Bill Gothard, God, and sexual molestation

[grandmadugger]

25 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Yeah.  To clarify:  Gibbs, Jr. was retained by IBLP to do the sham investigation.   I believe he was called an "independent investigator" for that.  Haha. IBLP must have other representation too, but Gibbs, Jr. is still involved with that side.

However, my question for our genuine legal eagles is: As the amended complaint now names Gothard as a defendant, and Gothard has said IBLP is handling the whole thing wrong, does he need separate representation from IBLP?  I'd say he would be wise to get it but don't know whether he actually needs it?

I think he would have to have separate legal counsel.  Not only has he stated that IBLP isn't handling the suit correctly, he is technically not their employee anymore either.  Since he was removed from the organization his interests now differ from the organizations interests.   

[formergothardite]

Since he gave a statement that is being used against the BoD, I don't imagine that they will help him out too much. 

[QuiverDance]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

According to Alfred Gibbs III was representing Gothard and tricked him into signing an affidavit that shows that Gibbs Jr had close ties to IBLP. This is being used to help show that the investigation IBLP did was a sham. Gothard is now asking that the affidavit be removed because he wouldn't have said all that stuff if he knew it would be used against him. 

Someone points this out about the claim:

 

Alfred responds that Bill has written proof that Gibbs was his lawyer.

I think the last part is most likely the closest to what really happened.

Alfred says that Gothard never would have said the things he said if he didn't think Gibbs III was representing him.

C is most likely the answer.

Alfred tells people to stay tuned because he is bringing the proof that Gothard didn't lie. It is a news article, the only problem is that it doesn't say that Gibbs III was representing Gothard, Alfred is apparently so caught up in believing Gothard, no matter what, that he didn't realize that. Alfred still doesn't back down despite the fact that the news article isn't proof of anything. 

If Alfred really wants to help Gothard, he should get him a lawyer. Discovering Grace is an awesome example of how fucked up Bill and his followers are. I wonder what it would take for Alfred to accept that Gothard lied? Would any amount of evidence work? I'm beginning to doubt it. 

Good analysis.  I agree that C is the most likely scenario.  At any rate, there is no way that Gibbs III, if he is any kind of decent lawyer, did not clear himself with the Board of Professional Responsibility before filing the lawsuit and attaching that affidavit.  

[NeverAFundie]

It is not uncommon in the corporate world for companies to be required to continue to provide legal counsel to top executives even after the executives leave.  It's typically written into employment and/or severance agreements.  Who knows if Gothard has anything like that, but it's certainly possible.  Those kinds of terms vary--companies often write in an "out" if the executive needs legal counsel because of his or her own illegal behavior. Regardless of whether IBLP will (or is required to) provide Gothard with counsel, he WILL need his own counsel.  It is 100% correct that his interests are not 100% aligned with IBLP's, and IBLP's attorneys would necessarily have a conflict of interest representing Gothard as well.  A judge would never allow it.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, grandmadugger said:

I think he would have to have separate legal counsel.  Not only has he stated that IBLP isn't handling the suit correctly, he is technically not their employee anymore either.  Since he was removed from the organization his interests now differ from the organizations interests.   

Good point.

[formergothardite]

Alfred says he and others told Gothard that it was a bad idea to meet with Gibbs III but Gothard insisted on doing it anyway. Gothard has spent so long manipulating people that I don't think he can accept that he isn't able to do that anymore. It sounds like he has known Gibbs III for a long time and he probably thought that he could use him to get control of IBLP again, but instead Gibbs used Gothard. This isn't the 80's anymore and he isn't going to be able to come back. Gothard is done for. His legacy will not be a man who built an empire, it will be a creepy old man who liked to play footsie with teen girls. 

Quote

I’ve also tried to point out that Bill has a knack for coming up with excuses, whether they make sense or not. He also has a knack for dodging issues, which he has taught you well. I’ve also mentioned some tools that he appears to use – redefining words, claiming memory or intentionality factors, and such. His greatest knack might be that he gets you to believe him every time.

If Alfred had a cell in his brain he could see that it isn't normal for someone to have to constantly come up with elaborate excuses for their behavior or to have to redefine words or say that everyone just misunderstands their actions/words. The problem isn't everyone else, the problem is Gothard. 

[QuiverDance]

Hahaha.  Gothard sounds exactly like my ex husband.  

[Whoosh]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think Gothard could rely on God while an actual legal professional defends IBLP.  I thin they could actually say "we are defending YOU Bill" and somewhat get away with it.  Never agree to co-council as a defendant unless YOU are paying...

[Palimpsest]

@formergothardite How does Alfred fit into the big picture?  I only know him as the idiot commenter on RG and the mod on Discovering Grace.  Insiders seem to know him well - but in your opinion is/was he a big honcho at IBLP or ATI or just some minor player/convert leghumping Gothard to get attention.

[formergothardite]

I don't really know how he fits into. He raised his children in ATI. He has been around even before RG days claiming to debunk rumors about Gothard. He says he seeks the truth, but as we can see in DG, he only seeks to find excuses for how Gothard behaved. I think he was probably a minor player before all this, but his absolute loyalty to Gothard has put him in a higher position. Not many people would be willing to defend an old man playing footsie with teens and only wanting to be around pretty teen girls.  He is Gothard's faithful servant who will be there till the end defending him no matter what. Gothard should have stuck  him on the board because it is clear the BoD is loyal to IBLP money, not Gothard. 

[Palimpsest]

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't really know how he fits into. He raised his children in ATI. He has been around even before RG days claiming to debunk rumors about Gothard. He says he seeks the truth, but as we can see in DG, he only seeks to find excuses for how Gothard behaved. I think he was probably a minor player before all this, but his absolute loyalty to Gothard has put him in a higher position. Not many people would be willing to defend an old man playing footsie with teens and only wanting to be around pretty teen girls.  He is Gothard's faithful servant who will be there till the end defending him no matter what. Gothard should have stuck  him on the board because it is clear the BoD is loyal to IBLP money, not Gothard. 

Thanks.  Alfred is pathetic, really.

Speaking of the board, I still wonder why former chair Billy Boring ran away so fast.  Guilt or fear?  Or both.

[JHeathen]

OMG the description of what he did to Rachel Lees sounds exactly like the hand sex Joshley and Anna had constantly on camera while engaged.  

I won't cut and paste it here to avoid triggering anyone, but bottom of page 70 if you care to look.  https://homeschoolersanonymous.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/iblpamendedcomplaintrev-c010616.pdf

[JHeathen]

OM I finally got to the end and ...there are no words for my anger.

[grandmadugger]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Thanks.  Alfred is pathetic, really.

Speaking of the board, I still wonder why former chair Billy Boring ran away so fast.  Guilt or fear?  Or both.

That's my one issue with the lawsuit.  The former BoD members are walking away scott free.

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Thanks.  Alfred is pathetic, really.

Speaking of the board, I still wonder why former chair Billy Boring ran away so fast.  Guilt or fear?  Or both.

Didn't another board member jump ship very fast? I'm thinking fear. I wish they could hold all the past BoDs liable, but I don't think that legally they can. 

I'm trying to figure out what Alfred does for money because he seriously spends an unbelievable amount of time asking Gothard for "clarification" about various issues. One of the other stories going on over there involves a lady named Ruth who(I think) was sent up to the North Woods by Gothard to be with his brother. She has died but her husband goes around defending her. Gothard is now claiming Ruth begged and pleaded to be sent there and he told her no but she insisted.  Her husband, Larne, said that Ruth's mother remember it differently and that Ruth was basically forced to go. Alfred wants Larne to call up Ruth's mother to ask more questions because Gothard says that Ruth's mother can confirm his story. But Ruth's mother has already said that Gothard's story isn't true, Alfred just can't accept it. 

 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Didn't another board member jump ship very fast? I'm thinking fear. I wish they could hold all the past BoDs liable, but I don't think that legally they can. 

I'm trying to figure out what Alfred does for money because he seriously spends an unbelievable amount of time asking Gothard for "clarification" about various issues. One of the other stories going on over there involves a lady named Ruth who(I think) was sent up to the North Woods by Gothard to be with his brother. She has died but her husband goes around defending her. Gothard is now claiming Ruth begged and pleaded to be sent there and he told her no but she insisted.  Her husband, Larne, said that Ruth's mother remember it differently and that Ruth was basically forced to go. Alfred wants Larne to call up Ruth's mother to ask more questions because Gothard says that Ruth's mother can confirm his story. But Ruth's mother has already said that Gothard's story isn't true, Alfred just can't accept it. 

 

I wish I'd kept better track of the board but it seemed stable for years.  I think Gil was put on it in 2012 or 2013 but don't know who he replaced.

Yes, when the story broke in early 2014, 2 BOD members left fast:  The Chair, Billy Boring, MD and Bernie Reese.  Reese is a superannuated lawyer and retired law professor.  He's probably in his 80s.  He called RG and asked many pointed questions, per RG.  Then when the BOD put out it's official statement about Gothard's resignation -- poof!  Boring and Reese are gone and Thomas Paine, MD is Chair.  It would be really interesting to find out why they left.  I doubt we will ever know unless they are called as witnesses in the lawsuit.

Alfred wants to stick his fingers into his ears and chant la-la-la.  He's just digging himself holes and really is not helping Gothard.  He's making himself look stupid and crass.

I remember Ruth's story being published posthumously and it is very sad.  Why pester her mother when she has already made her statement contradicting Gothard?

[formergothardite]

As fast as those two left I suspect that there must be evidence that the BoD knew about all this abuse. According to the lawsuit two more board members have left, but they didn't leave fast enough since they are still in the lawsuit. John Stancil and Anthony Burris resigned over disagreements with the rest of the board. 

[Gimme a Free RV]

13 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Hahaha.  Gothard sounds exactly like my ex husband.  

Wait, what?  We were married to the same man, @QuiverDance?

[Palimpsest]

37 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

As fast as those two left I suspect that there must be evidence that the BoD knew about all this abuse. According to the lawsuit two more board members have left, but they didn't leave fast enough since they are still in the lawsuit. John Stancil and Anthony Burris resigned over disagreements with the rest of the board. 

John Stancil made a leghumping comment about Gothard when he resigned.  I'll see if I can find it.  Anthony Burrus was steeped in IBPL from a very early age and was the token minority member I think.  He's quite elderly too.

The board as a whole may not have known a whole lot until RG broke the story.  IIRC, there about 3 people who looked young and involved (Boring, Paine and Bates) and the rest looked like a bunch of rubber stamping yes-men - aging tokens and a moneybag or two.  I should refresh my memory. 

Annual board meetings were probably a get-together to tell Billy what a clever boy he was followed by a good dinner before the shit hit the fan.  They deserve to be hauled over the coals.

[formergothardite]

I actually do believe that the BoD knew a lot because people have been complaining to the board for a long time. They even did some hand-slappy things like suggest Bill not be alone with teen girls because of complaints but did nothing when he refused. 

Alfred has up a bizarre post about math and how it proves the allegations are not true. He says that Bill touching teen girls in a weird way isn't a crime and isn't a big deal. Yes, it fucking is Alfred! 

He doesn't understand why people will take the word of these women over the word of a man who has 50 years of ministry. He also says that one of the claims has to be false because she went to the police and no charges were filed. As  it is pointed out to him, the reason no charges were filed was because the SOL had passed. Alfred still claims that it isn't a big deal or true because the police said that if the woman could have pressed charges it would have only been misdemeanor battery, not sexual harassment. Alfred is starting to come unwound. He is ranting that these women are going to be judged by God for spinning encouraging pats into sexual abuse. He says that Gothard is being abused by these women. 

[Tdoc72]

4 new plaintiffs joined the case, bringing the total to 14.

 

http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/01/13/bill-gothard-iblp-sex-abuse-lawsuit-update/

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

4 new plaintiffs joined the case, bringing the total to 14.

 

http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/01/13/bill-gothard-iblp-sex-abuse-lawsuit-update/

A minimum of 14.  They can add new plaintiffs to the lawsuit until February 17.  If any more victims want to file after that they will have to start a new lawsuit.

Gothard and IBLP do have separate representation.

[Sundaymorning]

3 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

A minimum of 14.  They can add new plaintiffs to the lawsuit until February 17.  If any more victims want to file after that they will have to start a new lawsuit.

Gothard and IBLP do have separate representation.

Any chance that they will turn against each other in order to save their own ass?

Because if they would air dirty laundry at the trial, the world would hopefully finally see what kind of a horrible and dangerous cult they really are.

[formergothardite]

IBLP is not willing to meet with them. I'm not surprised. What is the BoD going to say to these victims? They would never apologize or admit they were wrong. 

[Palimpsest]

I predict the board will throw Gothard under the bus now push has come to shove.

Quote

I actually do believe that the BoD knew a lot because people have been complaining to the board for a long time. They even did some hand-slappy things like suggest Bill not be alone with teen girls because of complaints but did nothing when he refused. 

@formergothardite do you know whether people were complaining directly to individual board members or just writing letters to the board as a whole.  Some letters to the board could be shuffled into hiding by subordinates  IYKWIM.  I was wondering about the levels of deniability that were set up at IBLP.  (I read the whole of Cardinal Bernard Law's deposition in the early 2000s for my sins.  The weaseling around about "but I never saw that letter 'cos it went to that other office" was unbelievable.)

If individual board members were approached personally with complaints and only hand slapped BG I sincerely hope their feet are held to the fire.