Dillards 35: Waiting on People Magazine

[Carm_88]

If all this social media silence is to drum up interest for the next season or the one after that, whenever Samuel will be born, then for fucks sake that's annoying! 

Likely, Jill is struggling. She feels that she has done absolutely right and likely feels like she is being punished. Which again, fucked up religion, it should never be that way. That's something that Jill has to come to realize, and I'm not sure she's to that point. Whatever happened has happened. Again, I will say that we won't ever know what did happen. They aren't sharing the story and Duggars don't tend to be truthful anyway. So, I think take it at face value. Samuel is healthy and Jill seems to be ok, that's all there is. 

[jozina]

From a medical view any c-section that was not planned ahead of time is emergency. It's just the terminology, it doesn't necessarily mean that people were running someone to theatre because someone was minutes from death. C-section after 40 hours of labour because the mother's haemorrhaging or the baby's heart beat has plummeted? Emergency. C-section after an hour of labour because the mother's asking for one or after ten hours because the mother isn't dilating at all despite baby and mum being perfectly healthy? Still emergency. We categorise them into different categories based on how urgent the c-section is and some people call a category 1 c-section a crash c-section.

Proven pelvis is just a medical term. It's proven you can get a baby out. It makes future births less risky because you know at least one party has the ability to get through it, plus things tend to go a little faster and smoother. There's nothing to do with proving your womanhood.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, bal maiden said:

"Proven birth canal" is not just a FJ term: I have heard it used by both my midwife (fear not, FJers, my midwives were medically qualified, I'm in the U.K. these days!) and obstetricians. I'm the last person to argue that by virtue of being a medical term it is free from any value judgements, but I don't think that those people using it on here were using it as a stick with which to beat Jill for being a lesser woman. "Spontaneous abortion" (aka miscarriage) is another such medical term that can make people wince, but similarly is standard terminology in medical parlance. 

I feel like I'm weird. I almost prefer spontaneous abortion to miscarriage. To me, the word "miscarriage" implies I did something to cause the loss - whereas "spontaneous abortion" doesn't. That's just me personally though. I know a lot of people feel differently.

[Henk12]

Proven birth canal/pelvis is definitely a medical term. My midwife used it all the time and explained that it just means I have had successful vaginal births.

Definitely has nothing to do with being a "real woman" or whatever. Honestly, I think women who have csections are bad ass because I would freak out if I had to have major surgery while I was awake.

[Fluffy14]

24 minutes ago, jozina said:

There's nothing to do with proving your womanhood.

We know that. But in their culture it has everything to do with proving your womanhood. Can you imagine after your own mother pushed out 15- 17 kids? (correct me if I am wrong)? And you can't even get one out? I think it would be very easy to go to "what is wrong with me?" It would easily be the assumption that if your mother did it then genetically speaking she would have been able to do it. (In a daughter's eyes) I can't imagine the disappointment . All her life she probably thought she would be able to do like her mother did. And the Bates mama. And Anna. 

Besides, that is what Godly women do. That is their only calling. This must be mind crushing for her.

 

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

I'm really confused about this term "proving" you can deliver vaginally, as if it's a test you pass or fail. Where does it come from? To my ears it sounds like a sexist determination of 'true' womanhood (all that matters is successful reproduction and mothering). 

Just to be clear I'm totally understanding of the fact that someone would be disappointed if their birth plan doesn't go according to their hopes. It just seems much better to say that a vaginal delivery wasn't possible because of X reason rather than that they couldn't 'prove their ability to deliver vaginally'.

Or am I just being Captain Obvious and missing the point of the entire discussion?

I was a NICU nurse for 35 years, after a short stint (2 years) in ObGyn. It is a term used in medicine. Yes, it means proving that you can deliver from below and that the tract, so to speak, has been previously navigated. 

I think this is another incident of not being able to say anything, without someone being offended.

I had 2 c-sections, so I still have an unproven birth canal. I am not offended by that term.

:shrugs:

[cascarones]

I don't know what, if anything, happened clearly, but I'm glad they seem to be putting the family health priorities above publicity. I also hope that if Jill or anyone (Derick to all the Duggars) are struggling emotionally someone is helping meter the media scrutiny to where she sees it as everyone being concerned and caring for their physical, emotional and spiritual well being and it's therapeutic. Instead of anxiety inducing or like they're getting smacked with speculation and judgement sticks, nobody should be kicked while down. I've seen some stuff other places in the maelstrom and some of the comments I've read are unflinchingly heartless, why I like it here. People may not agree on their views, or each others, but I haven't read anything wishing ill or harm on Jill or the baby, mainly lots of compassion. 

Outside of their nuclear family I can see this providing anxiety for some of Duggars who haven't had babies yet, or those that remember Josie being hospitalized and the little ones needing reassurance.

@VelociRapture - I too prefer the proper medical terms for almost everything. 

[jozina]

I know all of that Fluffy. I was more responding to what PainfullyAware said. I never said there was no reason Jill would be upset.

Take away the religious and quiverfull nonsense and there's a lot of baggage in society anyway about womanhood and vaginal delivery. I've sat with women sobbing their hearts out after a c-section because they think it makes them less of a woman or who are so upset by a c-section that they can barely look at their babies or who become hysterical at the word birth because they feel they didn't give birth or who've begged their partner to not tell their family waiting outside that they're going for a c-section because their mother/sister had three/five/twelve kids vagibally and the shame is too much. And I've seen husbands turn nasty at their wife having multiple c-sections because it may limit their family, especially if they only have girls, usually from a different religion altogether to them Duggars. I've had far too close a seat to that kind of thing too often.

[Stormy]

This reminds me of when I got upset as a kid when I found out my apgar score was a 5 out of 10, because 50% is an F in school. (I was an emergency c-section, was full of mucus, and wouldn't cry for a good few minutes after birth until they stuck a pin in my foot.)

Seriously, I don't know why the proven birth canal thing has turned into a pages-long debate. Whether or not a birth canal is "proven", refers to whether or not a baby has managed to squeeze through it in one piece. If a baby hasn't passed through, there's no way to determine if it's possible, and, if perinatal mortality rates of times passed are anything to go by, safe. C-section? Unproven. Virgin? Unproven. Childless by choice? Unproven. Built your family with adoption? Unproven.

I find it's pretty necessary to have that terminology when embarking on a pregnancy, particularly if you plan on doing something like a homebirth. If a pregnant lady with an unproven birth canal got stranded on a deserted island with no medical care (or, alternatively, was fundie), it'd be extra precarious. In pop culture, The Walking Dead's Lori Grimes was scared to give birth during the zombie apocalypse since her eldest child had been a c-section (and, thus, an unproven birth canal) and they had to plan accordingly. (Spoiler: she died in childbirth and her preteen son was forced to shoot his zombie-mom)

My point is that I think it's a necessary linguistic choice regarding the birth canal's ability so that healthcare providers and prospective mothers can make informed choices. Since my own mother wanted to have a VBAC, she elected to have my younger brother induced so that he wouldnt be as toddler-sized (on schedule!) as I was (he was around 8 lbs at 37 weeks). It's why so many FJers have been worried for Jill's (presumed) choice of another homebirth, since the only thing that's been "proven" is that her one and only attempt ended in an unwanted c-section. I know the motherhood = womanhood association has been a problem made worse by linguistic choices before, but geez.

/bad mood

[luxfilia]

I'm still over here thinking that nothing is out of the ordinary. Sure, she had a birth that wasn't ideal and that may be causing some negativity. But they didn't change their frequency of posting after the baby came; the DIllards had been slacking off on the social media (especially Instagram) posts for really the past year or so.

@Stormy I feel ya. But no one was actually debating the term. I think some people had never heard the term and didn't understand that it was medically used; some seemed to think it was a term invented here on FJ. Once explained, I think everyone can move on without continuing to debate. Words have power, so I think it's okay when others initially have a visceral reaction to a term. But it's also easier to move past with the details on why the term is used. I don't think anyone here is arguing against the term, just questioning it. It's good to know where our words originate.

[Voluminous Skirts]

Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I joined so I could share an idea I haven't seen here yet:

What if the silence is for legal reasons?

If it were just for medical or mental health reasons, you'd think they could still pull off a 10-second video with a smiling announcement. We've seen Michelle suited up for surgery, we've seen Jessa writhing in labor, we've seen Jill puffy after her first C-section, and we've seen Derick gagging and talking about it with a doctor. They're not shy about medical issues.

And even with psychological issues, we've seen the family crying over Jubilee, as well as talking about Josh. They have a remarkable ability, for better or worse, to smile and talk about their blessings despite being troubled.

I think the most likely scenario is they're considering a lawsuit for medical malpractice. I think something happened to Jill during the C-section that injured her or violated her consent. Maybe an infection?

I don't think they'd be suing the home birth crew, firstly because the family had more decisionmaking power there, secondly because they're probably family friends, and thirdly because VBAC trials are not as risky as repeat C-sections IIRC, so just statistically the injury probably happened as a result of the C-section.

It makes sense that if they're suing the hospital or OB for injuries that included causing mental suffering, their lawyer would advise them not to release anything about Jill's condition that makes her look physically or even mentally okay. Hence no smiling 10-second video.

[foreign fundie]

1 hour ago, jozina said:

family waiting outside that they're going for a c-section because their mother/sister had three/five/twelve kids vagibally and the shame is too much.

Can I Just say I love the word 'vagibally'?

[JillyO]

4 hours ago, MadeItOut said:

Just occurred to me, I should probably just add in the unlikely event some lurking nutter reads and runs with - by "send(ing) our love/prayers/good thoughts/light a candle" I did mean quietly from ourselves into the ether or wherever according to our own traditions, not, for example, sending a card/teddy/flowers or something seriously weird. That's called stalking and it's a crime. I'm most positively not advocating anyone take up any form of criminal activity.

I certainly do not want to encourage anyone to send any Duggars any stuff whatsoever. But I do feel that it's neessary to point out that sending a card or a stuffed animal to a celebrity (or "celebrity," as the case may be) is not stalking. It happens all the damn time and is most definitely not a crime. Stalking is very serious and I really dislike it when perfectly harmless things are labelled stalking.

[viii]

I don't know how to post it here, but Jill finally posted a picture of Samuel on her instagram. 

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

C-sections have saved lives; as has formula milk.  Availing yourself of either, whether by choice or circumstance, does not make you an inferior mother.  I find it so upsetting when women judge themselves negatively for having a c-section.  I find it even more upsetting that Jill is likely to be in a situation where others judge her negatively too.      

 

[luxfilia]

6 minutes ago, JillyO said:

I certainly do not want to encourage anyone to send any Duggars any stuff whatsoever. But I do feel that it's neessary to point out that sending a card or a stuffed animal to a celebrity (or "celebrity," as the case may be) is not stalking. It happens all the damn time and is most definitely not a crime. Stalking is very serious and I really dislike it when perfectly harmless things are labelled stalking.

Agreed! But I do wish there were a term for this, as well. It's still kind of creepy, weird, and overstepping boundaries. I guess it's just "fangirling" or "fanboying."

[JenniferJuniper]

15 minutes ago, Voluminous Skirts said:

I think the most likely scenario is they're considering a lawsuit for medical malpractice. I think something happened to Jill during the C-section that injured her or violated her consent. Maybe an infection?
 

I'm with you here.  We know how litigious they are and Jill already has an attorney representing her in a lawsuit.  Keep quiet, is exactly what he'd tell her to do.  Hard as that may be for them.

If this is the case, it will be interesting to see how TLC deals with the situation.... I should think cancellation would be the best route, but they've written out other Duggar characters before. 

[luxfilia]

3 minutes ago, viii said:

I don't know how to post it here, but Jill finally posted a picture of Samuel on her instagram. 

MiddleAgedLady already posted it on page 16 of this thread.

[viii]

4 minutes ago, luxfilia said:

MiddleAgedLady already posted it on page 16 of this thread.

Oh whoops! Shows what I get for skimming, haha. Thanks!

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, Snarkangel Gabriel said:

C-sections have saved lives; as has formula milk.  Availing yourself of either, whether by choice or circumstance, does not make you an inferior mother.  I find it so upsetting when women judge themselves negatively for having a c-section.  I find it even more upsetting that Jill is likely to be in a situation where others judge her negatively too.      

 

You know I try really hard to be open minded, but shouldn't the goal of pregnancy, labor and delivery be: healthy mom, healthy baby???? The rest of the details should best be viewed as maybes; nice if they happen...keep the focus more on the outcome and not the process. 

I did not have an ideal first delivery at all, but we were both 100% healthy at the end, so...I built that damn bridge and moved on. Second delivery was no better- again, bridge built. Many of my friends called it the "health care worker curse"- 

I know, different things push different people's passion buttons.

Eff anyone who finds method of delivery a reason to judge others. 

[shiverful]

From the Duggar family blog (Lily and Ellie): No further information has been made public about the details of the birth or Jill's recovery, but when any announcements are made, we will share it with you all. 

I hope I don't come off as conspiratorial, but wouldn't it be weird for them to mention Jill's recovery? I mean, these people are friends and defenders of the Duggars, why hint to a statement regarding Jill's recovery if they didn't know that something was coming? 

Any blog or page about the Duggars could have written this after all the rumors that have been floating around, but this blog always try to avoid talking about Duggan-Problems unless the family comments on it themselves. 

[Voluminous Skirts]

14 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 We know how litigious they are and Jill already has an attorney representing her in a lawsuit.  Keep quiet, is exactly what he'd tell her to do.

Oh wow, I had actually forgotten about their current lawsuit. Perhaps it was a gateway lawsuit. Like, gee, that wasn't so hard, we can do more of this. XD

[scoutsadie]

23 hours ago, Buzzard said:

But still no pic with Izzy and the baby.  I presume its because Jill is still recovering and cant handle Izzy and the baby right now.

I NEVER put my little guy in pants.  It was too much of a PITA with diaper changes so props for that!

 

Ha - I wonder if it rankled Jill for that commenter to note that he looks like Jessa...

 

[curlykate]

7 minutes ago, shiverful said:

 

I hope I don't come off as conspiratorial, but wouldn't it be weird for them to mention Jill's recovery? I mean, these people are friends and defenders of the Duggars, why hint to a statement regarding Jill's recovery if they didn't know that something was coming? 

 

I don't think it's weird at all. We all know she's recovering...she just had major surgery for the second time in just over two years.  Even if everything went smoothly and there were no complications, she would still be recovering. 

[SummerRocks]

I -obviously- don't know why there is semi social media silence. 

I strongly doubt anything extreme as a hysterectomy is going on. I think it's most likely that Jill is quiet cause a lot of things have changed in her life. She has a second son (while she -and some close to her- really wanted a girl - I do strongly believe that gender disappointment is a thing), she had a second C section (while she really wanted a natural birth) and her hormones are probably completely out of whack. 

Jill now will go back to scary Central America with two children under the age of 3. Bye bye support system, she can't even properly communicate with the locals there, the shower rack incident proved that Jill is not even slightly at ease in Central America. All while more and more of her siblings are married/getting married and seem to stay close to home, still seeing family - still experiencing the "safety" (I know: ironic) that JB and M created and that Jill thrived in.