S'morton Bret Alan Smith Jailed (2)

[AmazonGrace]

36 minutes ago, oldsalty said:

Sorry I put the Mortons in parenthesis - I like them very much too.   I do not know the evidence against Alan - I have not heard it - I have no clue.  So I give the benefit of the doubt.  Also I am not trying to defend an image, but the Smiths did not make their son do that.  Plus, I don't see what the videos have to do with Alan . .  .that seemed off topic to me.  

As far as flouncing I did not even know what it was - BUT since I have been put on the "straight and narrow" I will try to be careful, courteous and respectful - okay?  Even when you insult me . . . I will take it.  BTW if you don't see me for awhile it is because I will be be busy elsewhere . . . since the information is private I will not disclose per FJ's rules about PERSEC.

The court will give Alan the benefit of the doubt and will not convict him unless there is evidence.

If we post on the internet that the victims of sexual abuse could very possibly be lying we are giving benefit of the doubt for the defendant but attacking the victims by assuming they're guilty, and that is a problem for me. Let's give the benefit of the doubt to the child who suffered in all this, shall we?

Some of the videos had to do with Alan because he participated in making the video but even if he hadn't, I think you will find that it's accepted and expected that threads go off topic all the time on Freejinger.

3 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

She is deactivated at her request.

Sorry, who is deactivated?

[AmazonGrace]

Anyway, I think that most of the time when it comes to incest and rape of a child, and the victim is still living, we the public should probably never hear the evidence. There is no reason we need to know all the horrid details, it is enough to know that the guilty party is in prison. The court has to weigh it, but as far as I'm concerned the evidence should be sealed to protect the victim's privacy, as much as possible. The victims should have the choice of trying to heal quietly or making the details of what was done to them public if they wish. 

And Alan has not even had his trial yet... Just because we have not heard the evidence I would not assume that there is none.  

 

 

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Anyway, I think that most of the time when it comes to incest and rape of a child, and the victim is still living, we the public should probably never hear the evidence. There is no reason we need to know all the horrid details, it is enough to know that the guilty party is in prison. The court has to weigh it, but as far as I'm concerned the evidence should be sealed to protect the victim's privacy, as much as possible. The victims should have the choice of trying to heal quietly or making the details of what was done to them public if they wish. 

And Alan has not even had his trial yet... Just because we have not heard the evidence I would not assume that there is none. 

YES!  It's the same in rape cases of adults too - people wanting to know the "full details" so they can decide if it was "real rape" or not - makes me furious.  If he's found guilty, I hope with all of me that we never find out the victims identities, or any of the details.

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

If we post on the internet that the victims of sexual abuse could very possibly be lying we are giving benefit of the doubt for the defendant but attacking the victims by assuming they're guilty, and that is a problem for me. Let's give the benefit of the doubt to the child who suffered in all this, shall we?

I'm pretty much jumping up and down and yelling THIS!!! at everything @AmazonGrace posts, but this is the most important thing.  "Benefit of the doubt" in any rape/abuse case is always a zero sum game, and suggesting the  victims are lying, even when trying to dress it up as "maybe they were told to", is a really shitty thing to do

[AmazonGrace]

Yeah and told to by whom? Who would even have a motive or opportunity to convince a child to tell falsehoods in this case? From what I've gathered most of the children in Alan's sphere are not in the public school system or daycare or anything like that where overzealous mandatory reporters would have the opportunity to form false suspicions. The angry ex making stuff up to get revenge scenario seems somewhat unlikely too given that his wife got into such financial dire straits with the  breadwinner in jail,  and seeing as how divorce and rising against your husband is not what she was raised to see as acceptable. Why would any of the extended family have a motive to destroy this family?

We have heard no evidence whatsoever that anyone told any child to say Alan raped her although it's not true, but apparently the police found enough evidence of his crime to arrest him and he has not been released, AFAIK. So up until he gets exonerated in court or someone gets charged for making a false police report, the evidence that is available to us points to Alan being guilty of something more than it points to anyone lying or telling anyone to lie about it.

 

 

[Newtothis]

For Katie and the kids benefit, I hope true justice will be served and everyone can begin to heal from the horrible ordeal. It will be a long and hard road for whomever is involved, but I am glad to see that she has such support from the Morton family.

[Lurky]

14 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Yeah and told to by whom? Who would even have a motive or opportunity to convince a child to tell falsehoods in this case?

Exactly.  And this is why I think  @oldsalty is just trolling us, because using this kind of "defense" for Brett Alan Smith because his family, and the Mortons too, are so great,  is this massive logic fail.  They're good families, so we should believe in him, but if we believe in him, the only people who can be conspiring against him are the families!

Anyway, as @Newtothis says, and lots of us have said in the threads, the fact the 2nd generation Morton/Smiths are focused on the victims is so good to see, and what should be the first instinct in anyone - if by some chance @oldsalty isn't trolling us, maybe they could think about following their example, since they admire the families.

 

[AmazonGrace]

44 minutes ago, Lurky said:

YES!  It's the same in rape cases of adults too - people wanting to know the "full details" so they can decide if it was "real rape" or not - makes me furious.  If he's found guilty, I hope with all of me that we never find out the victims identities, or any of the details.

I'm pretty much jumping up and down and yelling THIS!!! at everything @AmazonGrace posts, but this is the most important thing.  "Benefit of the doubt" in any rape/abuse case is always a zero sum game, and suggesting the  victims are lying, even when trying to dress it up as "maybe they were told to", is a really shitty thing to do

It was especially egregious in the Cosby case... Dozens of  women  saying he was a creepy bastard and people were giving  him the benefit of the doubt... them bitches could all be makin' it up for money and fifteen seconds of fame...  I got so angry about it sometimes.  I understand innocent before being proven guilty in a court of law, but we are not a court of law and I think it totally sucks if a  man's  word weighs more than  60  women's word.

Those people sure didn't need a court of law to prove the women to be liars before branding them as such.

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, oldsalty said:

It's a weird statement.

No, it is a bad statement. Feel free to take it line by line and explain how it is just "weird" and not horrible. 

Have you thought about why mocking "Captain" Bret's shitting video has upset you more than Jackie downplaying child molesting? If it is just because it was off topic, don't worry! Off topic is normal here. At least that was about the same family, which is practically on topic for Free Jinger. 

[Lurky]

32 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Those people sure didn't need a court of law to prove the women to be liars before branding them as such.

Yes, it's like "benefit of the doubt" only ever runs one way in all these cases, and people will twist themselves in knots  to defend the accused, while happily trampling all over the accusers.  I really like the concept of Occam's Big Paisley Tie to describe excusing racism/sexism etc, but I always think about it  in sexual assault/abuse too.

Quote

If Occam's Razor is the principle by which the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, this urge to exhaust every possible explanation—no matter how convoluted, remote, unlikely, or totally fucking absurd—is Occam's Big Paisley Tie.

ETA:  obviously this doesn't fit all Sexual Assault cases, nor would I ever suggest it does, but in the cases with multiple victims/witnesses coming forward over decades with the same basic stories - Cosby, Jimmy Saville, Gothard and so on, it's apt, to me

[AmazonGrace]

I see what you mean... Back when the Cosby scandal was fresh, some people on the comment section of an article were convinced that  Cosby got framed because he wanted to buy NBC a few years ago. All those women from different walks of life, most of whom had nothing to do with NBC,  conspired to accuse him because NBC executives had it in for Cosby for something that happened fifteen years ago.  That was the sort of convoluted explanation that would totally qualify for a paisley tie and a pair of knotted paisley pyjama pants too.

[Grimalkin]

     @oldsalty I'm glad your here. I don't mind your comments. I may respond to them unfavorably. 

     It pained me when you say you give Alan the benifit of a doubt. I think children and  abuse victims deserve to be believed. Voices go unheard too often.

        There was an incident of an adult grooming teenage girls in my community this past winter. Nobody said anything until it came very close to assault. The victims felt weird and uncomfortable, some mentioned to their parents the comments this man made to them and the parents kind of ignored it not knowing what to do. Maybe they justified it? They had known this man and his family for many years and were friends. It was an eye opening expierience to me.

         You are friends with the families, that's ok. I get it,most people have good and bad qualities. I am sure they have many good likeable qualities.

      Honestly, the captain stuff is weird though. It is. And I think in a round about way it is relevant. You have to have an enormous ego to come up with that, and teenage children cooperating, some even enthusiastically, is very unnatural.

        Katie growing up never making descisions........that makes me very sad.

* oh my god my grammar is appalling.

[fundiefan]

I don't think talking about the videos was off topic at all. They were brought up in the first place to show the kind of world in which Alan grew up, who his father is and the things he was taught.

The videos show, very clearly, what a fucked up life Bret Alan Smith I created for his kids because of his religion and hubris.

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Sorry, who is deactivated?

I believe @oldsalty was briefly deactivated at her own request and then asked to be reactivated.  That is allowed on FJ.

Thank you, @AmazonGrace, for your posts on this thread.  I agree with everything you said, and you put it all very well.  Probably a lot more clearly than I could!  

7 hours ago, oldsalty said:

Sorry I put the Mortons in parenthesis - I like them very much too.   I do not know the evidence against Alan - I have not heard it - I have no clue.  So I give the benefit of the doubt.  Also I am not trying to defend an image, but the Smiths did not make their son do that.  Plus, I don't see what the videos have to do with Alan . .  .that seemed off topic to me.  

As far as flouncing I did not even know what it was - BUT since I have been put on the "straight and narrow" I will try to be careful, courteous and respectful - okay?  Even when you insult me . . . I will take it.  BTW if you don't see me for awhile it is because I will be be busy elsewhere . . . since the information is private I will not disclose per FJ's rules about PERSEC.

If you are careful, courteous and respectful @oldsalty then you will get a better reception here.  

That does not mean people will agree with you, especially about giving Bret Alan Smith the benefit of the doubt, for the reasons clearly explained above.  

[formergothardite]

18 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

They were brought up in the first place to show the kind of world in which Alan grew up, who his father is and the things he was taught.

The videos show, very clearly, what a fucked up life Bret Alan Smith I created for his kids because of his religion and hubris.

I agree that the videos are on topic. Those videos show that the children were raised in an environment that wasn't normal by any stretch of the imagination. 

@oldsalty it is not normal or healthy to raise a daughter to be so mindless that she feels like she can't even decide who to marry.  Good parents would not want mindless daughters who are incapable of making decisions. The Captain bragged about it. That says a great deal about him. 

[oldsalty]

4 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

It was especially egregious in the Cosby case... Dozens of  women  saying he was a creepy bastard and people were giving  him the benefit of the doubt... them bitches could all be makin' it up for money and fifteen seconds of fame...  I got so angry about it sometimes.  I understand innocent before being proven guilty in a court of law, but we are not a court of law and I think it totally sucks if a  man's  word weighs more than  60  women's word.

Those people sure didn't need a court of law to prove the women to be liars before branding them as such.

yeah - I agree that whole thing makes me sick too  ...  .and he admitted his guilt.  Which I hope is done in this situation to spare the victims from having to testify and relive it.

[AmazonGrace]

2 minutes ago, oldsalty said:

yeah - I agree that whole thing makes me sick too  ...  .and he admitted his guilt.  Which I hope is done in this situation to spare the victims from having to testify and relive it.

No, Cosby never admitted that he raped anyone 

[oldsalty]

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

No, Cosby never admitted that he raped anyone 

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/07/07/bill-cosby-admitted-to-drugging-women-to-have-sex-rape-accusers-say-are.html

 

I heard different things this may be what I was thinking . . . I have not followed this too closely.

[AmazonGrace]

Yeah Cosby admitted in a deposition that he had sex with several of the accusers and said he gave some of them drugs. But he says it was all consensual and denies rape or drugging anyone against their will. 

[oldsalty]

5 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Yeah and told to by whom? Who would even have a motive or opportunity to convince a child to tell falsehoods in this case? From what I've gathered most of the children in Alan's sphere are not in the public school system or daycare or anything like that where overzealous mandatory reporters would have the opportunity to form false suspicions. The angry ex making stuff up to get revenge scenario seems somewhat unlikely too given that his wife got into such financial dire straits with the  breadwinner in jail,  and seeing as how divorce and rising against your husband is not what she was raised to see as acceptable. Why would any of the extended family have a motive to destroy this family?

We have heard no evidence whatsoever that anyone told any child to say Alan raped her although it's not true, but apparently the police found enough evidence of his crime to arrest him and he has not been released, AFAIK. So up until he gets exonerated in court or someone gets charged for making a false police report, the evidence that is available to us points to Alan being guilty of something more than it points to anyone lying or telling anyone to lie about it.

 

 

Sorry what is AFAIK?

[AmazonGrace]

As far as I know

[formergothardite]

@oldsalty, I do hope you will have the time to explain how Jackie's post wasn't downplaying child molesting.

And do you not find it concerning the the Smiths were proud of raising a daughter who couldn't make decisions? 

[lexiloumarie]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

@oldsalty, I do hope you will have the time to explain how Jackie's post wasn't downplaying child molesting.

And do you not find it concerning the the Smiths were proud of raising a daughter who couldn't make decisions? 

It was the Mortons who did, Katie is a Morton. Pa Morton was bragging on the Smiths youtube video about it though, and it was obviously something Capt'n has no problem with as he made the videos and allowed his son to marry their daughter even though she couldn't decide.

[oldsalty]

2 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

     @oldsalty I'm glad your here. I don't mind your comments. I may respond to them unfavorably. 

     It pained me when you say you give Alan the benifit of a doubt. I think children and  abuse victims deserve to be believed. Voices go unheard too often.

        There was an incident of an adult grooming teenage girls in my community this past winter. Nobody said anything until it came very close to assault. The victims felt weird and uncomfortable, some mentioned to their parents the comments this man made to them and the parents kind of ignored it not knowing what to do. Maybe they justified it? They had known this man and his family for many years and were friends. It was an eye opening expierience to me.

         You are friends with the families, that's ok. I get it,most people have good and bad qualities. I am sure they have many good likeable qualities.

      Honestly, the captain stuff is weird though. It is. And I think in a round about way it is relevant. You have to have an enormous ego to come up with that, and teenage children cooperating, some even enthusiastically, is very unnatural.

        Katie growing up never making descisions........that makes me very sad.

* oh my god my grammar is appalling.

ROFL - my grammar, my thought processes and spelling is appaling too!  Tired . .  .

Yes, that is very sad and truly I will tell  you when I read that about Alan it was crushing.  When I saw what the Mortons were saying I knew that it was a very good chance true because these families are close and it appears something very bad has happened.   I feel horrible for everyone involved.  That as what I was trying to communicate.  I cannot imagine being the mother or grandmother of Alan - see a comment even about the grandmother I thought was just not fair.  I think she was misunderstood (IMHO) - She was upset that this was publicly brought out on FB in that manner.  I don' t blame her .   .maybe she did not know yet and that was how it came out.  I guess I feel that we are on here judging people's reactions which may not be all that fair.  I am not sure what I would do or how I would react if one of my children were accused of such a heinous act because we  are still their parents.  I am only looking at that side though.  that does not mean I don't support the victim/victims.  My reactions are mostly out of shock. 

I am trying really hard to be succinct and clear in my responses, I just have a lot of thoughts and am trying to be careful what I say and thoughtful.  (Keeping on that straight and narrow - maybe I should change my name to "straight and narrow"

If I was shocked - how shocked his family must be.  Also I appreciate you may not agree with me.  because I will still maintain that I don't agree that the video is that telling.  I understand it is on topic and that is fine.  I have a lot of thoughts running through my head  and I am trying not to say all of them  of 

[Black Aliss]

9 hours ago, IntrinsicallyDisordered said:

I've had lifelong pain and will never bear children because of what was done to me but I've just got to learn to let it goooooo lol

IntrinsicallyDisordered, I'm so sorry this happened to you. Never let it go and fuck anyone who tells you to. Channel it into rage and channel the rage into constructive action.

As to BAS's presumption of innocence, his sister's recent blog post makes it pretty clear that at least some of his relatives believe the victim(s).

[oldsalty]

8 minutes ago, oldsalty said:

ROFL - my grammar, my thought processes and spelling is appaling too!  Tired . .  .

Yes, that is very sad and truly I will tell  you when I read that about Alan it was crushing.  When I saw what the Mortons were saying I knew that it was a very good chance true because these families are close and it appears something very bad has happened.   I feel horrible for everyone involved.  That as what I was trying to communicate.  I cannot imagine being the mother or grandmother of Alan - see a comment even about the grandmother I thought was just not fair.  I think she was misunderstood (IMHO) - She was upset that this was publicly brought out on FB in that manner.  I don' t blame her .   .maybe she did not know yet and that was how it came out.  I guess I feel that we are on here judging people's reactions which may not be all that fair.  I am not sure what I would do or how I would react if one of my children were accused of such a heinous act because we  are still their parents.  I am only looking at that side though.  that does not mean I don't support the victim/victims.  My reactions are mostly out of shock. 

I am trying really hard to be succinct and clear in my responses, I just have a lot of thoughts and am trying to be careful what I say and thoughtful.  (Keeping on that straight and narrow - maybe I should change my name to "straight and narrow"

If I was shocked - how shocked his family must be.  Also I appreciate you may not agree with me.  because I will still maintain that I don't agree that the video is that telling.  I understand it is on topic and that is fine.  I have a lot of thoughts running through my head  and I am trying not to say all of them  of 

I am sorry I forgot to respond to that person grooming in  your neighborhood - that is HORRIBLE.  I hate that this is happening to our children.