S'morton Bret Alan Smith Jailed (2)

[RosyDaisy]

Social media pages coming back to life and now this. @oldsalty you aren't fooling anyone.

[fundiefan]

8 hours ago, oldsalty said:

Okay - so do you know more than me or I more than you?  I don't think so.  I hope that those "professionals" were better than the ones I have known.  The ones I knew were so desperate to make a case they got children to lie.  Either way these families lives (victims, alleged perpetrator, mother, father, brothers, sisters etc) will never the the same.  I am looking at some of the rules here on this site and i guess I don't get how some of these comments follow rules.  but I should not worry - I will go back to "trolling" and reading and try to refrain from commenting as my comments ARE NOT helpful and I will not be contacting a helpmeet to say what I know . .  . oh and the down arrows?  It was for what I felt was unnecessary rudeness. . . goodness I am being roasted but heaven forbid that I would have something to say . . . 

Somehow I ended up on this post again, and didn't fully realize I'd read it already or something because it got me rolling my eyes so far back they came close to falling out.

The martyrs are crawling out of the woodwork.

You're reading the rules of posting and telling us we're breaking them - and diverting attention from the topic at hand. Then you are all passive-aggressive, and saying 'look at me' but don't worry, I'll still always be here so you can look later if you want. And the unnecessary rudeness and poor you are getting roasted...heavens to betsy, this is just so much, you better go find your smelling salts...and poor you just can't say anything in this place of meanies.

The dramatics are a sure sign of antagonizing behavior. The passive-aggression is a sure sign of someone not willing to take responsibility for their antagonizing behavior - you're just saying your piece and the meanies are getting all mean to you.

I would honestly rather have a real troll here posting and validly shredding what is said than poor wittle @oldsalty who is just so innocent and just so concerned about one family that is discussed due to a horrendous crime having been committed. Someone, after all, must protect that family name.

*Gag*

[nausicaa]

A nearly half page post with giant spacing to tell us to calm the fuck down and let it goooooo. 

Okay...

[apandaaries]

FJ: a bevy of bitches who just can't let shit go and get fixated on minor issues like the sexual abuse of children. Sheesh. 

[true believer]

First time posting...longtime lurker.  Up front, I'm a fundie (per your definition).  I only registered a week or two ago, cause I've seen what you folks do to fundiers/sympathizers when they post and I couldn't quite make my mind up to post and expose myself to that.

I know the Mortons quite well, the Smiths somewhat less well, the Sanders and Lanes even less than the Smiths.    Based on what old salty posted here, I'm quite certain she is not Captain Bret or even a family member, though I think I know who she is IRL.  I won't out her (if I'm correct in my guess) cause that isn't the right thing to do and I would hope if someone figured out who I am IRL they wouldn't out me either.  lol

I've followed the threads on this event since they first began here.  And when I first started lurking here a couple of years ago, I went back and read lots of old threads, particularly the ones on the S'Mortons.

I'm not quite sure why I am posting now...I'm not looking for attention and I'm not very interested in a debate about my beliefs.  Maybe I just wanted to verify that there are some of us who do read here on occasion and wish we could have a conversation with some of you without feeling like we are being chewed up and spit out.  A real conversation, with give and take on both sides, with respect given by both parties toward the *other side*.

[nausicaa]

5 minutes ago, true believer said:

I've followed the threads on this event since they first began here.  And when I first started lurking here a couple of years ago, I went back and read lots of old threads, particularly the ones on the S'Mortons.

I'm not quite sure why I am posting now...I'm not looking for attention and I'm not very interested in a debate about my beliefs.  Maybe I just wanted to verify that there are some of us who do read here on occasion and wish we could have a conversation with some of you without feeling like we are being chewed up and spit out.  A real conversation, with give and take on both sides, with respect given by both parties toward the *other side*.

There are several posters here who identify as Fundie and I don't think they always get chewed up and spit out. Obviously, they are going to be in the minority on a lot of social issues. Personally, I find it interesting when eloquent people with more conservative religious views post here. It adds another dimension to the conversation. And if anyone takes the time to write out a well thought out post addressing an issue, I'll respond with respect and think most others do as well.

However, I would not call Old Salty's posts intelligent. More like a mishmash of trollish run on sentences that just make enough sense to rile people up about a very sensitive topic. If she wants a real conversation, she needs to hold up her end of the bargain.

[ladyamylynn]

11 minutes ago, true believer said:

First time posting...longtime lurker.  Up front, I'm a fundie (per your definition).  I only registered a week or two ago, cause I've seen what you folks do to fundiers/sympathizers when they post and I couldn't quite make my mind up to post and expose myself to that.

I know the Mortons quite well, the Smiths somewhat less well, the Sanders and Lanes even less than the Smiths.    Based on what old salty posted here, I'm quite certain she is not Captain Bret or even a family member, though I think I know who she is IRL.  I won't out her (if I'm correct in my guess) cause that isn't the right thing to do and I would hope if someone figured out who I am IRL they wouldn't out me either.  lol

I've followed the threads on this event since they first began here.  And when I first started lurking here a couple of years ago, I went back and read lots of old threads, particularly the ones on the S'Mortons.

I'm not quite sure why I am posting now...I'm not looking for attention and I'm not very interested in a debate about my beliefs.  Maybe I just wanted to verify that there are some of us who do read here on occasion and wish we could have a conversation with some of you without feeling like we are being chewed up and spit out.  A real conversation, with give and take on both sides, with respect given by both parties toward the *other side*.

I can debate about some things, sure, like say whether or not homeschooling is a viable educational option. "Is child rape bad"  and "should we listen to the victims or not?" isn't up for debate though. 

[fundiefan]

@oldsalty didn't come here to have a discussion with anyone. His/her presense was entirely for the purpose of antagonizing and berating people.

I've seen a lot of conversations here between fundie & non fundie that were mutually respectful. As long as you agree that disagreement with beliefs can be respectful and is not an attack, I don't see any reason you can't engage.

[true believer]

I am not sure how many details of the situation @oldsalty actually has...I think she called herself defending a family she respects and admires, to some extent.  I am quite sure, if she is who I think she is, she would be appalled and horrified by what has been alleged to have happened in this situation.  I can clearly state that I do NOT support child abuse, molestation, or rape under any circumstances. 

Our definitions of abuse might vary a bit (I don't think spanking in and of itself, done properly is abuse).  However, this isn't about spanking, or sheltering, or anything like that.  This is something else entirely and it is WRONG, no matter who did it or for what reason.  There is NO defense for this kind of thing.

[Lurky]

33 minutes ago, true believer said:

I'm not quite sure why I am posting now...I'm not looking for attention and I'm not very interested in a debate about my beliefs.  Maybe I just wanted to verify that there are some of us who do read here on occasion and wish we could have a conversation with some of you without feeling like we are being chewed up and spit out.  A real conversation, with give and take on both sides, with respect given by both parties toward the *other side*.

So, Old Salty is getting kick-back NOT because they are a fundy, but because they are suggesting that Brett Alan Smith has been set up, and the victims are lying etc etc.  Of course a lot of people are not going to let that stand, because of the long history of not believing victims of abuse.  So, yeah, having that kind of conversation isn't going to go well.

But what I'm wondering - and I'm saying this in a gentle tone - is what kind of topics would you like to be having conversations about?  It's going to be very hard to have one about, eg, defending restricting girls' education, and having them only have one possible role in their future, but it's especially not going to be easy in a thread about child sexual abuse, and a poor woman left with 7 very young children and no way of supporting herself, because she's been deliberately raised to only be a wife & mother to as many children as possible.

Maybe it could happen elsewhere on the site, but I'd recommend, were you about to start one, not start with "none of you are going to respect me", because speaking personally, that gets my back up as much as the person upthread mocking me and others for caring about things like this.  I'd also recommend talking to the Mods, privately, to give some proof you really do know what you're talking about in terms of knowing families in real life.  They'll absolutely respect your anonymity, and definitely not out you, but if you, like me, lurked a lot before joining in, you'll know that a lot of people like to claim they're friends of families and throw out all kinds of made up stuff - the recent "I grew up with the bates kids" and the "my cousin is maried into the Vuolo family" types.

ETA: DEFENDING restricting education!  Sorry, I such at this writing malarky

[Palimpsest]

@true believer we know there are plenty of people who identify as Fundamentalist or Conservative Christian who read here.  Some of them even post here.  How they are treated depends a lot on how they behave.  Some of them come in with guns blazing and that is not appreciated.  

If people post politely, as you have done, then they will be treated a lot better than if they come here rudely.  Some people here are harsher than others about beliefs and attitudes they think are wrong.  All members also have to be prepared to defend their beliefs and comments - and disagreement is not always an attack.

You will definitely have to defend your beliefs about spanking here.  Most of us think it is very wrong.

Outing or doxing any FJ member is against the rules and is one of the few things that gets people banned outright and with no recourse.

[true believer]

I apologize if I should have made my comments in another thread instead of this one.  I was not attempting to derail the conversation about the horrible situation that is currently unfolding in the Smith/Morton families' lives.   I wholeheartedly agree that child molestion and abuse and rape is horrible beyond words and NO child should ever have to go through such a thing.

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, true believer said:

I apologize if I should have made my comments in another thread instead of this one.  I was not attempting to derail the conversation about the horrible situation that is currently unfolding in the Smith/Morton families' lives.   I wholeheartedly agree that child molestion and abuse and rape is horrible beyond words and NO child should ever have to go through such a thing.

No need to apologize, you are fine.  If you want, it is not a requirement, you can introduce yourself here: 

I'm glad that you are clear that child abuse, incest and rape are horrible and should never happen.

 

[RosyDaisy]

@true believer Thank you for your respectful posts. I would very interested to know if you can shed some light on what's going on. We don't post the names of victims here, so we won't ask you that. Jackie Smith's Facebook posts raises a lot of eyebrows. Can you shed some light on this without outing yourself?

[true believer]

If you are referring to the post she made in early July that was discussed up thread, it is most likely not referring to this situation at all.  Other than that, there really isn't much else I can say on that topic.  I think I know what point she was trying to make, but she did a lousy job of making it and left her thoughts open to interpretation that most likely wasn't intended.  However, I'm not privy to her private thoughts and can't be certain she meant what I thought she meant at the time

[formergothardite]

How exactly could that be interpreted in a non-horrible way? I read it trying and there is just no way that I can see how that isn't something really, really awful to write. 

1 hour ago, true believer said:

A real conversation, with give and take on both sides, with respect given by both parties toward the *other side*.

There have been conversations like that on here, but one of the big problems is that some of these fundie beliefs are just so horrible that having a conversation where the fundamentalist doesn't feel disrespected is pretty difficult. I *can't* respect the other side when the other side is doing terrible things because of their religious beliefs.

And with the "Captain", he is so full of himself and the way he treated his daughters is just terrible. How would we even begin to have a conversation where people who support him wouldn't feel disrespected? He raised his daughters to be mindless and unable to make decisions. Do you realize how awful that is to most people? 

[true believer]

I most definitely can think for myself.  As I said, I am a fundie and nobody tells me what to think or makes my decisions for me.  My dh respects me and my opinions.  We are taught from the pulpit that a man who does not listen to his wife and take her thoughts and opinions into consideration (serious consideration) is acting foolishly.  She is given instincts and a different way of thinking by God for his good.  Women and children are highly valued in our belief system and not just  because we are the means to producing many children.  A godly man is one who cherishes, values, protects, loves, and serves his wife and family in our belief system.

Do all fundies believer that?  do all fundies practice that seriously and continuously?  No, most certainly not.  But that is what we are taught in our church and that is the aim of most of the men I know.

If we aren't to derail this very serious topic here, it might be best if these sorts of questions are taken to another thread.  I have no idea if I am even allowed to start a thread yet, so perhaps one of you might do that if ya'll would prefer this discussion be held elsewhere.

[formergothardite]

Since Jackie's post does relate to the topic, is it possible for you to  explain how it could be taken in a non-horrible way? Because it really seems like she is downplaying children being molested. 

[true believer]

I could try, but I don't think I'd be successful, because honestly, it does come across that way.  I'm not defending her post in any shape, form, or fashion.  I just don't believe it referred to this situation at all.  I'll have to leave it at that.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I'm glad you are here true believer and I'm happy to debate respectfully. But I do agree with a previous poster that I just can't debate child rape. I can't. I'm absolutely disgusted by allegations that this child was coerced or lying. This is a huge reason why so many abuse victims stay quiet. Because they think no one will believe them. It makes me physically ill.

[Palimpsest]

11 minutes ago, true believer said:

I have no idea if I am even allowed to start a thread yet, so perhaps one of you might do that if ya'll would prefer this discussion be held elsewhere.

I have no idea but I'll start a new topic for you.  I'll edit this with a link in a minute.

 

[true believer]

To clarify, victims, even children, should be believed, particularly when there is any evidence at all that they are telling truth.  , most children should have no idea about this sort of thing and no inclination to lie.  Are there cases where an angry x coaches a child to lie?  Yes, there are.  Should that be our automatic assumption when this sort of case comes up?  No it should not!

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, true believer said:

I could try, but I don't think I'd be successful, because honestly, it does come across that way.  I'm not defending her post in any shape, form, or fashion.  I just don't believe it referred to this situation at all.  I'll have to leave it at that.

It may indeed not have referred to this situation but what she said was pretty indefensible on its own.  I'm surprised she didn't take it down after the arrest because it can be interpreted as her general views on the subject.

[true believer]

I agree.

[formergothardite]

The most likely explanation is that she meant it to mean the horrible thing that it actually says and there is no "good" way to interpret that post.