Dillards 35: Waiting on People Magazine

[HarleyQuinn]

The irony of Jill Duggar suing a hospital for malpractice when she puts herself and her babies in danger with her poorly attempted home births. 

I do think they're strategizing about something. They're way too attention seeking to go this long without the need for it. 

Poor Sam, another Duggary looking baby. 

[flyonthewall]

On 2017-07-18 at 11:43 PM, kacarlton said:

I'd like to share my thoughts on when adult children who have left the duggar household should be held accountable for their views. I don't think there is a definitive answer and my guess is that it would be different from person to person.

 

I grew up in a strict, southern baptist household with lots of indoctrination, although I was certainly afforded educational opportunities and access to books of choice and other information as I grew up. Still, I would say it took a good 10 years of solid therapy and hard work to truly feel that I was no longer under my parents' control and that I could make my own life decisions.

 

I think we may be seeing pieces of breaking away with Jessa and jinger, at least I hope so. Jessa appears to be pretty tuned into her kids and it doesn't appear that they are doing blanket training. So I'm willing to give it a bit more time. It's very hard to disavow everything you've ever been told.

 

Exactly. I was raised in a different environment from the duggars but my upbringing was stricter and more abusive than their household. I'm still working on overcoming those limiting beliefs I was raised in. To look at people and put a blanket opinion on them is totally unfair. There are so many variables at play here. I'm sure most, if not all of them have questioned their parents beliefs at some point. Some surely will make peace with it, some may even be happy with it, and some will struggle with it. It takes a lot of courage to challenge these deep rooted belief systems. Once you start to wake up, there's no going back. And it's going to be an incredibly painful and difficult journey to remove the programming. I hope that those who don't want to live this way will have the courage to break free I can't imagine a life of just submitting to something I don't believe in. However some people genuinely are more comfortable in settling for a life they don't want to live. To each their own.

[VineHeart137]

Did Jill state that she really wanted a girl? Or is that just speculation? Just curious. There are entire forums dedicated to the subject of gender disappointment. I've always found it an interesting topic from a psychological standpoint.

[littlemommy]

Just now, VineHeart137 said:

Did Jill state that she really wanted a girl? Or is that just speculation? Just curious. There are entire forums dedicated to the subject of gender disappointment. I've always found it an interesting topic from a psychological standpoint.

At one of my ultrasounds the technician was telling me about people freaking out when they found out their baby wasn't the desired sex, even going as far as to tear up the pictures. I was a little disappointed that my second was going to be another boy, but only for maybe 2 seconds. Then I was super jazzed that all his bones and organs were accounted for and in the proper places.

[Voluminous Skirts]

If you do have a sex preference, does anyone know whether it's easier to adjust if you learn the sex via ultrasound or wait until birth? I'd imagine the former, but maybe the birth hormones help with the latter, I dunno.

[flyonthewall]

10 minutes ago, littlemommy said:

At one of my ultrasounds the technician was telling me about people freaking out when they found out their baby wasn't the desired sex, even going as far as to tear up the pictures. I was a little disappointed that my second was going to be another boy, but only for maybe 2 seconds. Then I was super jazzed that all his bones and organs were accounted for and in the proper places.

Years ago I was a member of a wedding planning forum which had a pregnancy/baby forum as well. The level of negative reaction some people had to the gender of their babies was so disturbing. I can get the 2 second disappointment but for people to reconsider having their child based on gender (yes, I saw this happen on this message board), was mind blowing. People are f*cked up. It's a reflection of this societies f*cked up values. Unbelievable.

[VineHeart137]

11 minutes ago, Voluminous Skirts said:

If you do have a sex preference, does anyone know whether it's easier to adjust if you learn the sex via ultrasound or wait until birth? I'd imagine the former, but maybe the birth hormones help with the latter, I dunno.

From what I've read it just depends on the person. Some people who were worried about having GD found out at the anatomy scan so they would have time to cry it out and process, other people found that not finding out until birth was helpful because once they saw their baby it didn't matter what their sex was. I've also read stories from women who found out early and then spent the rest of their pregnancy depressed, and from women who waited until birth and then had trouble bonding with their baby. So I think it's a toss up either way.

3 minutes ago, flyonthewall said:

Years ago I was a member of a wedding planning forum which had a pregnancy/baby forum as well. The level of negative reaction some people had to the gender of their babies was so disturbing. I can get the 2 second disappointment but for people to reconsider having their child based on gender (yes, I saw this happen on this message board), was mind blowing. People are f*cked up. It's a reflection of this societies f*cked up values. Unbelievable.

It really is astonishing the level of importance some people place on the sex of their children. I have also seen very, very strong negative reactions to people finding out their unborn child isn't the sex they wanted. It's sad.

[SassyPants]

53 minutes ago, scoutsadie said:

 

Ha - I wonder if it rankled Jill for that commenter to note that he looks like Jessa...

 

That's it- He does look like Jessa, with a JB nose.

[feministxtian]

Ok...the "proven birth canal" is really bugging me. I happily had 3 vaginal births...easy peasy. My daughter had 2 scheduled c-sections due to certain issues with her pelvis (got hit by a car, 7lbs of hardware keeping her lower body together). "Unproven" or not, she birthed my beautiful granddaughters. Does it REALLY fucking matter how our children got here? Does it really fucking matter how we feed our children (hamburgers included)? 

Baby gender...I am SO glad that I had my first 2 before ultrasounds were so popular. I was happily surprised when they emerged...one girl, one boy. My third showed us the goods at my 20 week u/s. I was thrilled...not because he was a boy, but because he had all the right parts in the right places. 

Maybe I'm just old but I can't wrap my head around the birth wars...at the end of the day the goal is healthy mama, healthy baby. Does it REALLY fucking matter HOW they got here? 

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, feministxtian said:

Ok...the "proven birth canal" is really bugging me. I happily had 3 vaginal births...easy peasy. My daughter had 2 scheduled c-sections due to certain issues with her pelvis (got hit by a car, 7lbs of hardware keeping her lower body together). "Unproven" or not, she birthed my beautiful granddaughters. Does it REALLY fucking matter how our children got here? Does it really fucking matter how we feed our children (hamburgers included)? 

Baby gender...I am SO glad that I had my first 2 before ultrasounds were so popular. I was happily surprised when they emerged...one girl, one boy. My third showed us the goods at my 20 week u/s. I was thrilled...not because he was a boy, but because he had all the right parts in the right places. 

Maybe I'm just old but I can't wrap my head around the birth wars...at the end of the day the goal is healthy mama, healthy baby. Does it REALLY fucking matter HOW they got here? 

I think for some people it IS really important how their babies get here, and I think for those people, people like you and me, who do not give a flying fig, our disregard is hurtful to them...us poo-pooing their strong desire to birth a certain way, makes us appear insensitive. 

On my late US during my second PG, they told me girl...I was mentally and physically prepared for having 2 daughters. Nope, I got a boy. It took me a good day to process that information. Again, healthy baby, healthy mom, hubs sent to buy some clothes and bridge built.

 

[meee]

32 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Maybe I'm just old but I can't wrap my head around the birth wars...at the end of the day the goal is healthy mama, healthy baby. Does it REALLY fucking matter HOW they got here? 

I can't figure out how to snip this. I meant to only quote your last paragraph. For the most part I agree with you, except (1) if you're planning to birth a zillion babies a C-section would probably get in the way of that (I still don't understand how Michelle had, what, 15 VBACs? Weren't Jana and JD born by C-section?), and (2) I would imagine that a C-section is a lot more painful and difficult to recover from than a VBAC, though I don't know anything from experience.  For one thing, Jill probably isn't allowed to lift anything heavier than the baby, and that includes Israel.

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, meee said:

I would imagine that a C-section is a lot more painful and difficult to recover from than a VBAC, though I don't know anything from experience.

I think that depends on the person. My stepdaughter was laid low by her c-section for a couple of months. After my daughter's second, she walked out of the hospital and was ready to rock and roll 4 days later. I also know people who were laid low by vaginal births too...

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I think for some people it IS really important how their babies get here, and I think for those people, people like you and me, who do not give a flying fig, our disregard is hurtful to them...us poo-pooing their strong desire to birth a certain way, makes us appear insensitive.

I can't really say what I'm thinking here...but in the immortal words of Don Henley..."Get over it". 

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

I am a haemophilia carrier so I must admit a girl might have been easier to deal with at the scan because I knew she wouldn't have haemophilia itself even if she got my dodgy X. But when the scan said boy the main thing was that everything else was fine and I knew haemophilia was manageable if it happened. As it turned out I didn't pass the dodgy X to my boy and haemophilia has now died out in my family. I must admit that I can understand a momentary disappointment if you have e.g. 3 of one sex and the  fourth shows the same but I find it hard to see why, beyond that moment, people can be told that everything is fine and still feel that a healthy baby is a calamity.  There are surely far far worse things to be told at a scan.

[Pinkdrink]

I didn't 'prove' my birth canal until my third baby but I didn't feel any different about her than I did about my first two. Recovery does take that bit longer though and not being able to pick up your toddler or really do anything heavy really does get to you so I can understand why jill may be taking it easy.

Funnily enough it was baby no four that was the toughest even though it was only 4 hours long, it went too fast for pain relief and I felt like I was in transition forever!

[Exposedknees]

It doesn't matter how they get here, just that they get here.

I'm proudly waving my unproven birth canal flag at everyone....wheee!

[breakfree]

I don't think it matters if the average woman has a proven birth canal or not, particularly once her childbearing years are over, whether by choice or necessity or biology. The average woman who wants an average sized family will go on to have that family without issue whether or not the birth canal is proven.

However, I think a lot of the rage comments here about who gives a crap ignores a small but real group of women for whom this does or might matter- those who are currently pregnant or wish to get pregnant with a pregnancy that is not their first. In this case it is a medical term that is used to help in a determination of a woman's suitability for and likelihood of succeeding at a vaginal birth. In general, a woman who has had a previous vaginal birth and has a 'proven' birth canal is a good candidate for another vaginal birth or a  VBAC, even if she had a cesarian in between. (See exhibit A, Michelle Duggar, who has said herself that she had 4 C-sections but went on to have VBACS after all of them- not sure if she is counting JD and Jana as one or two C-sections though).

In general a woman with one previous c-section with no vaginal births is also a decent candidate for a VBAC though it's less certain if it will work than if she had a proven birth canal. However, also in general, since every individual is different, once there have been 2 precious c-sections without any vaginal births, it becomes extremely unlikely that a vaginal birth will ever succeed. In this case the fact that someone's birth canal is unproven is very relevant and will be a major thing that is mentioned by a doctor when advising her about her realistic options and future fertility.

Medically it is not some term to divide real women from half women, it is a term used to simply mean that the woman has not delivered vaginally, and in some cases, to explain how this impacts her choices going forward.

[bal maiden]

"Healthy mother, healthy baby" is certainly the desired outcome for all expectant mothers. But I think that comment  (philosophy?) often misses the importance of  maternal mental health, not just physical. Birth trauma is real, and it doesn't just affect women who had a certain hope or expectation of how the birth would go. 

[December]

25 minutes ago, meee said:

I can't figure out how to snip this. I meant to only quote your last paragraph.

I snipped it for you. You should see a "quote this" link if you highlight text in someone else's post, or you can do this: http://www.freejinger.org/faq/1-site-related-questions/#elQuestion-81 

[meee]

8 minutes ago, December said:

I snipped it for you

thank you!!!

[Voluminous Skirts]

10 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

"Healthy mother, healthy baby" is certainly the desired outcome for all expectant mothers. But I think that comment  (philosophy?) often misses the importance of  maternal mental health, not just physical. Birth trauma is real, and it doesn't just affect women who had a certain hope or expectation of how the birth would go. 

Absolutely. Due to medical issues I haven't been able to have children yet, but all of my mom friends across the gamut of political, religious, and high/low intervention preferences agree that maternal mental health is hugely important and birth trauma is something to take seriously and spend a lot of effort minimizing. They also agree that medical consent is a significant part of feeling empowered and respected during birth, whether or not their plan A happens.

Childbirth is often one of the most significant experiences in a woman's life. It would be crazy and misogynistic to dismiss the mental and emotional importance of what that experience is like during the process, not just the physical outcome.

[EmmieJ]

7 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

But she doesn't know you. And no matter how many episodes of the shows you've watched, you don't actually know Jill either. Showing up to comfort her, even if done with the best intentions, would likely be creepy as fuck to her and I wouldn't blame her a bit for feeling that way.

 

THIS.  Imagine if you are living your life and some stranger showed up on your doorstep, with offers of sympathy and help in your difficult time.  How would you feel?  I'd probably quickly shut and lock the door and call 911.  It's great to be compassionate and caring.  It's not great to cross a line and invade someone's real life, even with the best of intentions.

[flyonthewall]

1 hour ago, VineHeart137 said:

Did Jill state that she really wanted a girl? Or is that just speculation? Just curious. 

I think she said she was guessing it was going to be a girl. I thought it was because the second pregnancy felt different than the first.

[HarleyQuinn]

I think she did say at one point she wanted a girl. When Israel's jinder reveal pictured was shared, she had on this bright pink fingernail polish that seemed so deliberate, like she was rooting for a girl. I know that's a weird thing to speculate on but I had never noticed Jill to be painting her nails bold colors like that, but there's the pink..

[bananabread]

I wholeheartedly believe that how a mother plans/chooses/ends up having children is exactly 0% my business or relevant to her womanhood. (Barring any ridiculously stupid and harmful decisions - I knew a woman who refused to go to the hospital even after being told her baby was in mortal danger. She literally begged the midwife to let her continue at home. She ended up needing an emergency c-section, and likely mother and baby would both have died had she stuck to her home birth plan. Hallelujah for modern medicine!)

But I think the whole "unproven birth canal" thing is a medical notion and significant in that way. If you have not yet had a successful non-cesarean delivery, birth is higher risk for you. The odds that you will need medical intervention increase, and so does anxiety for some women. There's a reason why many first-time mothers choose to give birth in a hospital, then try out a birth center or home birth the next time around if all goes smoothly. Some women can't have easy births, and you don't know if that's you until you've been in that position before. I'm very apprehensive about having biological children one day for that reason...several women in my family had extremely difficult births, and I won't know whether I'm in the same boat until it happens.

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

3 hours ago, Voluminous Skirts said:

[snip]

What if the silence is for legal reasons?

[snip]

I've been thinking along these lines, as well.  They are a litigious family as we know.