Josh & Anna 58: Losing JB's Money All the Way to the Supreme Court

[JermajestyDuggar]

I want to point out that Jinger just posted a picture of Rufus hanging on her wall yesterday. Great timing I suppose.

[postscript]

1. Josh may not have been the inmate with the alcohol, but I bet he’s tried booze by now. He seems like the kind of guy to enjoy kicking back with a beer in the evenings. 

2. The article says several of the inmates had contraband. They didn’t specify what the contraband was other than the alcohol. I’m betting Josh was one of those with contraband. Alternatively, if he didn’t have contraband this round, he’s had it in the past. He may whine about unjust punishment, but I’m sure he’s done something punishment-worthy. 

[Cam]

1 hour ago, postscript said:

1. Josh may not have been the inmate with the alcohol, but I bet he’s tried booze by now. He seems like the kind of guy to enjoy kicking back with a beer in the evenings. 

2. The article says several of the inmates had contraband. They didn’t specify what the contraband was other than the alcohol. I’m betting Josh was one of those with contraband. Alternatively, if he didn’t have contraband this round, he’s had it in the past. He may whine about unjust punishment, but I’m sure he’s done something punishment-worthy. 

Definitely agree he’s probably tried booze. 
I wonder how his surroundings influence him in other ways, too. Does he act superior? Or does he try to blend? Has he made allies with any other prisoner(s)? He’s been there how long now? He’s no longer the brand new guy, so does he pick on the newbies? Or try to recruit them to team Josh? 

[Expectopatronus]

In cases like this, I disagree with punishing the whole unit. It’s obvious who had the booze etc so there is no need to take privileges from everyone. It becomes about power flexing over individuals who have no power which I hate. The point of prison is supposed to be to rehabilitate individuals who otherwise pose a danger to society but power flexes will just breed resentment and anger. I don’t like what Josh did but I don’t think he or anyone else should be punished unless they specifically do something wrong. They are already being punished by being there. 

[Maggie Mae]

11 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

The point of prison is supposed to be to rehabilitate individuals who otherwise pose a danger to society

This isn't universally agreed on, in the US or elsewhere. It's why the US has such a problem with our prison/judicial system. The public favors retribution over rehabilitation right now.  But the public also likes the deterrent angle, or the prevention/impairment as well. 

I would assume Josh was caught with a cell phone over any other type of contraband. And not because he needs to call his minister/dad/wife; because he is actually addicted to pornography. 

I also believe he secretly drinks. And would take pills if anyone gave them to him. 

[Giraffe]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

Definitely agree he’s probably tried booze. 
I wonder how his surroundings influence him in other ways, too. Does he act superior? Or does he try to blend? Has he made allies with any other prisoner(s)? He’s been there how long now? He’s no longer the brand new guy, so does he pick on the newbies? Or try to recruit them to team Josh? 

IMO Josh is definitely someone who will be made worse from his prison stay. It's a whole new world of contraband he hasn't even considered. 

Edited March 21 by Giraffe

[Father Son Holy Goat]

13 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

This isn't universally agreed on, in the US or elsewhere. It's why the US has such a problem with our prison/judicial system. The public favors retribution over rehabilitation right now.  But the public also likes the deterrent angle, or the prevention/impairment as well. 

I would assume Josh was caught with a cell phone over any other type of contraband. And not because he needs to call his minister/dad/wife; because he is actually addicted to pornography. 

I also believe he secretly drinks. And would take pills if anyone gave them to him. 

I’d assume his contraband is cellphone and porn as well. Perhaps food as well. 

[noseybutt]

20 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

In cases like this, I disagree with punishing the whole unit. It’s obvious who had the booze etc so there is no need to take privileges from everyone. It becomes about power flexing over individuals who have no power which I hate. The point of prison is supposed to be to rehabilitate individuals who otherwise pose a danger to society but power flexes will just breed resentment and anger. I don’t like what Josh did but I don’t think he or anyone else should be punished unless they specifically do something wrong. They are already being punished by being there. 

Whole units are typically given consequences because the person who has the contraband is often not the person who really "owns" the contraband. Punishing the person who has it typically punishes the weaker inmate, not the inmate masterminding it all.

[Alisamer]

20 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

This isn't universally agreed on, in the US or elsewhere. It's why the US has such a problem with our prison/judicial system. The public favors retribution over rehabilitation right now.  But the public also likes the deterrent angle, or the prevention/impairment as well. 

This is one of those things I find tricky. Like, people who have committed real actual crimes? Yeah, if they can't act like civilized adults, then they should be kept out of society and if they act like toddlers then they can have the sort of "if one more person breaks a rule everyone is getting punished" treatment that elementary school kids often get. 

But, there are a lot of people in prison who maybe shouldn't be - who don't need punishment, they need HELP. Treatment for mental illness, treatment for addiction, etc. Not to mention those who are doing disproportionate time for more minor things like weed. 

Just about everyone in prison needs some kind of help, IMO. Some might be rehabilitated, some might not. And lots may not have ended up there in the first place if they or their families had support earlier in their lives. 

The system is just all messed up, IMO. 

But I'm glad Josh is locked up away from kids for a good long while. I think he'll come out worse than he went in, unfortunately, but at least he's out of society for a while.

[MariaariaM]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:30 PM, Expectopatronus said:

I bet the other inmates loved Josh pontificating on the sins of alcohol. I hope he’s smart enough to keep his gob shut. Anna and the kids don’t need more trauma from him getting beaten up in there. 

I wonder if he snitched. Part of reason for punishing the whole unit would be to encourage early snitching, right? I'd really like to know who he's trying to suck up to: the dominant residents of his unit or the wardens. Both?

[Father Son Holy Goat]

4 hours ago, MariaariaM said:

I wonder if he snitched. Part of reason for punishing the whole unit would be to encourage early snitching, right? I'd really like to know who he's trying to suck up to: the dominant residents of his unit or the wardens. Both?

If Josh doesn’t shut his mouth the inmates may do it for him. For his sake, I hope he keeps his head down and quietly does his time. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be his way. 

[AussieKrissy]

Snitches get stitches… with his crimes he would already not be  popular and then add snitching… 

[nokidsmom]

On 3/23/2024 at 9:20 AM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

If Josh doesn’t shut his mouth the inmates may do it for him. For his sake, I hope he keeps his head down and quietly does his time. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be his way. 

I never saw Josh doing well in prison and by that I mean, he would learn to avoid doing things that would make life a lot more difficult for him while there.  In fact, I think prison will have a major corrosive effect on him and ITA he will come out a lot worse than when he went in.

Honestly, if Anna ended up divorcing him while he's in there I would not be surprised nor would I blame her.   Yeah I know that's very unlikely as she loves him beyond all reason and that's her prerogative. But the life she is (presumably) waiting to resume with him will not be there for her.  He will be greatly changed and not for the better, sometimes I hope she will realize that and get out.

 

[Smee]

On 3/23/2024 at 3:52 AM, Alisamer said:

This is one of those things I find tricky. Like, people who have committed real actual crimes? Yeah, if they can't act like civilized adults, then they should be kept out of society and if they act like toddlers then they can have the sort of "if one more person breaks a rule everyone is getting punished" treatment that elementary school kids often get. 

I'm not a fan of it for elementary school kids either. There is inevitably at least a couple of kids sitting at their desks trying their darndest to do the right thing despite the chaos going on around them and they have no control over anyone else's behaviour, yet they suffer because of their peers' actions. Not much motivation to stay out of it again next time.

[peppergal]

I see that the government requested and was granted an extension until Apr 29 for responding to Josh's filing with the Supreme Court.  Apparently the staff had more important cases to worry about last month.

[SweetLaurel]

6 hours ago, Smee said:

I'm not a fan of it for elementary school kids either. There is inevitably at least a couple of kids sitting at their desks trying their darndest to do the right thing despite the chaos going on around them and they have no control over anyone else's behaviour, yet they suffer because of their peers' actions. Not much motivation to stay out of it again next time.

I have always questioned that line of thought. The reasoning behind punishing the entire class is peer pressure. People will be so irked with the wrong doer they will pressure them into doing differently. But then we turn around and tell kids not to succumb to peer pressure! Be your own person! Do what you feel is right!  I mean, peer pressure is a thing, but that is entirely different messages, especially for kids finding their ways.   

I know jail has its own sets of peer pressure. I have a relative who went to jail for arson and was pressured into getting a tattoo - an abhorrant one - because otherwise he would not be under protection. Jails suck. When I was a kid we lived in a minimum security jail town - there was no fence around it. The inmates worked in the fields. They grew their own veggies,  there were chickens, cows and pigs raised there from birth to slaughter and they did it all. They were taught to train dogs.  They did all the cooking and cleaning. They made the license plates people put on their cars. There were college classes and the chance to get your GED. They cleaned up the highways. They welded. They got out of there having a skill to use. Most of them were in there, of course for petty crimes - and at the time marjuana was high (!!) on the list of reasons. Petty theft, etc. But for some reason they did away with most of that. They still have college but all the work has gone by the wayside. My brother who was a guard there for years said the boredom was awful and a cause of a lot of issues.  

Edited April 3 by SweetLaurel

[Coconut Flan]

Inmates sued to be paid for their work.

[Expectopatronus]

19 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Inmates sued to be paid for their work.

That’s fair. If inmates are working 8-10 hour days they should receive some compensation. Otherwise, it’s legalized slavery. 

[Giraffe]

44 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

That’s fair. If inmates are working 8-10 hour days they should receive some compensation. Otherwise, it’s legalized slavery. 

Not "otherwise." It is literally legalized slavery. 
 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-13/section-1/exceptions-clause

Edited April 3 by Giraffe

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

Inmates sued to be paid for their work.

Yes, prisoners have sued over the years but no, this has nothing to do with work programs being shuttered in prisons.

Here's a link to show data from 2017, and gist is that no one was making over $1.00 per hour. (California wildland prisoner firefighters are an exception. They make around $5-$10/hour in the fire camps.) Federal prisoners make $0.10 to $0.40 per hour.

There are many reasons why facilities and programs are shuttered or reimagined, but wages for prisoners within this $80 billion dollar industry are so inconsequential as to rarely be included in the decision making process. Politically, yes, it is given as a reason. But the numbers tell a very different story.

45 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Not "otherwise." It is literally legalized slavery. 
 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-13/section-1/exceptions-clause

Yup, 13th.  

One of the least known amendments and how it shaped American history. 

Edited April 3 by noseybutt

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Why can’t they pay them a fair wage and keep the bulk of it in savings to be given to the inmate upon release? It would make it easier for them to establish housing, transportation, and jobs upon release. 

[Giraffe]

17 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Why can’t they pay them a fair wage and keep the bulk of it in savings to be given to the inmate upon release? It would make it easier for them to establish housing, transportation, and jobs upon release. 

Because the lawmakers who decided it don't want to make anything easier for them. It's not actually about rehabilitating people. It's about control and othering people and degrading them as much as possible. 

Edited April 4 by Giraffe

[Kiki03910]

2 hours ago, Giraffe said:

Because the lawmakers who decided it don't want to make anything easier for them. It's not actually about rehabilitating people. It's about control and othering people and degrading them as much as possible. 

Especially a very specific subset of people. It was no accident that the prison population surged after 1865.

https://www.vera.org/reimagining-prison-web-report/american-history-race-and-prison

Slavery in this country is very much alive and well.

[HeartsAFundie]

23 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Why can’t they pay them a fair wage and keep the bulk of it in savings to be given to the inmate upon release? It would make it easier for them to establish housing, transportation, and jobs upon release. 

I was watching "Prison Brides" on Lifetime and one of the inmates was incarcerated in a special work-release program in Wichita, KS.  He had an actual job as a welder while serving his sentence.  The prison trained him for the job, he was shuttled back and forth to his job by the prison, lived in the separate work-release facility as opposed to being in the actual prison and made a decent wage-enough that he had a bank account with 80K in it upon release.  

I am assuming he had to apply to the work-release program while in prison and was admitted to it contingent upon his conduct, and that those in the program had to follow the rules to the letter in order to remain in it.  But I found the whole idea intriguing because these inmates in the program were not only being released back into society with skills and possible employment, but they were also being released with decent bank accounts of their saved earnings.   What a nice head start that gives them!    

https://www.doc.ks.gov/facilities/wwrf/overview

Edited April 5 by HeartsAFundie

[marmalade]

Even if Seagoville offered something similar, I doubt Smuggar would participate. Lazy is his middle name. He does the least amount of work possible to look legit.