Jump to content
IGNORED

Bill Gothard, God, and sexual molestation


Et Moi

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Part me says they'll simply graft on to some other parasitic "ministry" but another part of me thinks that each one of them might try to start their own "ministries" to fill the void, thus allowing them to be the head honcho, rather than just another office drone. However, the fact that IBLP is losing money and followers so rapidly suggests that fewer people are interested in what IBLP is selling. Maybe the Duggars thought their "ministry" would entice people to ATI and IBLP, but they were unsuccessful even before the Joshgates. Perhaps this is why so much emphasis is on eschewing birth control, because if you can't attract followers, you have to make your own.

Yes, I forget what the actual numbers were, but a few years ago IBLP's profits went down significantly in a very short span of time. No scandal needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 467
  • Created
  • Last Reply
2 minutes ago, Sundaymorning said:

How well do such ministries in the US "work"? Would they make enough to provide for their families?

Another option for them would be to become a bit more fundie-lite and try to join one of the many conservative evangelical organisations or ministries, unless of course, the image of IBLP is so bad that even they don't want to have anything to do with former employees.

I think opening a "ministry" like IBLP is relatively easy, especially considering that I doubt you have to pay taxes. It's my understanding that there are tighter rules in many European for what constitutes a "legitimate religious group," but in the US, all you have to do is declare yourself to be one. The question of whether these families make enough to live on is something I don't know, but when you insist on having a quiverfull, regardless of your finances, you're going to have trouble providing for them, unless you have a job that pays in the six figures, which I doubt an IBLP desk job can provide. These sorts of "total lifestyle" ministries seem to be floundering these days, from VF's dramatic implosion to IBLP's slow decline. Even many conservative Christians don't want to have eleventy kids they can't afford and not be allowed to have friends, hobbies, or the ability to consume secular media. At some point, the families that support IBLP and ATI are going to have to navigate life without it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone at IBLP/ATI should be worried about their jobs, even before this Evangelical seal of approval was taken away.  They started selling off property several years ago, and it didn't stanch the flood of red ink. Properties in Dallas and Nashville have already been sold or been put on the market. [For example,  the Ambassador Hotel in Dallas: http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2015/03/dallas-landmark-ambassador-hotel-sells-for-redevelopment.html/   and the former Nashville Memorial Hospital: http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18796412/612-Due-West-Madison-TN/]

That is why the whole Oak Brook, Illinois Headquarters is on the market now, and everyone is relocating to Big Sandy, TX.

I'm guessing that once the Oak Brook properties are sold, the Gothard property empire will be at least 50% smaller that it was at its height.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Part me says they'll simply graft on to some other parasitic "ministry" but another part of me thinks that each one of them might try to start their own "ministries" to fill the void, thus allowing them to be the head honcho, rather than just another office drone. However, the fact that IBLP is losing money and followers so rapidly suggests that fewer people are interested in what IBLP is selling. Maybe the Duggars thought their "ministry" would entice people to ATI and IBLP, but they were unsuccessful even before the Joshgates. Perhaps this is why so much emphasis is on eschewing birth control, because if you can't attract followers, you have to make your own.

My personal prediction: Those jobs will eventually evaporate, and those guys will suddenly become the (rolling eyes) latest and greatest car salesmen (not rolling eyes on the car sales).

I have seen this more than a few times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, apple1 said:

My personal prediction: Those jobs will eventually evaporate, and those guys will suddenly become the (rolling eyes) latest and greatest car salesmen (not rolling eyes on the car sales).

I have seen this more than a few times.

Yep, like Bradrick! going into real estate.  He started out at the bottom of the barrel, his listings all just disaster homes mostly in a military town, but hopefully he's rising in the ranks.  He's got a lot of mouths to feed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What are their chances of becoming a pastor in some independent, fundie Baptist church? They don't seem to require real theology studies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sundaymorning said:

What are their chances of becoming a pastor in some independent, fundie Baptist church? They don't seem to require real theology studies.

No, but they have to compete with a lot of other would-be pastors (looking at you Ben Seewald).  When you lower the employment bar, you increase the competition. I'm from part of southern Appalachia that is overflowing with Baptist churches of every flavor. My semi-rural county has OVER A HUNDRED Baptist congregations.  What's the catch? Dozens of the smaller Baptist congregations aren't big enough to pay a fulltime minister.  So, you have pastors who are farmers/mechanics/car salesmen/tree trimmers on the side.  Think of Gil Bates.

Most of the big churches who can pay a full time salary--have ministers who DID get some of theology degree. And have better communication skills than Ben, and more charisma than Brandon.

[and most of these pastors aren't Quiverfull, so they don't have a whole passel of kids to feed & clothe--just a handful at max]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noticed that the huge annual IBLP conference is no longer be in held in Nashville anymore.... That was the one the Bates always attended along with Big Sandy. They have a new location in Michigan for the IBLP homeschool conference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, apple1 said:

My personal prediction: Those jobs will eventually evaporate, and those guys will suddenly become the (rolling eyes) latest and greatest car salesmen (not rolling eyes on the car sales).

I have seen this more than a few times.

Yes.  My prediction is that, in spite of all this current scandal, IBLP will end not with a bang but a whimper.  The true believers will hang on until the bitter end when the cash runs out.  Most people will drift away and according to their individual mind sets, either join another like-minded para-church, or perhaps go more mainstream because of their burnt fingers.

And then other charismatic cult-like Fundamentalist assholes will rise to fill the gaps left by VF and IBLP.  We are already seeing Scott Brown happily scooping up as many VF followers as he can.

It is always a game of whack-a-mole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, HereticHick said:

No, but they have to compete with a lot of other would-be pastors (looking at you Ben Seewald).  When you lower the employment bar, you increase the competition. I'm from part of southern Appalachia that is overflowing with Baptist churches of every flavor. My semi-rural county has OVER A HUNDRED Baptist congregations.  What's the catch? Dozens of the smaller Baptist congregations aren't big enough to pay a fulltime minister.  So, you have pastors who are farmers/mechanics/car salesmen/tree trimmers on the side.  Think of Gil Bates.

Most of the big churches who can pay a full time salary--have ministers who DID get some of theology degree. And have better communication skills than Ben, and more charisma than Brandon.

[and most of these pastors aren't Quiverfull, so they don't have a whole passel of kids to feed & clothe--just a handful at max]

I live in a rural area halfway between Rochester and Syracuse, and there's a "Bible Baptist" church in my town whose pastor worked for a large company in Syracuse during the week(they had 9 children, so the needed it for the health insurance).  His wife told me that he isn't paid a salary by the church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An aside, and putting in my two cents: I respect bi-vocational pastors (the formal name for pastors who also hold secular jobs while serving in a church).

While there are exceptions, many bi-vocational pastors are serving in the church as their gift, and using their personal work ethic to support themselves and their families, and not mooching off others. In some cases, pastors like this might be given a small amount of $$ from that church as a supplement.

Sure beats mooching.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm certainly not knocking bi-vocational ministers.  I was just pointing out that getting a position at a fundy church doesn't automatically equal a salary that can support a family, and all know that most of these Gothardites are EXTREMELY ill-equipped to compete for secular jobs.

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes.  My prediction is that, in spite of all this current scandal, IBLP will end not with a bang but a whimper.  The true believers will hang on until the bitter end when the cash runs out.  Most people will drift away and according to their individual mind sets, either join another like-minded para-church, or perhaps go more mainstream because of their burnt fingers.

And then other charismatic cult-like Fundamentalist assholes will rise to fill the gaps left by VF and IBLP.  We are already seeing Scott Brown happily scooping up as many VF followers as he can.

It is always a game of whack-a-mole.

One thing I noticed in the Staddon's very short  video about Daniel, showing him working in the IBLP finance office in the Oak Brook headquarters (shortly to be vacated): they have, in my opinion, VERY NICE office furniture:  http://staddonfamily.com/2016/03/19/more-about-daniel/  

No metal file cabinets and laminate desks for them!!  They were not scrimping in the office furnishing department.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Almost every independent or non denominational church I've know of or been a part of has had a bivocational pastor. The church often will pay a stipend, but not near enough to support a family.  I don't think that is a legitimate option for most of the guys involved. They can't all be in teaching positions can they? They must be performing some tasks that are at least giving them a marketable skill. Or at least an interest area that could lead to a marketable skill with some education. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

I'm certainly not knocking bi-vocational ministers.  I was just pointing out that getting a position at a fundy church doesn't automatically equal a salary that can support a family, and all know that most of these Gothardites are EXTREMELY ill-equipped to compete for secular jobs.

I understand. :-)  (Also: As you may infer, I don't have a high degree of respect overall - there are exceptions - for car salespeople. In so many cases, their main job qualification is being able to manipulate people - a skill that SOME preachers already have perfected... yep, I have seen this before...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, apple1 said:

I understand. :-)  (Also: As you may infer, I don't have a high degree of respect overall - there are exceptions - for car salespeople. In so many cases, their main job qualification is being able to manipulate people - a skill that SOME preachers already have perfected... yep, I have seen this before...)

The salesman thing is something of a joke in my family.   At a recent family gathering we had 3 different Protestant denominations represented (different flavors of Baptist, Methodist, and CofE) and a large number of Catholics.  We came up with 17 disgraced pastors/ministers/vicars/priests known personally to the extended family.  With the exception of the 3 who were incarcerated for their sexual abuse crimes all the others had become salesmen, the vast majority selling used cars.

Conclusion: experience in the pulpit is very helpful in establishing a career as a salesperson.

46 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

the Staddon's very short  video about Daniel, showing him working in the IBLP finance office in the Oak Brook headquarters (shortly to be vacated): they have, in my opinion, VERY NICE office furniture:  http://staddonfamily.com/2016/03/19/more-about-daniel/  

No metal file cabinets and laminate desks for them!!  They were not scrimping in the office furnishing department.

They've been living in the lap of luxury.  I think it is going to be hard for them to adjust.  

I really can't tell the Staddons apart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

The salesman thing is something of a joke in my family............ the vast majority selling used cars.

Conclusion: experience in the pulpit is very helpful in establishing a career as a salesperson.

THAT. Unfortunately, so much that.

Disclaimer: There ARE also good honest people who are pastors/etc. And because I personally am (still) a believer, I also believe there will be an accounting in the afterlife. I personally am FAR from perfect, but I sure would hate to be in the shoes of some at that point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, apple1 said:

THAT. Unfortunately, so much that.

Disclaimer: There ARE also good honest people who are pastors/etc. And because I personally am (still) a believer, I also believe there will be an accounting in the afterlife. I personally am FAR from perfect, but I sure would hate to be in the shoes of some at that point.

I agree, even though I am not a believer.  Not all pastors are evil at all and every profession has a few bad apples.  It is that the church(es) must stop protecting the evil ones.

And for the disgraced ones -  it's probably the only job many of them can get without references. The point is that they were all apparently remarkably successful as salespeople. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The gift of gab and meeting people where they are and then moving them the next step. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect people like Gil who is a good grifter and knows how to manipulate people will attempt to start his own "ministry" when IBLP eventually falls. He might be able to be moderately successful since he can even make people here at FJ overlook that he is cool with covering up abuse, but I doubt it will ever be as big as VF or IBLP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gil has head start with setting up a "ministry" since he has his own church.  I heard they moved to larger quarters already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These people won't realize or learn a damn thing until they hit rock bottom. That will take a hell of a lot more than the dismantling of IBLP. There will be another fundie organization out there for them to hitch their wagons to. It's going to take a major crisis of epic proportions for them to see the light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

These people won't realize or learn a damn thing until they hit rock bottom. That will take a hell of a lot more than the dismantling of IBLP. There will be another fundie organization out there for them to hitch their wagons to. It's going to take a major crisis of epic proportions for them to see the light.

It is the same philosophy that keeps North Korea afloat. All good things come from the dear leader. All evil comes from America. So if things go wrong (famine, disaster, general poverty) the only correct response is to unite and fight harder against America and have some extra Juche Indoctrination classes. In this model self evaluation does not exist. 

With lots of these IBLP folk it is probably similar. They do the right thing, which is not a conclusion, but their starting fact. If there is trouble, it can only be one thing, the devil is after them. He takes the shape of the media, science, depraved society, porn, whatever. The only correct response is to double up on indoctrination and fight off the attacs of satan. 

North Koreans may flee because of hunger or fear of being detained, but usually don't recognise the deprivation of their regime until AFTER they have been out of the country for some time. With many cults it is like that. People leave for a variety of reasons, but they cannot see the total picture until they have been without indoctrination for a while.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A question for lawyerly types and possibly accountants:

If home-churches are have tax-exempt status, would that not make the headship of the house/church a mandatory reporter? I know things get tricky with homeschooling and parental rights but if the headship is getting tax-exemption from the government for being 'clergy' , does that not come with an obligation to not break the law?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/21/2016 at 5:54 PM, Sundaymorning said:

What are their chances of becoming a pastor in some independent, fundie Baptist church? They don't seem to require real theology studies.

From observing the PP, I think two of his followers who started their own churches didn't have much theology studies. Roger Jimenez and Donnie Romero don't have theology school or training listed on their church websites. PP attended Hyles-Anderson, which is an unaccredited Bible college. As much as I dislike the PP, I have to give him credit for actually attending a theology school and then starting his church. It pisses me off when people the Duggars say they are "ministers", especially Boob and Josh who have never set foot in a kind of theology school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, lilwriter85 said:

From observing the PP, I think two of his followers who started their own churches didn't have much theology studies. Roger Jimenez and Donnie Romero don't have theology school or training listed on their church websites. PP attended Hyles-Anderson, which is an unaccredited Bible college. As much as I dislike the PP, I have to give him credit for actually attending a theology school and then starting his church. It pisses me off when people the Duggars say they are "ministers", especially Boob and Josh who have never set foot in a kind of theology school.

He dropped out of HAC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • hoipolloi locked this topic

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.