have the changes or lack there of that they want. Therefore, Michaels husband works for The cult so no matter how she appears they are probably super fundie still.  Where as on the other hand jinjer for exsample has Jeremy. (For the record i think he is a tool and very controlling) Yes he has hateful beliefs BUT he has nothing to do with the cult and seems to be living his own life and not caring about what the duggars are doing.

I personally don’t really count most of that as a sign either, but a lot of people here do.

I do agree with you about spouse choice being a decent indicator in addition to Church choice. I think there are three groups of spouses thus far (though others are welcome to disagree or offer changes):

1. I believe that Josh, Michael, Erin, Alyssa, Joseph, and Joy have all married a fellow IBLPer. Of these couples, Michael married a man who makes a living from IBLP and Erin married someone whose father is a Member of the Board (as her own father is.) Anna Duggar appears to be a firm believer in their lifestyle. We know less about Kendra and Austin, but they both appear relatively happy with the lifestyle as well. John we see and hear very little from, so it's tough to know what he may actually think or feel - I think that’s partly why so many pin their hopes on Alyssa. John’s father is one of the most Conservative and radically Christian members of Congress though and we know both Alyssa and John have supported him in the past. Views can change, but I think (note: speculation) it could be safe to assume they may agree with a lot of what Taliban Dan believes. If they don’t and they continue supporting him then I don’t think that says much positive about them either. 

2. Jessa married someone whose family was formerly involved with Vision Forum, a different form of Fundamentalism. Ben appears capable of at least some critical thinking and has at least tried to speak out against racial injustices - but he’s still a Catholic basher and it wouldn’t be surprising if he held equally questionable views on other topics as well. 

3. Zach, Jill, and Jinger all married people from more secular backgrounds and none of them come from a Quiverful family. That said, both Derick and Jeremy have pursued religious careers and hold some questionable (at best) beliefs. Whitney holds some form of employment outside the house, appears to be purposely avoiding pregnancy at this point (for now at least), and appears to have a more equal marriage than the others. She still holds some questionable (again, at best) political and (likely) religious views, but of all the couples they seem most likely to ditch Fundamentalism (though whether they will or not remains to be seen.)  

I’m not sure about Bobby’s specific background, but I don’t believe he is from an IBLP or Quiverful family. I’m also not counting the courting/engaged couples of CarVan, JoLton, or SiRen just yet. 

All that said, each person mentioned above is an individual and not everyone will grow or change in the same ways. It’s entirely possible that some of these couples will continue to be deeply entrenched in Fundiedom, but others may not. It’s also possible some couples may grow in different directions as well. To use an example, I personally think Michael and Brandon Keilen could go either way in the future. Brandon works for IBLP and Michael appears to be a genuine believer, but they're struggling with infertility and Michael has admitted that she suffered some form of a crisis of faith as a result. Brandon helped her find her way back (and I do believe he helped her rather than forced or tricked her), but there was still some crisis for her which I think is important to note. I don’t think they’ll actually leave and I don’t think they’ll grow in opposite directions, but I do think both are still possibilities. 

[just_ordinary]

For me the line is more about how they speak about their children and family/husband. 

Erin is constantly gushing over Chad and what a great Dad he is, that it reached the point where I just don’t believe it anymore. Because I have never actually seen any indication of it. She doesn’t seem to work anymore. So the fact that Carson carried a clutch doesn’t have much weight in my interpretation. She seems to favour him right now and he is a spoiled first born son. Let’s see what happens when he gets 8.

Michaela and Brandon seem 100% Fudie to me and I fear for every child born or adopted in their family. It will be the miracle blessing which might bring lots of pressure to be perfect.

Zach and Whitney have obviously changed some things even though I believe they will never speak against female submission. Hopefully they send their children to a real (probably private Christian) school or at least a home education group. But I believe that is most change we would ever see from any Bates couple. I can see more couples going in that direction but not further.

John and Alyssa post sickly sweet pictures but both seem to work and care for the children together. She also talked about how Allie had a hard time sleeping and that they will just live with it till it gets better. There also wasn’t a grid(?) at her door so she could walk to her parents instead of being trapped. They also showed how John and Alyssa alternated going to jobs and child caring. It will be interesting to see what opportunities the girls will get offered.

Did I miss a married Bates  couple with more than one child? So hard to keep up sometimes.

So while all of them definitely believe in the same mindset and values, Zach and Whitney and Alyssa and John seem to treat their children and each other in a way that shows me that they see each other more as equals or at least treat each other more as equals and realise that children have different personalities and needs that need to be seen and respected. They seem to compromise those individual needs and make them work rather than pressing everything into the „perfect Fundie“ pattern.

This is all highly subjective and I will wait to see how the oldest three in every family get treated when they are teens to have a better idea what was just me wishing and what might have been real.

[Ivycoveredtower]

here is the Carlin clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCt3DZy1ggc

[Illmarryyoujana]

On 6/18/2018 at 12:12 AM, Hisey said:

Why are you so insistent that it "means exactly nothing?"

I mean, it's not 100% conclusive of anything. However, ONE possible conclusion is that Alyssa and John have the courage to make their own decisions, do not follow their parents blindly, AND that they could therefore make their own decisions in the future.

Maybe they based their pants decision on their own convictions. Maybe it has nothing to do with IBLP. Maybe Alyssa said, "John, I love my parents, but the skirts thing is crazy. Now that we're married, I want to wear pants and I want the girls to wear them. I don't need to obey my parents anymore and I want us to make our own decisions." And maybe John agreed.

To say that "it means exactly nothing" just says you have an agenda to keep viewing Alyssa and John as "bad." Face it, it's possible they are making "good" decisions.

So yes, it means something. It means there's a possibility, a hope, that Allie and her sisters will be able to attend school, hold a job, etc. There's a possibility. It's way better than if their mom was putting them in skirts. Then, there'd be no sign of hope.

The problem with this theory is that you keep including John in it. If she were truly making a real change, she’d simply wear pant and her husband wouldn’t have been part of the decision. Her wearing pants doesn’t mean the girls have a higher possibility of attending public, or even private,  school. I am one to argue that some of these women are no longer quiverful, but you’ve put way too much on her wearing pants. 

I also really hate the term fundie lite. There’s no such thing. You’re either a fundamentalist or not.  Sure, you can be a more extreme one, so if we’re going on a spectrum, let’s use that. 

[candygirl200413]

How would she finish faster though? At least at my undergrad and now grad school you're capped at 5 for undergrad (15 credits) or 3 classes for grad school (9 credits) max.

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 hour ago, candygirl200413 said:

How would she finish faster though? At least at my undergrad and now grad school you're capped at 5 for undergrad (15 credits) or 3 classes for grad school (9 credits) max.

She may have only been taking the min on campus credits and is taking the Max online courses. Some people just find it easier to do online work plus lets be honest it does work best with the Bates life style of always picking up and traveling. I couldn't have done it though I've a very classroom based learner. 

[Hisey]

That clip with Jed or Jud breaks my heart. "I don't like school," he says.

Of course you don't, honey. You are learning math from workbooks, and you have an indifferent, vacant, semi-educated kid teaching you.

You should be learning math with manipulatives, building animals from paper mache, participating in a class play about the Greek gods, listening to a story with your classmates, watching a baby chick hatch, running about with the other boys at recess, etc.

Instead, your idiot teacher is coaxing you to do three pages so that she can say you "really studied math today."

[Ivycoveredtower]

10 minutes ago, Hisey said:

That clip with Jed or Jud breaks my heart. "I don't like school," he says.

Of course you don't, honey. You are learning math from workbooks, and you have an indifferent, vacant, semi-educated kid teaching you.

You should be learning math with manipulatives, building animals from paper mache, participating in a class play about the Greek gods, listening to a story with your classmates, watching a baby chick hatch, running about with the other boys at recess, etc.

Instead, your idiot teacher is coaxing you to do three pages so that she can say you "really studied math today."

I think Carlin is just over it all. she wants out of that house and she'll use any means to do it . online school check. babysitting for Kelly so she looks like the good daughter check. because lets face it her teaching is more like babysitting. Kelly or Tori who actually studied Education okay maybe but Carlin no.  she wants permission to marry and that's all. in this family I can't really say I blame her. I bet she'll be another Erin who paints her room some crazy color because she was never allowed as a little girl. 

[KelseyAnn]

21 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

 There also wasn’t a grid(?) at her door so she could walk to her parents instead of being trapped. They also showed how John and Alyssa alternated going to jobs and child caring. It will be interesting to see what opportunities the girls will get offered.

 

1

What do you mean a grid? Did Kelly and Gil used to trap her in her room?