Dillards 27 - Allergies, Fever, and the Dangers of Being a White Baby

[Pukingpearl]

28 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Isn't Josh's (piece of shit) remark the only "proof" of her being a tattle tale? Or did other brothers and sisters say that too? Because if what I'm remember is correct, it's unfair to call her a tattle-tale for reporting her brother's molestation of her and her sisters. 

I wasn't referring the that particular instance as tattling at all. That was very brave, especially in a house like theirs, especially if you consider the victim blaming that was going on. 

I was more thinking of her demeanor for the entirety of their time on camera growing up. Like when someone stole her candy and she forced all her siblings to open their mouths while he checked for candy and then telling her parents. That's the general vibe she's always given off to me...the one where if our express a desire to live in  big city, you get a tongue lashing. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

2 hours ago, Pukingpearl said:

I think Jill was the crown jewel for her parents. She was a totally self righteous kid who got smothered with praise and approval from JB and Michelle for every little thing she did, and in a house with that much competition for love, she lapped up their praise and I think it drove her forward in everything she did with her buddies and parroting their beliefs and tattling. Now that she's off on her own, I don't think she's getting much attention and just has to raise a kid for the sake of raising the kid, and it's not nearly as satisfying being the mom whose job it is versus the perfect daughter-wife. Her external motivation is gone. 

Also I don't think the duggars were trained in safety at all. And also she might legitimately be depressed beyond her will. 

I'm rambling. 

^^ This sums it up nicely. ^^

Her external motivation is gone. I wonder what she is internally motivated to do?

Parenting is a thankless job, so if praise is her motivator, she better have a back up plan or a side job. I doubt her obtuse husband would know what to say. Even non-fundie guys struggle to recognize the contributions of their wives as caretakers. Derick was told to expect a dutiful caregiver. It wasn't part of his deal to have to uplift his wife, and it's not like he's a trained preacher or qualified to spiritually counsel anyone. 

 I don't know if mission-cation will give Jilly the praise she craves. Her immediate circle of leg humpers support mission-cation. She appears to be seeking validation from them for her mission-cation work, and to a lesser extent, her struggles of parenting in CA, through her blog.

She may be unaware of the extent that the mainstream component of her audience does not support mission-cation. If she is aware of the disapproval from the "middle viewers," which is a less vocal, but much larger group than the leg humpers, and she is in fact driven by praise, it could negatively affect her emotionally. That could definitely play a part in her perceived depression because mission-cation is only fulfilling as long as it garners praise. Then what? What could she do to get praise if mission-cation and parenting don't produce? Ummmm... Think for herself? ... or... Ask the headship? 

Of course, she can't tell Derick if she's unsatisfied. He's an internally motivated zealot. He will tell her God's work is worth the struggle and she will feel content as long as she prays to be a better Christian. She got herself into a real mess. 

54 minutes ago, Pukingpearl said:

I wasn't referring the that particular instance as tattling at all. That was very brave, especially in a house like theirs, especially if you consider the victim blaming that was going on. 

She deserves tremendous praise for this. I know this is a snark blog, but I'm not being sarcastic. This took major guts. 

[Gobsmacked]

On 9 March 2017 at 3:41 PM, SassyPants said:

But this thinking is so short sided- either JB is stupid or very, very perverse.

Think about it. He controlled his kids to the point of dulling their intellect and rendering them unable to function in every day society. That's what we are seeing with Jill-Josh and probably Jessa too, if she didn't have the village at her every whim and disposal.

So, how did JB think the cult would grow beyond is own life and pocketbook?

It will die out because none of the kids, or at this point their spouses, have the ability to become JB...well, maybe JD or Jana, but they have no adult credibility, because as single people, they are still considered "kids".

J-B is BOTH stupid and very++ perverse.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

I think Jessa is just a person who loves HER children. She might not like children that much outside of her own but she loves hers. There's nothing wrong with that many women are like that. 

Could be.

Do you think she'll love a potential child 10, 14, 18 as much???

I think Jessa's personality is just gruff- she seems bossy with everyone, not just her siblings.

[Carm_88]

13 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Could be.

Do you think she'll love a potential child 10, 14, 18 as much???

I think Jessa's personality is just gruff- she seems bossy with everyone, not just her siblings.

No, I don't think that anyone can care for 18 children equally. I'm not sure about love, do you have favourites? Probably my Dad was the favoured child of 8. 

I'm bossy and can seem gruff. Doesn't mean I don't care for people, it just means that I like things my way. 

[Kelsey]

1 hour ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

^^ This sums it up nicely. ^^

Her external motivation is gone. I wonder what she is internally motivated to do?

Parenting is a thankless job, so if praise is her motivator, she better have a back up plan or a side job. I doubt her obtuse husband would know what to say. Even non-fundie guys struggle to recognize the contributions of their wives as caretakers. Derick was told to expect a dutiful caregiver. It wasn't part of his deal to have to uplift his wife, and it's not like he's a trained preacher or qualified to spiritually counsel anyone. 

 I don't know if mission-cation will give Jilly the praise she craves. Her immediate circle of leg humpers support mission-cation. She appears to be seeking validation from them for her mission-cation work, and to a lesser extent, her struggles of parenting in CA, through her blog.

She may be unaware of the extent that the mainstream component of her audience does not support mission-cation. If she is aware of the disapproval from the "middle viewers," which is a less vocal, but much larger group than the leg humpers, and she is in fact driven by praise, it could negatively affect her emotionally. That could definitely play a part in her perceived depression because mission-cation is only fulfilling as long as it garners praise. Then what? What could she do to get praise if mission-cation and parenting don't produce? Ummmm... Think for herself? ... or... Ask the headship? 

Of course, she can't tell Derick if she's unsatisfied. He's an internally motivated zealot. He will tell her God's work is worth the struggle and she will feel content as long as she prays to be a better Christian. She got herself into a real mess. 

She deserves tremendous praise for this. I know this is a snark blog, but I'm not being sarcastic. This took major guts. 

JIll was not the whistle-blower on POS Josh's behavior. Both Jill and Jessa said on the tv interview that they didn't know they were molested until JB/M told them.

[SassyPants]

16 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

No, I don't think that anyone can care for 18 children equally. I'm not sure about love, do you have favourites? Probably my Dad was the favoured child of 8. 

I'm bossy and can seem gruff. Doesn't mean I don't care for people, it just means that I like things my way. 

Everyone likes things their way- some just roll with things better. Not a judgment, just a fact. But you tell how people perceive one approach over the other. *See the Duggar sibs' responses*

[Million Children For Jesus]

2 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

Jill was not the whistle-blower on POS Josh's behavior. Both Jill and Jessa said on the tv interview that they didn't know they were molested until JB/M told them.

Interesting. So Josh told on himself? He outed himself about the porn addiction, too. He had not been caught for that as far as I know. He had only been outed about the Ashley Madison account. He outed himself about the porn and then he took the apology/admission down. I'm sure his parents or his worlds-worst-crisis-manager-ever, Chad Gallagher, made him take it down. It doesn't add up when people say that Josh isn't sorry, only sorry he got caught. He didn't get caught 2 out of 3 times. He told on himself.

A lot of times when people act out they want to get caught. It's a typical behavior in dysfunctional families. One child will act out, in an exaggerated way, the unresolved dysfunctional dynamics of the family. Like Michelle being joyfully available and Jim Bob being entitled to physical touch manifests into Josh being entitled and touching his sisters. Plus, all the ATI "blame the victim" grooming, they lived all piled on top of each other back then, and the kids were home all day home schooling, so it was a recipe for disaster. Not making excuses. Just highlighting root causes.

I bet the marriage counseling the Smuggars get now tells them to rely on family instead of what they really need to do, which is disconnect from his family. He's never going to get better unless he gets away from his parents.

Do you know how the rumor started that Jill told? 

[RosyDaisy]

Josh was also "betrothed" at the time per a message board post by "concernedmom". That's interesting.

[socalrules]

I could swear I read somewhere that it was one of the girls that told their parents about what Josh was doing. I highly doubt Josh confessed without being confronted by his parents first. 

[apandaaries]

1 hour ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

Interesting. So Josh told on himself? <snip>

Do you know how the rumor started that Jill told? 

The best place to go for this is the police report (pages 14 and 15 are especially helpful here): 

It appears, according to the Duggars, that both are true.  Josh outed himself in July 2002, coming to JB crying.  JB & M "disciplined" him. Then in March of 2003, he struck again, but this victim ran to the parents and reported the event.  It was only after he had begun, been "disciplined," then became more aggressive and predatory that they finally sent him away to Jesus Jail 1.0.  

ETA: Somewhere between Josh's first confession and one of the victims going to the parents, there was the laundry room assault.  My cynical mind wonders if the parents were less concerned with sleeping victims, and if they only sent him away because he started seeking out conscious victims.  JB & M only took significant action after a victim came to them.   

[Letizia]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Could be.

Do you think she'll love a potential child 10, 14, 18 as much???

I think Jessa's personality is just gruff- she seems bossy with everyone, not just her siblings.

I think if she gets overwhelmed she'll stop/slow down on the breeding as opposed  to having a psychotic break with reality like her mother. I just don't think someone like Jessa could truly function in a super chaotic overwhelming environment (again) no matter how gung ho she seems at this point. Given that she is the opposite of their keep sweet ideal and she married someone a lot more pliable than she is I see her ceasing to practice what she preaches once it loses the enjoyment factor. Of course in typical religious hypocrite fashion I can see her continue to preach her bullshit. 

On the other hand I'm legit worried for Jill's mental health if things stay in their current state. That concern will massively increase if the next birth is a struggle like Israel's. I almost wish Jim Bob would intervene since Jill is obviously incapable of speaking up for herself. I wonder if Derrick's mom has noticed how much Jill is struggling and if she'd say anything to her son or Jill. 

[bal maiden]

Isn't Izzy over 2 years old? Most airlines require a child over 2 to have their own seat. And besides, a car seat is by far the safest way for a small child to travel on a plane. A normal plane seatbelt will do nothing for a toddler aged child, and lap travel is even less safe. No snark from me for them taking the car seat on the plane! 

[Kelsey]

18 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

Isn't Izzy over 2 years old? Most airlines require a child over 2 to have their own seat. And besides, a car seat is by far the safest way for a small child to travel on a plane. A normal plane seatbelt will do nothing for a toddler aged child, and lap travel is even less safe. No snark from me for them taking the car seat on the plane! 

I think he turns two in April.

 

About the above discussion- yes initially Josh told on himself. He knew he was doing wrong and sought help from his parents. They failed him. They failed Josh just as much as they failed the girls. 

[unicorncastle]

46 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

About the above discussion- yes initially Josh told on himself. He knew he was doing wrong and sought help from his parents. They failed him. They failed Josh just as much as they failed the girls. 

 

I agree with this so much. Everything that happened in that house is on JB and Michelle. They failed all of their children. Was it okay what Josh was doing? Absolutely not, however, if they had gotten him proper, legitimate help the first time he came to them, then maybe the rest of the trauma could have been avoided. 

[Fun Undies]

Whew.  Caught up!  My thoughts:

I think Derick has wanderlust, and is a zealot, AND is running away from whatever the hell is going on with him chronically (be it physical/mental, or both).  This all is a bad combination, and I really, truly believe he's not thinking clearly (Twitter, anyone?).

When a spouse is dealing with chronic health issues, it's hard on the partner, and can put a wedge between even the strongest couples.  Though I'm sure they love each other, I wonder how deep their conversations get?  If Derick isn't feeling up for deep conversations due to illness, stress, or just a lack of being able to communicate his frustrations with his health - and Jill, being told not to question anything, and agree with her headship, at all times - well really, is it any wonder she's falling apart at the seams? 

The only other people she can talk to (and that she probably feels "get her"), are thousands of miles away.  And sadly, how likely is it that they brush off her concerns and tell her to "keep sweet"?  Though *obviously* that does not excuse the shower incident with Izzy, I have a hard time imagining Jill shoving him callously under freezing water (maybe it was cold, but not blistering?).  She's overwhelmed, (and surely) not being heard, and IF Izzy is being a handful (personally, I never really got that picture, but ok) - how much of it is him realizing that his parents are stressed, probably depressed, anxious, and just under so much pressure (mostly self inflicted), that he's doing the only thing a toddler can do: react subconsciously through his physical actions?

^ hopefully that's coherent enough, been a long week!  Happy Friday everybody

[VineHeart137]

Re: Izzy being a handful- I think Israel kind of gets some (unfair?) flack about being high maintenance because people tend to compare him to Spurgeon, who from what we've seen, seems to be one of the chillest toddlers ever. Also, there was an episode when all the siblings were describing both boys- I don't remember the exact words used, but Spurgeon was basically getting stuff like pleasant and laid-back, and Izzy was getting described as "spirited" and other similar words that were pretty much a nice way of saying "he bounces off the walls."

If he really is a handful, beyond normal toddler boundary testing, I do think it's entirely possible he's feeding off Jill's anxiety and Derick's overall negative vibes and it's causing him to "act out." Not that Derick would care.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

10 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I think Jessa is just a person who loves HER children. She might not like children that much outside of her own but she loves hers. There's nothing wrong with that many women are like that. 

My own mother is like this. 

She's a great mother and a great grandmother to her own offspring, but she isn't really a "kid person" outside of us and that;s completely OK. You can be a good grand/mother without being the 'kid' type. A lot of people who knew her were surprised how good she was with us because "she's not the kid type AT ALL". And now she's in her 50s and she still isn't the 'other people's kids' type. 

I do agree it is 'easier' for Blessa since she has 'the village' while Jilly Muffin is down in El Salvador. but I'll be honest and admit that as soon as Blessed was pregnant, I expected her to be the one basically 'dumping' the baby off at the TTH while she was off getting her nails done. But she really does seem to do a lot of the child rearing work herself (even though she has have help and support from her large family). I'm pleasantly surprised by how much she seems to enjoy her kids tbh.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

14 hours ago, Pukingpearl said:

I think Jill was the crown jewel for her parents. She was a totally self righteous kid who got smothered with praise and approval from JB and Michelle for every little thing she did, and in a house with that much competition for love, she lapped up their praise and I think it drove her forward in everything she did with her buddies and parroting their beliefs and tattling. Now that she's off on her own, I don't think she's getting much attention and just has to raise a kid for the sake of raising the kid, and it's not nearly as satisfying being the mom whose job it is versus the perfect daughter-wife. Her external motivation is gone. 

Also I don't think the duggars were trained in safety at all. And also she might legitimately be depressed beyond her will. 

I'm rambling. 

It is very hard to tell if another person is depressed, but I definitely don't think Jill is happy and the "keep sweet" and "God's will" and "listen to the headship" culture she was raised in must make it even more difficult for her. I think she really wants out of El Salvador, but feels like she has to do whatever it is De-wreck (I'm stealing that nickname from whoever coined it, it's perfect) wants to do, which in this case, means continuing to be in El Salvador. 

I also agree that I think Jill was largely motivated by the praise she got for being the perfect little sistermom. Even during her pregnancy, she got a lot of attention because it was her first pregnancy, it was the first daughter to be pregnant, and I'm sure she enjoyed that. And now she's not getting a lot of attention for the second baby and it's only going to get "worse" now she is "competing" with Jessa  having kids, Joe courting, Joy being engaged, Jinger recently married and likely to have a first baby soon. She's basically never going to get that sort of attention again. She's now had her "big moments" (wedding & first baby) and now it's just....life. I wonder if that is bothering her a bit and she's struggling with the realization that this is her life now and she's not going to get praise and excessive attention for every baby and every thing she does right. For someone very used to external praise and who seems to like and thrive off external praise, I imagine that is not easy.

(To be a little fair to Jill, I do think the "it's all downhill from here, the fun is over" blues are pretty normal. I  know a lot of people who know who have gotten married have talked about the "post wedding depression", and going back to reality after the big exciting event is finished and everyone has moved on to being excited about the next thing and someone else and all they are left with is going back to reality and being expected to write a mountain of thank you cards and people who graduate college, go on an exciting trip to celebrate and then come back and get smacked with job hunting/student loan repayment reality). 

[shiverful]

14 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Isn't Josh's (piece of shit) remark the only "proof" of her being a tattle tale? Or did other brothers and sisters say that too? Because if what I'm remember is correct, it's unfair to call her a tattle-tale for reporting her brother's molestation of her and her sisters. 

Other siblings have hinted about it as well. I remember Jana saying in the "all about Jill"-episode that Jill was great at holding her siblings  "accountable". 

 

[Million Children For Jesus]

1 hour ago, shiverful said:

Other siblings have hinted about it as well. I remember Jana saying in the "all about Jill"-episode that Jill was great at holding her siblings  "accountable". 

 

Sounds like Jill is the scapegoat. Maybe they're bitter that she outed Josh because everyone was comfortable being in denial. Kill the Messenger. Their family was perfect until Jill said it wasn't? Coincidentally, or not, the family scapegoat is frequently a missionary type.

ETA: Is anyone else super creeped out that Josh called Jill a tattle tale, knowing full well she was hiding his huge secrets? He's not in a position to call anyone out on if, or what, they tattle.

[apandaaries]

ETA: Is anyone else super creeped out that Josh called Jill a tattle tale, knowing full well she was hiding his huge secrets? He's not in a position to call anyone out on if, or what, they tattle.

This gets to Josh's basic personality: is anyone ever fully comfortable with him? Does anyone NOT feel creeped out around him? I do, and I have hundreds of miles and a TV screen between us...

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, shiverful said:

Other siblings have hinted about it as well. I remember Jana saying in the "all about Jill"-episode that Jill was great at holding her siblings  "accountable". 

 

Also when Jinger mentioned wanting to living in the city, Jill jumped in to remind her that she would accept whatever plan God had for her, even if it meant not living in a city.

[nst]

11 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

 

I do agree it is 'easier' for Blessa since she has 'the village' while Jilly Muffin is down in El Salvador. but I'll be honest and admit that as soon as Blessed was pregnant, I expected her to be the one basically 'dumping' the baby off at the TTH while she was off getting her nails done. But she really does seem to do a lot of the child rearing work herself (even though she has have help and support from her large family). I'm pleasantly surprised by how much she seems to enjoy her kids tbh.

she doesn't dump the baby or Spud at TTH - she goes there and just sits there and is there.  Endless pictures to prove that. 

so her support is THERE.  She is not Jill in the sense she would never get off the couch in episodes or in pictures. 

I am also pleasantly surprised that she loves them like she does - but call a spade a spade and she at lot of the time at TTH.  

[MiddleAgedLady]

Derick's latest tweet.