Dillards 30 - Lawsuit Tweets and Leaving Danger America

[Taylurker]

Here is a picture - She's the last one


Hmm, I thought I heard that they drove an hour away? Looking at the wayback list, there were quite a few Fayetteville midwives licensed at the time, so maybe they didn't.

[frugalitymom]

I'm almost certain Anna went to Fort Smith, I'm close to there and it's not uncommon for people to drive an hour for a obgyn so I'm thinking it would be the same for birthing centers 

[Taylurker]

Betty Bogachoff was a(n) LMW in Kingston, AR with a license set to expire 8-31-2014, and she died December 2014. But she doesn't look like the woman pictured above. http://www.nelsonfuneral.com/obituaries/obituary-listings?obId=370961

Also, the locations of Marcus and Meredith's births look the same. Look at the bed rails and the wall colors.

Marcus' Birth:


Meredith's Birth:



So, I'm not sure who she is, but it's not Betty, and apparently not a CNM.

[Bethella]

The woman next to Michelle in that picture is Deborah Query who was an apprentice midwife in 2013. Her supervisors were Joy Coonfield and Lucy Ferguson, but neither one looks like the woman in the photo. 

[Taylurker]

5 minutes ago, Bethella said:

The woman next to Michelle in that picture is Deborah Query who was an apprentice midwife in 2013. Her supervisors were Joy Coonfield and Lucy Ferguson, but neither one looks like the woman in the photo. 

Yeah, I looked for pictures and neither of them look like the midwife who delivered Marcus (and 99.9% sure also Meredith), either current or old pics.

[Taylurker]

Okay, I figured it out. The midwife IS Shelley Wasson, a(n) LM and CPM. She is out of Barling, AR,  roughly an hour away. I found her facebook. I'm not sure if I am allowed to post that or not, so here is her photo:


As of July 2015, she was still listed as a licensed LM provider according to the WBM. And up until August 2016, when the current list of licenses expired. So it seems that she has either lapsed her license or retired. I wonder who Anna is using now, if Shelley is no longer practicing. And I wonder about Jill as well. Shelley is the real deal.

Also I guess the current list IS for 2018. I'm pretty sure that the LMWs renew their licenses every two years, not four.

[marmalade]

BUT, Shelly Wasson did not re up on her LMW license after it expired in 2014. She is not on the current LMW listing. All LMWs in AR have four year licenses which all expire on 8/31/14, 18, etc. So, all current LMWs licences currenty expire next year. 

She could have delivered Marcus but if she delivered Meredith, it was a a CPM, not a LMW. I have some channels to inquire about CPMs delivering babies in AR. Laws vary state by state. 

[PainfullyAware]

Wait, so Jill was able to apprentice for a certification that is invalid in her state? How is it legal for fully accredited LMWs to accept apprentices only training to be CPMs? Wouldn't that only encourage illegal CPMs attending home births?  I don't understand why Jill wouldn't go directly for the LMW in the first place. It all sounds so sketchy to me.  All I know is that in Ontario Canada, where I live,  midwifery is a 4 yr degree and I don't think there are any other certification options...

[Taylurker]

Use this July 2016 link from the Wayback Machine, and click on the pdf. She's listed.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150720091336/http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov:80/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Pages/LayMidwifery.aspx

[marmalade]

The latest update I have is from October 2016, and she's not listed. Her expiration on your link is 2014. At any rate, apparently Debora Query was apprenticing under her, unless they lied to us (she's now working up north of Siloam Springs, in the opposite direction of Fort Smith. eta: Debora did apprentice with the woman up north, over 100 miles from where Anna apparently gave birth to Marcus. eta: They lied, or Debora drove over 100 miles to attend Anna's birth. 

But the observation of Fort Smith makes sense with the Marcus delivery that we saw. Barling is 8 miles away. Still, a 60 mile drive. Not sure about Meredith; maybe several midwives' delivery rooms are painted that bland beige color.  

No one said Duggars were intelligent. Venessa still had her license, and the scandal was a year away. I wonder why they didn't use her? 

[Taylurker]

My link says 2016. Let me try again?  https://web.archive.org/web/20151227194629/http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LicensedLayMidwives.pdf

This says licenses are valid for two years. 300 http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/aboutADH/RulesRegs/LayMidwifery.pdf

As for why Jill and Jessa chose crappy midwives, I have no clue. Anna used them at first, too, but then she wised up. I hope she doesn't go back to Teresa or Venessa this time. I don't see why she would after the experience of using a good midwife twice, though.

[marmalade]

Ah, I thought it was two, but I never found any 2016 expiration records. But I have the current rolls, and she's not on it. But with that revelation, she could well have delivered Meredith, and Mrs. Query, close family friend, had nothing to do with either delivery. 

[marmalade]

Current list of LMWs in AR. Note, no Jill Duggar. I read that she and Jana's training was compromised when Venessa, their proctor, lost her license. 

 

eta: She must have retired sometime in the past two years. She didn't re-up on her license after 2016. 

[Taylurker]

19 minutes ago, marmalade said:

Ah, I thought it was two, but I never found any 2016 expiration records. But I have the current rolls, and she's not on it. But with that revelation, she could well have delivered Meredith, and Mrs. Query, close family friend, had nothing to do with either delivery. 

Shelley definitely delivered Marcus, and I'm willing to bet Meredith, too.

I am sure that Anna will go with another LM with a good reputation. She's too smart to not to. She knows better.

Jill, OTOH, I don't know. Because of the VBAC rules for Arkansas midwives, she may be under the care of someone unlicensed. Or maybe she's found a supportive OB/GYN. I just hope that she does not go with either of those two goons. Even a proper CPM would be better, although I dunno if they can practice in AR or not.

About Jill and Jana's training - that is really an unfortunate setback.

Apparently Jill and Jana's permits expired in 2015. Jill apprenticed under Joy, Venessa and Shelley. Jana only apprenticed under Venessa. https://web.archive.org/web/20131102022140/http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov:80/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LicensedMidwifeApprentices.pdf

[MadeItOut]

4 hours ago, marmalade said:

 

So sorry marmalade, I'm on mobile and it's insisting on a quote box I can't get rid of.

 

I'm just thinking back to Meredith's birth - was it not at the TTH? I was only reading back then, not engaging fully so I could be remembering wrong, or remembering an elsewhere conversation, but I vaguely remember a conversation trying to work out where within the house from Meechelle's gestures on the announcement video, and who, if anyone, they brought in for her?

...equally possibile: MIO finally lost it...

[marmalade]

I am still not sure where Mere was born. But I found this interesting. Derelict is claiming Jill is a CPM, which in AR is NOT the equivalent of a lay midwife. She never took the state exam  and is not on the list of lay midwives I posted of renewals last year. Yes, they were in Danger America, but she could have flown back to do whatever it took to get her cetifications. Or she could be doing it now, but it looks like she's just lazing around with Jessa at the TTH, attending weddings, or parties. IOW, doing nothing to further her training. And we would know about it; they brag endlessly over the littlest things. 

1 hour ago, MadeItOut said:

So sorry marmalade, I'm on mobile and it's insisting on a quote box I can't get rid of.

 

I'm just thinking back to Meredith's birth - was it not at the TTH? I was only reading back then, not engaging fully so I could be remembering wrong, or remembering an elsewhere conversation, but I vaguely remember a conversation trying to work out where within the house from Meechelle's gestures on the announcement video, and who, if anyone, they brought in for her?

...equally possibile: MIO finally lost it...

http://arkansaspublicmedia.org/post/arkansas-midwives-face-new-regulatory-restrictions

Quote

There are just 27 CPM's, also referred to as licensed lay midwives, practicing in Arkansas.

As I posted above, Jill is not one of them. Derelict flat out lied about her licensure when she passed  NARM test between their stints in Danger America in 2015. Yes, CPM, but not regulated to attend births as sole practitioner in her state. CPMs are not allowed to practice in almost half the states as in some states they can't administer things as simple as pitocin or IV's. 

Derelict's blog (stop calling her a CPM - LMW is NOT its equivalent in Arkansas). She would be on any of the list that @Taylurker and I pored over earlier tonight/this morning had she taken the following exam. We have been very thorough, and the one thing we never saw was Jill's name,  other than on apprentice rolls. AR has very strict laws about who can practice legal midwifery, some of the strictest in the country. 

https://www.dillardfamily.com/dillard family blog?ID=7638a227-710c-40a5-b979-a39204411470

[Eternalbluepearl]

58 minutes ago, marmalade said:

Derelict's blog (stop calling her a CPM - or its equivalent LMW in Arkansas). She would be on any of the list that @Taylurker and I pored over earlier tonight/this morning. We have been very thorough, and the one thing we never saw was Jill's name, 

On Counting On, they showed Jill "getting her hands on bellies" in Danger America and listening to Jessa' s baby's heartbeat in The big free mansion. I guess It's just a fantasy of Jill's and not reality? Jill certainly could have really trained and gotten her license. She is young, capable and seems to have the interest. But lies instead. I don't get it. Is there a rule that you must not have a real honest-to-god helping others besides your siblings job in fundieland? Thou shall type up newsletters about Jesus and banana bread instead. *barf* Jill and Derick piss me off. They have youth, time and opportunity and waste it all. 

 

The Teresa F. Is Teresa Fedosky, a doula in Springdale, Arkansas. Long story short, the Duggars prize "knowing the lord" over "licenses", and "safety." 

[marmalade]

It's been two years. I wonder how long she has to take the AR LMW exam before they require her to either retake NARM or take updated classes or clinical hours? She certainly has a month or so to get that in before the next blessing comes. After that? I doubt she will ever pursue full licensure in her state. When the experiment in Danger America fails (and it will), she will still have to pass NARM in two neighboring states (OK/MO) that seem to have fewer regulations. Hell, Venessa can practice in those states as well as Texas! 

[VelociRapture]

It's possible Jill originally intended to get the full licensure... unfortunately, Venessa losing her license (or whatever) could have really screwed her over. It's also possible that juggling a very rambunctious Izzy and now adding a second boy to the family  has made things much harder for her than she originally expected. Same with the missioncation in SCA.

Jill makes me sad in this case. She was clearly very interested and invested in Midwifery. She it in early hours and she seems like she worked hard on the educational requirements. She's one of the only Duggars we've seen really pursue and stick with some sort of additional education beyond the GED. If she ever did pursue full licensure then she may be competent enough to be of real use on the mission field - even if she only helps provide the most basic prenatal care when an expectant mother can't get to her normal practitioner or if she acts more like a Doula or support person for the laboring mother.

Geeze. I don't like feeling bad for her because White savior complex. But she's one of the only adult Duggars we've seen with actual drive and interests. Pisses me off that she was born into such a restrictive environment because with more nurturing and educationally driven parents she really could have had the chance to accomplish more than she's been given the chance to. Instead, she's only had the chance thus far to become a half-ass "Midwife" with questionable employment opportunities.

(Not getting into her birth for Izzy. I've heard it can be very tough for even the most competent Doctor or Nurse to grasp the concept that they need to let go and allow other professionals to care for them as patients. And that even the best Doctor or Nurse an screw up care for themself by not letting go of control. So I don't know if we can fully judge Jill's conpetency or potential skills based off that situation.)

[marmalade]

The thing with Jill is  that she passed that NARM exam, which grants CPM priveleges. Unfortunately, AR is one of those states that don't recognize CPMs. If she was really dedicated, she could have studied during her time in Danger America. If not online, I'm sure there are readers, books, etc. she could have utilized. When going through Derelict's IG, I saw her with a classic college reader with baby Izzy on her lap, so it's not as if this concept is new to her. 

She wasted a lot of time in DA that she could have used to get herself licensed in AR, since it looks like they will be in the States for quite a while after Dilly 2 is born. I don't see them returning to DA until just before the December missioncations are scheduled. Plenty of time to retake NARM if she has to (don't know if that's permanent or not) and get licensure through 8/18, then renew it via internet in DA if they happen to be down there next spring/summer. Who knows with them? She'll probably return for Joy's birth, rather than facetiming a birth (Spurge). 

I still wonder if Jessa had another officially unattended birth, since Jill's CPM doesn't mean shit in Arkansas?

[Rachel333]

That list of midwives is shorter than I would have expected. If there are only 27 in the state it seems like that could be a good business to get into, especially for a fundie woman who has few other acceptable options and probably has personal connections to a lot of women who would want to use a midwife. And in the fundie world there would be a lot of repeat customers!

I notice everyone on that list appears to be a woman, judging by the names. (Aside: It took me a moment to realize that "NaDean" sounds like "Nadine." I hadn't seen that spelling before.) I can imagine that a male midwife would have a harder time getting business.

[Bethella]

I don't think Jill can take the AR licensing exam. Jill's apprentice license disappeared after the stuff with Venessa, which was before it was due to expire. Unless she's been getting equivalent experience in Danger America, I suspect that she would have to completely redo the apprenticeship in order to sit the AR exam. It probably wouldn't be worth getting licensed in AR if they really intend to stay in Danger America, especially with the continuing education requirements.

[Taylurker]

IMHO, an unassisted birth is better than having a bad attendant. I wouldn't touch Teresa F. or Venessa with a 10, no, 10,000-foot pole. Also, I would love to have a male midwife!

Having your proctor's license revoked could definitely screw up your midwife apprenticeship. Most likely, any births you attended with them could be rendered invalid and wouldn't count towards your total. In Arkansas, supervised births are filed under the proctor's name. If it's true that your supervised births with a proctor who was then discredited wouldn't count, then it's probably for good reason. After all, why should the state license someone who learned from a negligible proctor?

As for the NARM exam and licensure, a certain number of prenatal visits, births, and postnatal births are required prior to CPM licensure/accreditation. It can take a few years to complete, and you typically do not get paid for your time.

Jill and Jana's apprenticeship permits were set to expire on 8-31-2015, but their names were removed from the list before that time period was up, so it could very well be that Venessa screwed them over. But if that were true, then Jill wouldn't be a CPM, would she? - BUT she could have had extra births under her thumb from Joy and Shelley, and had her LM apprenticeship permit revoked (along with Jana's) because of Venessa, effectively starting the AR lay midwife licensure over, but only discounting births with Venessa for the CPM and NARM qualification. In other words, her LM apprenticeship permit may have been completely affected by Venessa's license revocation, but her CPM goal only partially affected, which is how she became a CPM in September 2015.

A CM, CPM and CNM are all considered direct-entry midwives with some form of midwifery education. These are all legal in AR, according to NARM. http://narm.org/pdffiles/Statechart.pdf

Now, Jill and Jana are NOT on the list of Licensed Lay Midwives of Arkansas, but that is not the same thing as a CPM. Here is info about the types of midwives: http://www.graduatenursingedu.org/careers/certified-nurse-midwife/what-is-a-midwife/ Jill had to have worked hard to become a CPM.

[HarleyQuinn]

Didn't Jill take her exam in Texas? Maybe she's only certified there.

[Bethella]

1 minute ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Didn't Jill take her exam in Texas? Maybe she's only certified there.

Jill took the NARM exam which is national, but only in those states that accept it. At one point I looked it up and she could practice over the boarder in Oklahoma or Missouri with just the NARM certification. I'm not sure what Texas' requirements are.