Bill Gothard, God, and sexual molestation

[formergothardite]

44 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Very well said.  Welcome, new member!

I finally struggled through the Questions section on Discovering Grace, where Alfred is practically turning summersaults and gibbering as he tries to explain away the lies and defend Bill Gothard.

I found myself actually pitying Alfred.  Such mindless devotion to Gothard is distressing to see.

I find myself pitying Alfred too. It is clear that his world is crashing down around him and he is desperately trying to keep it together. It seems like his entire sense of self is wrapped up in Gothard and Gothard's teachings. He cannot see how ridiculous he looks trying to justify these actions and teachings. 

[apple1]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

God only knows about Gibbs III's motives.  After working for CLA for years defending institutions, churches, and individuals who were perpetrating abuse, he supposedly had a huge revelation a few years ago.  He split from Gibbs, Jr. and CLA, set up his own firm, and now claims to devote himself to working for victims.

Either he has had a genuine change of heart about working for victims or he has decided that representing plaintiffs is where the money and glory is these days.  He is representing Lourdes Torres against Doug Phillips and Vision Forum too.

@apple1 knows Gibbs III's past record better than I do, but he came to fame with the Terri Schiavo case.  He was on the "wrong" side in the Tina Anderson rape case, and I believe still represents the defendants in the Old Schoolhouse Cover-Up.  He may have taken that last case before he decided to devote himself to helping victims.

He's apparently a skilled attorney but his experience seems more in the area of defense than prosecution.  Messing up these high profile lawsuits will not reflect well on him. 

I do wonder whether Gibbs III and Gibbs, Jn. are on speaking terms these days.  Perhaps they are just fine and think it is part of the job.  On the other hand, claiming that your father was involved in a corrupt and biased investigation is a very big deal.

Ditto on this summary. I do have the impression (but cannot verify it) that Gibbs Jr and Gibbs III are estranged. While I do not rejoice in the pain that many people feel when there is estrangement from immediate family members, in this instance I think that there has maybe been some gradual ongoing enlightenment in the case of III that may have contributed to the apparent split - and that would be a good thing. (Or maybe I am only seeing what I want to see).

If indeed III is for real, at this point, it might actually be a very good thing. The fact that he grew up with his father involved in IBLP/ATI would mean that he understands the mess as only an insider could understand it -- in which case he may be very dangerous to ATI/IBLP.

Disclaimer: This entire post is just my thoughts, and I have no proof one way or the other.

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I find myself pitying Alfred too. It is clear that his world is crashing down around him and he is desperately trying to keep it together. It seems like his entire sense of self is wrapped up in Gothard and Gothard's teachings. He cannot see how ridiculous he looks trying to justify these actions and teachings. 

I think Alfred has truly pathological mental issues - and unfortunately has chosen to play them all out on the internet. For that, I also pity him.

[Palimpsest]

@apple1

Re. Gibbs III changing his viewpoint, there is a odd thing I remember about the Tina Anderson case.  GIII was representing the pastor who did the cover-up of the rape, Chuck Phelps, not the rapist.  Tina's supporters were all wearing teal(?) to show solidarity with her.  Gibbs III at one point tried to sit next to or with the supporters (they had him ordered to move).  He also had his son come to court wearing a teal tie and sit with the supporters.

Tina's supporters were totally creeped out by all this because Gibbs was representing the enemy and they thought it intimidation and manipulation.  But perhaps Gibbs III was really trying to show support for Tina back in 2011?

That was a horrific case.

[DaisyD]

I just don't see the people from this belief system doing something like representing victims in an effort to sabotage them. There are some "faiths" that I could (scientology comes to mind). I think Gothardites would refuse to acknowledge them as victims even as subterfuge. Maybe I'm naive. 

[formergothardite]

The links Alfred is using to "prove" that Gothard isn't making up his "science" are just insane. 

[Palimpsest]

26 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

The links Alfred is using to "prove" that Gothard isn't making up his "science" are just insane. 

Where is that?

[formergothardite]

49 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Where is that?

Around this area in the comment section. 

http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2015/12/27/challenge-watch-session-1-of-the-basic-seminar/#comment-1843

[Palimpsest]

28 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Around this area in the comment section. 

http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2015/12/27/challenge-watch-session-1-of-the-basic-seminar/#comment-1843

Oh, blimey.  He is really desperate!

I have a fringed linen dresser scarf packed away somewhere.  I'll have to find it and drape it round my neck.  Then if I drench myself in essential oils, fast, weep, and pray for a couple of days - why I'll be 21 again.  A true miracle!

[older than allosaurs]

6 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Oh, blimey.  He is really desperate!

I have a fringed linen dresser scarf packed away somewhere.  I'll have to find it and drape it round my neck.  Then if I drench myself in essential oils, fast, weep, and pray for a couple of days - why I'll be 21 again.  A true miracle!

Can I sign up for a different miracle with the same technique? I wouldn't be 21 again for anything.

Anyway, during an insomniac half hour last night I read through one of the Discovering Grace comment threads, and I also feel bad for Alfred. He keeps jumping from one burning haystack to the next. Bill's teachings are such a blessing, and the hand-picked "young ladies" who got his personal attention were extra blessed. Isn't it odd that so many of these ones who got that full dose of his wonderfulness are now delusional liars who are conspiring to destroy him? It's hard to explain, but Alfred sure is trying.

He's in the same trouble as young earth creationists trying to be scientific. He can't build a case from evidence because he has to look for ways to support his chosen text, "The Book of Bill."  I'm betting no one ever looked around at the earth and stars and spontaneously said, "It's just so obvious that someone made this all in 6 days and then took a nice nap."  If you've chosen to believe that, your task is to explain away competing evidence rather than seek the truth.

 

[apple1]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

@apple1

Re. Gibbs III changing his viewpoint, there is a odd thing I remember about the Tina Anderson case.  GIII was representing the pastor who did the cover-up of the rape, Chuck Phelps, not the rapist.  Tina's supporters were all wearing teal(?) to show solidarity with her.  Gibbs III at one point tried to sit next to or with the supporters (they had him ordered to move).  He also had his son come to court wearing a teal tie and sit with the supporters.

Tina's supporters were totally creeped out by all this because Gibbs was representing the enemy and they thought it intimidation and manipulation.  But perhaps Gibbs III was really trying to show support for Tina back in 2011?

That was a horrific case.

I had not thought of this, with regard to the Anderson case. Good thought.

There is some part of me that still wants to look for the good in people... hope I am not being overly naïve.

[formergothardite]

According to the comments on Recovering Grace Gothard just recently wrote a booklet about beautiful women. Apparently Gothard claims to be an expert on the problems pretty women face. One of the problems that pretty women face(according to Gothard) is that men focus on their outward appearance. Isn't that exactly what Gothard did? And what Alfred explained away as Gothard needing to only focus on pretty teen girls? 

[diplomat]

9 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Apparently Gothard claims to be an expert on the problems pretty women face. 

Seems to me that Gothard has been claiming to be an expert on pretty much everything for a long time; he said he discovered God's "seven basic and non-optional life principles" and promised that he was bringing the world "a new approach to life." What's appalling is that thousands of Christians who thought they were following God ended up following Gothard and his legalistic formulas instead. Worse, some of those people subjected their children to it, too.

My parents, for example, first attended a Gothard seminar in the late 1960s, before it even became the Basic Seminar. Over time, they became very involved in the Basic and Advanced Seminars (attending every year, inviting everyone they met to attend the seminar, working on local committees), and they enrolled our family in ATI (Gothard's homeschooling program) when I was 7 years old. In short, I grew up in an environment where Gothard's insidious teachings were considered normal. Even now, more than fifteen years after moving away from home and explicitly renouncing many of the ideas with which I was raised, I still keep discovering more ways in which Gothard distorted my worldview and made my childhood unnecessarily difficult. (Of course, it could have been worse; I count myself fortunate that I was never physically abused by my parents nor sexually assaulted by Gothard.)

[formergothardite]

According to Alfred Gothard is now claiming he totally didn't write the confession that is being used in the lawsuit, that someone else wrote it, gave it to a person from RG, who gave it to Gibbs III. Alfred says that Gibbs III is slandering Gothard by submitting these false documents. 

Gothard still hasn't read the whole lawsuit, he is just focusing on the confession and the affidavit that he claims was written when Gibbs lied and said he was Gothard's lawyer. Alfred is still trying to use the World Magazine article as proof that Gibbs was representing Gothard. It isn't, though.

This is what the article states:

Quote

Gothard is not only defending himself but also going on the offensive against the IBLP board. He said he is “concerned” the ministry is selling some of the ministry’s assets, mostly real estate valued between $80 million and $200 million. To prevent the sale of those assets, donors to the ministry have engaged attorney David Gibbs III (the son of the David Gibbs Jr. who led the internal investigation into Gothard’s behavior) to request mediation.

Nothing in that paragraph says that Gibbs III is representing Gothard, but Gothard has said it is proof and that is all that matters to Alfred. 

[Palimpsest]

So Alfred is now saying that Gothard is one of the mystery donors who engage GIII to file the injunction against selling the real estate? 

What?

Alfred is turning summersaults again. 

[formergothardite]

Alfred is getting desperate. He is sitting down with Gothard today to go over the entire lawsuit. Gothard seems pissed that his words are being used against him. I have a really hard time believing Gibbs III is such a bad lawyer that he would do the things Gothard is accusing him of doing. 

[Palimpsest]

This may have been posted before, but for clarification about what Gothard is claiming Gibbs III did - the moderator on Discovering Grace - Alfred - made this comment on January 11. My bolding.

Quote

Haha! I am well aware that I am dealing with a “respected attorney”. I also am very aware of the many conversations I had with Bill. I know for a fact that Gibbs came to see him, made him many promises in exchange for his cooperation. I am frankly not sure who the donors are that interacted with Gibbs prior to this action. They are not named in the suit, are they? Methinks this was Gibbs, looking for place to make a splash, who came to pull this together. Do you think Gibbs was interested in the donors or Bill for any purpose other than to sue on behalf of the women? I don’t think so. But Bill told a far different tale of what he was doing, including the oft repeated comment that Gibbs promised him the suit would be dropped should the Board back off, reinstate Bill. I personally expressed my concern that that did not seem right, but Bill was confident. He told me he could be trusted because he was the attorney of his dear friend. Again, family Gibbs and Gothard and IBLP go back a long way.

So we shall see. Bill has documents that I am to examine. I intend to get a full statement from him. But I stick with my version of the story.

I think it is highly unlikely and frankly makes no sense whatsoever, quite aside from the fact that Gibbs III could be disbarred if he misrepresented his purpose for the visit like that.

Why the hell would the suit be dropped if Gothard were reinstated?  Gothard was the perpetrator and the BOD is being sued for attempting a cover-up.

GIII was already known to be representing the Plaintiffs.  Why the hell would Gothard talk to the Plaintiffs attorney just because he knew him and he'd represented a dear friend. 

Gothard has lost his marbles altogether if this is the story he is trying to sell Alfred.  Alfred has lost his marbles if he believes it.

[formergothardite]

I would like to see what documents Gothard has because if they are anything like the news article then they are worthless. If Alfred could step back, he could see that Gothard's story makes no sense. Gibbs III is too good of an attorney to do anything like that. This seems to have been what Gothard imagine would happen, that he would get the women on his side, together they would take on the BoD, and he would come out victorious with all the women admitting that it was all just a misunderstanding. He got so caught up in his fantasy that he can't accept reality. 

I'm wondering what sort of lawyer Gothard has or if it is just Alfred giving him advice. 

Alfred has also managed to figure out who Jane Doe II is and of course has gone for the personal attacks claiming she is troubled so she can't be taken seriously. There is a reason many of the women want to remain anonymous, it is because they know that people like Alfred will try to tear them to shreds. When these stories first came out one of the people in IBLP(perhaps he is/was on the board, I can't remember his name) discovered that one of the women accusing Gothard is no longer a Christian and he went on a rampage against her on FB. 

[apple1]

22 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Gothard has lost his marbles altogether if this is the story he is trying to sell Alfred.  Alfred has lost his marbles if he believes it.

BINGO (in both cases; I really believe that both of them have cognitive issues of some kind).

[Palimpsest]

21 minutes ago, apple1 said:

BINGO (in both cases; I really believe that both of them have cognitive issues of some kind).

It is certainly beginning to look that way.

I can see that Gibbs III could have told Gothard a full admission from him might go a long way towards persuading the plaintiffs to drop the suit.  That is legal negotiation and not misrepresenting anything.  It's the idea that GIII promised to help put Gothard back at IBLP that is bonkers.  If Gothard really thought that, he was delusional.

 

 

[apple1]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

It is certainly beginning to look that way.

I can see that Gibbs III could have told Gothard a full admission from him might go a long way towards persuading the plaintiffs to drop the suit.  That is legal negotiation and not misrepresenting anything.  It's the idea that GIII promised to help put Gothard back at IBLP that is bonkers.  If Gothard really thought that, he was delusional.

 

 

Exactly. Whatever GIII's faults (and I am a skeptic to some degree) - I am fairly convinced he is a competent attorney who does not wish to lose his license to practice law. No way would he have done what Alfred and/or Gothard is saying.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, apple1 said:

Exactly. Whatever GIII's faults (and I am a skeptic to some degree) - I am fairly convinced he is a competent attorney who does not wish to lose his license to practice law. No way would he have done what Alfred and/or Gothard is saying.

Yes.  I too want to be optimistic about GIII.  I really hope he represents the plaintiffs here and Lourdes well.  He seems to be a competent attorney. 

One thing I know.  I would never, ever, have a one-on-one conversation with Bill Gothard.  I'd always bring trusted witnesses along.  The man lies like a rug.

[gustava]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I know for a fact that Gibbs came to see him, made him many promises in exchange for his cooperation.

Is Alfred clear on which Gibbs?  Jr or III??

[Palimpsest]

3 minutes ago, gustava said:

Is Alfred clear on which Gibbs?  Jr or III??

Alfred is very clear that it was Gibbs III.

[formergothardite]

Gothard lies and lies and then lies some more. At this point I doubt he even knows what the truth is anymore. I think he has lied to himself for so long that he believes the things he says. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, apple1 said:

Exactly. Whatever GIII's faults (and I am a skeptic to some degree) - I am fairly convinced he is a competent attorney who does not wish to lose his license to practice law. No way would he have done what Alfred and/or Gothard is saying.

Unless G3 has a professional death wish, there is NO way that he engaged in the convoluted, double-representations described by Alfred. As Palimpsest said above, if GIII actually did that, he'd be disbarred ASAP and would probably not be able to practice law again in any US jurisdiction. 

ETA: IANAL but would love for a qualified attorney to weigh in here!