Bill Gothard, God, and sexual molestation

[Sister Mozz]

Pardon us if we don't believe you, Bill. The testimony of dozens of abuse cases you didn't report hold more weight than this incident which seems completely and wholly made up.

[grandmadugger]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I know that the situation involved a minor, but in a lawsuit like this, it just seems to me that a police report would be fairly easy to obtain. Wouldn't have G3 looked into something like that too before adding her to the lawsuit? 

One of the victims is listed as having a police report on file but statute of limitations had ran out.

[formergothardite]

It shows a lot about Alfred that when asked that if Gothard had a reasonable cause to believe that a minor is being abused if he should report it it the police, Alfred can't simple say yes. 

He says it depends. So there are some abuse cases that shouldn't be reported? Is it really any wonder the Duggars didn't report Josh when they discovered he was molesting his sisters? 

[formergothardite]

In completely unbelievable stories, Alfred explains why he doesn't trust the police to handle abuse and instead thinks organizations like IBLP can handle and treat abuse situations. He says that there was a child who said something at school, the police investigated and demanded the parents purchase a television for her. The mother went insane. Another person got investigated for spanking and ended up charged with molesting his daughter but it ends up he was just carrying her on his shoulders. 

Now, I don't think the police are perfect, but him knowing two people who had this happen to them is very suspicious. 

[formergothardite]

Alfred had a new post up where he is making up Latin phrases because that is what the Catholic church did? Anyway, it is all about how people try to write confessions for Gothard, he refuses to agree to them, but they get circulated as the truth. He is claiming that this is what happened with the confession that is being used in the lawsuit. 

http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2016/01/21/exhibit-b-tua-culpa/#comment-2048

[DaisyD]

The whole "The phone lines are open. They only have to call." Tells me everything I need to know about these people's understanding of what sexual abuse is like for the victim. Bill is quickly approaching Warren Jeffs levels of justification of atrocious behavior. 

[formergothardite]

Alfred's latest story about Bill. 

Quote

Just a couple of weeks ago his old car (I saw the car, yes it was worth about the $1,000 he paid for it) died on the way to pick someone up at the airport. A young men came to his aid at the side of the road, offered to drive him there and back home. Along the way Bill explained God’s way of salvation and the young man trusted Christ. I saw the glowing, excited letter he wrote to Bill as he is growing as a new believer. Bill has always been first about seeing people saved.

Bill has always made a huge deal about how he drives an old cheap car. He used it to show how he didn't spend money on himself. But in the end it actually costed more to keep his old cars running than it would have to buy a newer car. It wasn't about saving money, it was about Gothard's image. A newer car didn't fit into his image of a man who was so focused on God that he didn't spend any money on himself. Also, when did Bill start driving himself around? Don't believe this story at all. 

He is also still arguing that there is science behind Gothard's claims about mixing fibers. 

[Bretta]

15 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

He is also still arguing that there is science behind Gothard's claims about mixing fibers. 

I can't go on that site. Just can't. I know people exactly like Alfred.

Do you know how people believe the big G. (not God, mind you)? Once you go to the seminars, the big smile and the combover, win you over and the automatic reaction is "he didn't do anything wrong, the critics are just trying to bring him down". I don't know the power he has over people but it's freaking me out. People literally make big life decisions because of those seminars and it is devastating.

 

Sometime I want to go and hand out flyers at the Basic Seminars. Or tell people that the WBs don't in anyway constitute a legit homeschool curriculum.

[refugee]

On 1/8/2016 at 9:34 AM, Howl said:

That was profoundly painful to read, even though I've read quite a bit on Recovering Grace and HA.  Although some ATI diehards will never believe the details of the lawsuit, a light bulb will come of for many, both for how horrible Bill Gothard is and for how the Board and ATI staff closed their eyes to what was going on. 

Really hoping the victims get some restitution, before everything is sold off.  

It is a peculiar form of self-delusion and blindness. I have seen it in ATI acquaintances who still defend Gothard and the parents' choice of ATI for their family, even after some of their kids have walked away, as well as troubling admissions of incest among their children in their families. Somehow because it has been forgiven, it's more sinful to speak of it now, or to point to it as a symptom of greater troubles in the organization. No, Gothard was a man used of God, and he... (fill in the blank, sometimes it's a comparison to David of the bible, sometimes it's about how god used Gothard to save someone out of their former lifestyle and somehow that covers every evil thing he might have done, or the organization might have done).

It makes me physically ill.

What is that quote about "There is none so blind as those who will not see..."

On 1/8/2016 at 9:47 AM, Shoobydoo said:

Okay, but what in holy hell is a "touch of affirmation"???? The very words coming out of this creep's mouth are vomit inducing.

 

(Speaking of which, didn't we used to have a barf smiley or am I imagining that?)

I haven't read the account, only the comments (I'm not strong enough, today), but this reminds me an awful lot (I mean, in an awful way) of what I read in The Witness Wore Red, about Warren Jeffs and the recording of him having "holy sex" with a 12yo in some sort of religious ceremony.

[refugee]

On 1/8/2016 at 3:11 PM, formergothardite said:

Alfred on Discovering Grace is getting schooled by the lawyer. It is great that someone who understands it all is calling him out on his bullshit excuses as to why Bill didn't do anything bad.

http://www.discoveringgrace.com/questions/#comment-1673

Alfred needs to take a long hard look at himself and wonder why he wants to downplay abuse so much. 

And Alfred has decided that it would be better for the victims to just suffer in silence than to sue for money. Alfred is scary crazy in his loyalty to Bill.

 

 

Yes! This! This is what drives me crazy in the attitudes of the former ATI families we know!

(may I just add eleventy-one exclamation points to this comment? please?)

On 1/9/2016 at 6:23 PM, umsami said:

I can't stomach the whole lawsuit.  Too rage-inducing.

I really hope People, Fox, and others pick this up.  I want this broadcasted loud and clear.

I hope those girls bankrupt the fucking IBLP....and Bill Gothard personally.  I hope he dies disgraced and broke and goes to hell.  

See, I really thought that Billy boy played for the other team.  Apparently, I was wrong..or he's bi...or he's like a lot of abusers and will abuse whatever is available.

WTF people would take marriage and child-raising advice from a man who claimed he had never even kissed a girl is beyond me.  I mean, come on.

I keep coming back to what I've read about the Sitler case, that pedophiles are fixated on a specific age group, which is why Sitler may only be "dangerous" to children under the age of 12 (and if I'm remembering right, his preferred victims are infant - to - preschool age). Kids of that age (the one they're fixed on) is what arouses them. It is their sexual preference, and it is unvariable.

So perhaps Gothard is a pedophile, and his preference is a specific age range. It is his sexual preference, and it cannot be changed.

I can't help having this vision of him as Molech and all these trusting families sacrificing their children to him.

[refugee]

On 1/10/2016 at 0:27 PM, Palimpsest said:

A very common MO.  Also used by Jimmy Savile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile  and many of the predator priests in the Catholic Clergy scandals.

Alfred is a dolt and a sycophant.  He's never going to make sense.

Can it be the man puts on a good act, to make people think he's a dolt and sycophant, but is actually evil himself? It doesn't even have to be that he's a sick SOB himself, shilling for Gothard in order to cover crimes of his own. For some reason now I'm thinking of the Germans and Poles who lived outside the WWII death camps, who saw the starving, ragged prisoners marched back and forth to their labors, who saw the trains arrive full and depart empty, who saw and smelled the sickening smoke spewing from the chimneys...

When does willful ignorance become evil itself?

On 1/15/2016 at 8:51 PM, grandmadugger said:

I hope this helps speed up the crashing and burning of IBLP.  They are about as Christian as the rocks in my yard.  NOTHING I've seen is truly Biblical.  Some of it is half way based on stuff from the Bible but it's been twisted to the point it's not even recognizable.  Plus, anyone who preys on the weak and covers it up just pisses me off.

Frankly, I think the rocks in your yard far surpass IBLP's christianity.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, refugee said:

So perhaps Gothard is a pedophile, and his preference is a specific age range. It is his sexual preference, and it cannot be changed.

Some of the victims are young women, so I don't think he is a pedophile. I think he looks for women/girls whose past makes it easier for him to prey on them and makes others less likely to believe them. He tends to pick women/girls who have already been abused. He does seem to have a certain "look" he goes for. 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, refugee said:

It is a peculiar form of self-delusion and blindness. I have seen it in ATI acquaintances who still defend Gothard and the parents' choice of ATI for their family, even after some of their kids have walked away, as well as troubling admissions of incest among their children in their families. Somehow because it has been forgiven, it's more sinful to speak of it now, or to point to it as a symptom of greater troubles in the organization. No, Gothard was a man used of God, and he... (fill in the blank, sometimes it's a comparison to David of the bible, sometimes it's about how god used Gothard to save someone out of their former lifestyle and somehow that covers every evil thing he might have done, or the organization might have done).

It makes me physically ill.

What is that quote about "There is none so blind as those who will not see..."

I haven't read the account, only the comments (I'm not strong enough, today), but this reminds me an awful lot (I mean, in an awful way) of what I read in The Witness Wore Red, about Warren Jeffs and the recording of him having "holy sex" with a 12yo in some sort of religious ceremony.

I read The Witness Wore Red. Warren Jeffs induces rage in me. All the ex FLDS have my admiration. Their books bring me to tears, so much abuse, often at such young ages. They are one reason I am not as sympathetic to fundy adults who stay in their cults. The FLDS have families that have been a part of that mess for generations. Most have no marketable skills or life experience outside the compound. Children and other family may be let behind, and they are shunned. Yet they muster the courage to leave because at some point they realized the suffering they were forced to undergo was wrong. Anna Duggar has non fundy family to help her if she left, and certainly could take her children with her. She certainly wont be subject to blood atonement like an escaped FLDS woman might. The simple truth is that she doesn't have the strength of character to make a break. None of the Duggar kidults do, and I will not be an apologist for them. Or the FLDS who stay in that cult either.

 

[formergothardite]

Alfred is continuing to defend "footsie" And he now claims that he knows a lot of these women were perfectly happy with how Gothard touched them and only changed their mind when the ebil RG corrupted them. 

Quote

Here we go again. What gives you the right to call what went on “footsies”? “Footsies” are by definition sexual . . . and obviously not every interaction between the feet of two individuals is “footsies”. By assigning that name you have rendered your judgment, your editorial. One woman who lived every facet of Bill’s quirks said Bill would occasionally – “a few times” in a decade – tap her feet to get her attention . . . emphatically non-sexual . . . and she observed this toward at least one of Bill’s close male assistants. It is wrong to promote that term unless you know that is what it is.

Tap her feet to get attention? That isn't normal. And where is this woman? Alfred has criticized the some of the accusers for being anonymous, yet we are supposed to take his word on this without knowing who this woman is? 

Quote

See, I know that some of these women in the lawsuit were happy as could be until they were – in the last several years – contacted by “whisperers” and started reading Recovering Grace. Looking at the same things through different eyes freaked them out. Things that are wrong, are simply wrong. If you have to be taught that something is a problem, well, maybe you are dealing as much with the prejudices – yes, bitterness – of others than a real problem. People wonder how “a bunch” of women could all complain about the same things. It is extremely easy – they all read the same website and dealt with the same whisperers. “A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.” (Proverbs 16:28) That is personally judged by the Lord Himself.

Maybe the real problem is that they had been taught that wrong things were right. They had been told not to trust themselves and that it was them who had a problem, it couldn't be Gothard. 

[nolongerIFBx]

I just saw this article posted that the group of individuals suing IBLP has increased to 18 plaintiffs and now includes two males.

http://mobile.wnd.com/2016/02/ministry-sex-abuse-cover-up-becoming-like-bill-cosby/

It was allegedly re-filed yesterday.

As someone who had even a small portion of their "world" destroyed when their revered leader was caught and convicted of rape, I really very much feel for the people who will not even know how to function in a world without IBLP who will have to make decisions that they never had to before and reevaluate who and what they are. That does not in one iota keep me from being eager to see its demise. It has been a venue for abuse and the hiding of abuse for far too long.

I still worry that this will be a very hard case to win and wish the plaintiffs all the best. I sure hope that G3 double and triple checked every "dot and tittle" because G2 and IBLP have years of experience in squeezing out of these jams.

[formergothardite]

Can't wait to see how Alfred responds to this. 

I too worry that they will figure out a way to wiggle out of it. They have spent so long getting really, really good at not having to be held liable for their actions that it is going to be a hard case. According to Alfred(who is hardly reliable) Gothard was able to quickly figure out who the Jane Does are and can prove they are lying. 

But on the plus side G3 is well aware of how these groups work and how they manage to avoid blame, so hopefully he is very prepared. 

[QuiverDance]

You'd think his ability to quickly identify them is a dead give away that their allegations are true.  But what do I know?

[Mela99]

I so hope this sticks. 

Fun story, but I was looking up case law for homeschooling at work and ran into the case Billy-Boy filed

[formergothardite]

More info. 

 

http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/02/18/second-amended-complaint-filed-in-bill-gothard-iblp-sex-abuse-lawsuit-18-victims-in-lawsuit/

 

Quote

Daniel Dorsett – the Second Amended Complaint states that she began working at IBLP in 1993. From 1994 though 1996 he was Bill Gothard’s primary driver. During this time, Mr. Dorsett saw Bill Gothard sexually harass or molest over one hundred fifty young ladies. Gothard told him that if he told anyone about what he saw he would go “straight to hell.” In 1996, while a participant in IBLP’s ALERT program, Mr. Dorsett was illegally locked in a room for admitting that he had committed a sin. During his brief stay in the ALERT program Mr. Dorsett was exposed to unbearable torture when he was required to perform a mock rescue in the freezing cold in his underwear with no shirt or shoes

This is going to throw Alfred for a loop because he has been asking where the men who drove Gothard were and used it as proof that all this was a lie. Now there is a driver who claims to have seen it happen. 

Quote

JOHN DOE I – the Second Amended Complaint states that he was initially a volunteer and was later employed by the Indianapolis Training Center (“ITC”) from 1993 through 1994 and later from 1996 trough 1997. While he will still a minor at the age of seventeen in 1994, JOHN DOE I was sexually molested by an IBLP employee by the name of William Tollett. JOHN DOE I immediately reported the molestation to his father and ITC staff. Although Tollett resigned from the ITC the next day, the molestation was never reported to state child welfare officials or law enforcement. 

 

[QuiverDance]

So gross.  Seriously.  I'm so sad for these kids.

[formergothardite]

Just started reading the whole thing and Discovering Grace and Alfred are mentioned as a way that Gothard attacks his victims. It brings up that Gothard wants to sit down and talk with all the victims and their husbands

ETA: The training centers are compared to labor camps where minors were forced to work long hours while being cut off from any outside interaction. From the people I know who spent a lot of time at the traning centers, this is true. 

[halcionne]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-dupage-ministry-lawsuit-update-met-20160218-story.html

Quote

Gothard, 81, of LaGrange, has not been charged with any wrongdoing. His attorney, Glenn Gaffney, said he is confident the lawsuit will fail. He is seeking to disqualify Gibbs, alleging he violated rules of professional conduct while obtaining an affidavit from Gothard last year under false pretenses.

"My client does not believe he should need to engage the legal process in this situation but he has no choice but to defend himself," Gaffney said, "and in defending himself he will have to take the offensive as to the false and defamatory statements made against him."

What a piece of shit.

[formergothardite]

So in December Gothard sent a letter to G3 threatening to damage his clients and making a death threat using Bible verses. He also claimed all the people who spoke up against Gothard.

Doug Phillips is quoted in the lawsuit and called Gothard's protege. 

ETA: I got to the part that describes where Gibbs Jr and Robert Barth(attorney for IBLP) interviews one of the plaintiffs(who was raped at 11, sent to Gothard for counseling and then molested by him) for the sham investigation. She would list illegal activity that took place and Robert would change her answers, refusing to accept any information that showed Gothard behaved in an illegal way. She sent a detailed letter to the board and they responded that she needed to go meet with Gothard. These men are sick. 

[foreign fundie]

 So sorry to hear there is more. You expect it but hearing abouy new cases remains disturbing. I hope none of the girls/boys that were hurt will fall for the 'talk to Gothard' or his minions manipulation. 

If any of you (known or unknown) victims are reading here, they have no right to contact you. Don't talk to them except through a lawer. They don't want your healing, only protect themselves. Again YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TALK TO THEM EVER AGAIN. Also since they have proven to disregard scripture, they have lost their right to quote any bible verse to defend themselves or attack you. 

 

 

[Mrs Ms]

7 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

 So sorry to hear there is more. You expect it but hearing abouy new cases remains disturbing. I hope none of the girls/boys that were hurt will fall for the 'talk to Gothard' or his minions manipulation. 

If any of you (known or unknown) victims are reading here, they have no right to contact you. Don't talk to them except through a lawer. They don't want your healing, only protect themselves. Again YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TALK TO THEM EVER AGAIN. Also since they have proven to disregard scripture, they have lost their right to quote any bible verse to defend themselves or attack you. 

 

 

Unless you are wired and miked up and tape all the shit that they WILL accuse you of? (If that would hurt the lawsuit, then don't - just what I would probably want to do)