Jill Duggar Dillard Part 10: Taking Photos of Screaming Izzie

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, socalrules said:

I never understood why fundies ignore Mary. God found her holy enough to decide that she, out of everyone in the world, was to give birth to his child. She had such great faith that she believed God and did exactly what he wanted her to do. She raised the perfect son. She never lost her faith for a moment, even when her son was on the cross. She ascended into heaven. She is basically the epitome of the perfect mother. I don't understand the mental gymnastics fundies have to do to pretend that she does not have great importance in the story of Jesus. 

As I was saying to @Cleopatra7 I think they don't like Mary precisely because she is important.

Gothardism seems to be a movement that is very concerned with keeping women in positions where they have no real power over men.. They are expected to give their bodies completely over to their husbands, to satisfy lust and to provide progeny.  They are valued as mothers who continue the father's lineage. 

Mary is worshipped as a woman apart, as a woman who yielded directly to God's Will.  In the Immaculate Conception, male sexuality is made redundant. (So is female sexuality, but I don't think it would be noticed by the sort of man who wants to keep women in their "place.")

I think that the idea of a woman who is especially valued by God threatens their male-centered world view.  (Then there is the whole pagan connection; but that is only one part.)

 

[Cleopatra7]

17 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

As I was saying to @Cleopatra7 I think they don't like Mary precisely because she is important.

Gothardism seems to be a movement that is very concerned with keeping women in positions where they have no real power over men.. They are expected to give their bodies completely over to their husbands, to satisfy lust and to provide progeny.  They are valued as mothers who continue the father's lineage. 

Mary is worshipped as a woman apart, as a woman who yielded directly to God's Will.  In the Immaculate Conception, male sexuality is made redundant. (So is female sexuality, but I don't think it would be noticed by the sort of man who wants to keep women in their "place.")

I think that the idea of a woman who is especially valued by God threatens their male-centered world view.  (Then there is the whole pagan connection; but that is only one part.)

 

The status of women in many parts of Reformation Europe actually deteriorated, because the convents, one of the few places where women could receive education, power, and status, were closed. Many Protestant reformers, especially the so-called Magisterial reformers like Luther and Calvin, disliked the idea of women being in a state of semi-autonomy (nuns still had to rely on priests for mass and bishops to allow them to operate in their dioceses), and said that the well-ordered patriarchal household should be the normative "place" for women. "The Holy Household: Women and Morals in Reformation Augsburg" by Lyndal Roper describes this phenomenon well.

[Bad Wolf]

The fundies also seem to ignore that Jesus was a nice Jewish boy. 

[Imagine20]

Muslims don't want your tater tot hotdish, guy.

[KSmom]

10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

We were talking about the wedding at Cana in another message.  (It was today's  gospel reading in most of the Liturgical denominations including Catholic and Episcopalian.). In this reading, Mary asks Jesus to do something about the wine (it has run out) and Jesus replies something along the lines of "Mom, this is not what I am here for,"  but then he changes the water into wine--presumably because she asked it.

 

This was our reading also, but the Pastor's stepfather passed away Saturday morning after a long battle with Alzheimer's. He focused on the wedding part of this story and shared the beautiful story of his parent's marriage. It was beautiful.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

As I was saying to @Cleopatra7 I think they don't like Mary precisely because she is important.

Gothardism seems to be a movement that is very concerned with keeping women in positions where they have no real power over men.. They are expected to give their bodies completely over to their husbands, to satisfy lust and to provide progeny.  They are valued as mothers who continue the father's lineage. 

Mary is worshiped as a woman apart, as a woman who yielded directly to God's Will.  In the Immaculate Conception, male sexuality is made redundant. (So is female sexuality, but I don't think it would be noticed by the sort of man who wants to keep women in their "place.")

I think that the idea of a woman who is especially valued by God threatens their male-centered world view.  (Then there is the whole pagan connection; but that is only one part.)

 

Actually, if you're referring to Catholics Mary is venerated, not worshiped.  I'm not trying to be pedantic but the distinction is important when talking about fundies because it's one of their mistaken assumptions about Catholics.  

When Catholics pray to Mary it's asking her to intercede on our behalf and pray for us.  It's no different than how Christians of all stripes pray for each other - or asking people to pray for you.  In those cases I liken it to needing a favor from a guy and after you ask him you get everyone you know, who knows him, to badger him about it so he doesn't forget and takes care of it for you.  

Asking Mary to pray for you is like when you need that same favor and you know his mom really likes you so you ask her to put in a good word, because she's in the position to do a little motherly influence on your behalf.  

I guess that's one of the great mysteries of Christianity - which kind of badgering does Jesus find more annoying.  

Tongue in cheek examples, but the distinction is real as Mary isn't worshiped because while her role is revered, she's not divine in the eyes of the RCC.  

Your points are excellent though, and I agree with you.  Many fundies and fundie lites have the view that Catholics are actually pagan.

[felinefundie]

I saw this today, and felt the need to share it here. See Jill, this could have been you, getting a real education and going to make a difference in an area that could actually use your help. Instead, you are trying to convert Catholics and playing pretend midwife for the cameras. 

[Four is Enough]

EmCatlyn said,

Quote

Mary is worshipped

But she isn't. She is venerated. Saints are venerated. Only God is worshipped; Only God is adored. This tenet is often sneaked into discussions as to WHY CATHOLICS ARE BAD... Straight from Merriam-Webster: 

Quote

 

 veneration: respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person

 

 

 

 

Yeah. I think the Blessed Mother is AWE-some. But I don't worship her.

I do agree that one of the basic differences (and hang-ups, and misunderstandings) between Catholics and Protestants is the whole canon of saints. Why should anyone need to use a go-between ("Oh, Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee" "Dear Saint Anthony, come around, something's lost and must be found") when they can pray straight to God?Ultimately, the goal is the same: Asking the Blessed Mother to pray for me.. It's comforting to think there's a friend in Heaven, you know? 

[paulypepper]

21 hours ago, accountingstar said:

I found a video that SOS founder Mike Schadt did in December for the Homekeepers show. It is truly a must watch. It starts around 9:15. His son Micah is also on the show. He is supposed to be working with Jill and Derick. Arthelene Rippy is the host of the show.

I cannot even tell you all the snark here:

Mike didn’t go to seminary either Mike was a missionary in Italy for 3 years. He is finding places where the gospel has not come.

Host states that there are quite a few people in the US that needs the gospel.

The host says [website] kinda simple, no bells or whistles. I feel it needs a makeover.

Mike went to the Middle East to evangelize the Muslims. According to Mike, a great way to a Muslim’s heart is their stomach.

The host says get them [children] saved then educate them.

I cannot make this stuff up.

Micah's Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/schadt_ka_laka/

All this and pizza dip too!! I have a feeling I'm about to fall into another rabbit hole, cuz something is drawing me to watch more of these vids....

[Georgiana]

Re: Veneration of the Blessed Mother

The story of the Wedding at Cana and changing water into wine was taught to me as why Catholics venerate Mary.  Because it is shown in the scriptures that Jesus listens to his mother and heeds her requests...even if it is something that seems "silly" to him or out of his divine mission.  Even though often our personal prayers are not important in the grand global scheme, through the mercy and intercession of Mary (and the saints) they may still come to God's attention.

My favorite Mary saying is: When St. Peter shuts the pearly gates, the Blessed Mother opens a window.

Also, I went to a Catholic school and before we took the field for athletic events we used to yell together, "Hail Mary, Queen of Victory: PRAY FOR US!".  The non-Catholic schools always seemed somewhat spooked by this

[Toaster]

I kind of love the idea of Mary being somewhat subversive. Like, "Look son, you may not care that Toaster has lost her keys, but she asked me about it, and I want to make sure you give it some thought!"

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Toaster said:

I kind of love the idea of Mary being somewhat subversive. Like, "Look son, you may not care that Toaster has lost her keys, but she asked me about it, and I want to make sure you give it some thought!"

I love this!  And if he didn't move on your keys fast enough a reminder that she carried him for 9 months and what that did for her reputation, but if he can't do this one little key finding favor because he's so busy then...fiiiiiine...I'm just your mother.  :::sigh:::

[louisa05]

46 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Re: Veneration of the Blessed Mother

The story of the Wedding at Cana and changing water into wine was taught to me as why Catholics venerate Mary.  Because it is shown in the scriptures that Jesus listens to his mother and heeds her requests...even if it is something that seems "silly" to him or out of his divine mission.  Even though often our personal prayers are not important in the grand global scheme, through the mercy and intercession of Mary (and the saints) they may still come to God's attention.

My favorite Mary saying is: When St. Peter shuts the pearly gates, the Blessed Mother opens a window.

Also, I went to a Catholic school and before we took the field for athletic events we used to yell together, "Hail Mary, Queen of Victory: PRAY FOR US!".  The non-Catholic schools always seemed somewhat spooked by this

Before competitions, parades, etc...our Catholic school marching band would yell "Peter, Paul and Mary, PRAY FOR US". Mostly for the freak out effect it had on the public school kids in the area.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, KSmom said:

This was our reading also, but the Pastor's stepfather passed away Saturday morning after a long battle with Alzheimer's. He focused on the wedding part of this story and shared the beautiful story of his parent's marriage. It was beautiful.

Our pastor talked about how the wine represents all the spiritual riches of Christ.  The focus on "Mary asked it of him," was mine, for the purpose of this thread.  The story of the marriage  at Cana is very rich.

[socalrules]

On this thread alone, we have had a more educational, insightful, respectful discussion on religion than anything we have ever heard from the Duggars. It's discussions like these that make people want to learn more about various religions. Sadly, the Duggars nor any fundy, will ever take note. 

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Actually, if you're referring to Catholics Mary is venerated, not worshiped.  I'm not trying to be pedantic but the distinction is important when talking about fundies because it's one of their mistaken assumptions about Catholics.  

When Catholics pray to Mary it's asking her to intercede on our behalf and pray for us.  It's no different than how Christians of all stripes pray for each other - or asking people to pray for you.  In those cases I liken it to needing a favor from a guy and after you ask him you get everyone you know, who knows him, to badger him about it so he doesn't forget and takes care of it for you.  

Asking Mary to pray for you is like when you need that same favor and you know his mom really likes you so you ask her to put in a good word, because she's in the position to do a little motherly influence on your behalf.  

I guess that's one of the great mysteries of Christianity - which kind of badgering does Jesus find more annoying.  

Tongue in cheek examples, but the distinction is real as Mary isn't worshiped because while her role is revered, she's not divine in the eyes of the RCC.  

Your points are excellent though, and I agree with you.  Many fundies and fundie lites have the view that Catholics are actually pagan.

You are right, I used the wrong word, for the reasons you give.

I was carelessly using the word "worship" in the sense of "ritually honored" instead of "treated as divine" but that is confusing in this context.  I agree that the Virgin Mary is not "worshipped" (though she can be  "adored") but "venerated."

 

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

 

But she isn't. She is venerated. Saints are venerated. Only God is worshipped; Only God is adored. This tenet is often sneaked into discussions as to WHY CATHOLICS ARE BAD... Straight from Merriam-Webster: 

Yeah. I think the Blessed Mother is AWE-some. But I don't worship her.

 

Yeah, I definitely used the word carelessly.  I should have said "venerated."  I was thinking of ritual (the act of showing respect as "worship") rather than the correct theological distinction.

I will say that I was taught that you can "adore" the Virgin Mary in the same sense that you "adore" your child of your lover or a city, etc.. (Not in the sense of "treat as divine.")

When I was a kid I found the idea of the Virgin Mary as a mother figure much more accessible for my prayers than Big Father God.  The first prayer I learned was the Hail Mary.

As to why one might want to pray to saints instead of directly to God, I was always told one could do both and the intercession from the saint/Holy Mother would add strength to the request.

Yeah, I can see why it might seem odd or pagan, but no odder than some of the things certain Protestants do.

[Georgiana]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, I definitely used the word carelessly.  I should have said "venerated."  I was thinking of ritual (the act of showing respect as "worship") rather than the correct theological distinction.

I will say that I was taught that you can "adore" the Virgin Mary in the same sense that you "adore" your child of your lover or a city, etc.. (Not in the sense of "treat as divine.")

When I was a kid I found the idea of the Virgin Mary as a mother figure much more accessible for my prayers than Big Father God.  The first prayer I learned was the Hail Mary.

As to why one might want to pray to saints instead of directly to God, I was always told one could do both and the intercession from the saint/Holy Mother would add strength to the request.

Yeah, I can see why it might seem odd or pagan, but no odder than some of the things certain Protestants do.

I had a priest who used to say "Just because it's pagan, doesn't mean it's worthless."  What he meant by that was that some parts of the Catholic religious practice ARE pagan in origin, but that this is fine and actually beneficial.

Just like Dwarven Steel only imbibes that which strengthens it, the Catholic Church incorporated those pagan practices that they felt were actually helpful in furthering the spiritual growth of practitioners.  In the case of the saints/Virgin Mary, they allow us to relate to a divine aspect better than just the singular image of a bearded Sky-father.  For those of us who will never have beards or be fathers, this can be very helpful in really making God present in our lives.  

[twinmama]

21 hours ago, Catey said:

According to my Grandma (Canadian IFB) the only women who drank wine were easy to spot. They all wore blue eyeshadow. The makeup of the devil.

I have to agree there, lol. Has anyone ever looked good in blue eye shadow??

[ksgranola1]

Any woman who would have natural childbirth in a stable after what had to be a hell-ish ride on a donkey, has got my vote.

[Cassielfsw]

19 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

We were talking about the wedding at Cana in another message.  (It was today's  gospel reading in most of the Liturgical denominations including Catholic and Episcopalian.). In this reading, Mary asks Jesus to do something about the wine (it has run out) and Jesus replies something along the lines of "Mom, this is not what I am here for,"  but then he changes the water into wine--presumably because she asked it.

 

"Jesus, sweetie, be a dear. Mommy needs to get her drink on." 

"Aww, moooom!" 

[xlurker]

Sorry now that I missed church yesterday--we have a new reverand and would have liked to see if anything was said regarding the sanctions....

[EmCatlyn]

You all know the story of the woman who was going to be stoned because she had been caught in a big sin, right?

 And along comes Jesus and he says,

"Okay, I know that is the law, but... Tell you what, it should be the person who is without sin who casts the first stone."

And everyone is looking at each other, a little uncomfortable because if truth be told, no one is without sin.  So they can't get on with their scheduled stoning.

But then this little woman joins the crowd and with an impatient glance at Jesus  picks up a large stone and throws it at the sinful woman.

And Jesus turns to her and says,

"Ah Mom!  --Do you always have to spoil everything?"

[Bad Wolf]

I guess the sanction is for 3 years, and we've been sanctioned before.

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

You all know the story of the woman who was going to be stoned because she had been caught in a big sin, right?  

Land along comes Jesus and he says,

"Okay, I know that is the law, but... Tell you what, it should be the person who is without sin who casts the first stone."

And everyone is looking at each other, a little uncomfortable because if truth be told, no one is without sin.  So they can't get on with their scheduled stoning.

But then this little woman joins the crowd and with an impatient glance at Jesus  picks up a large stone and throws it at the sinful woman.

And Jesus turns to her and says,

"Ah Mom!"  Do you always have to spoil everything?"

Tut Tut.

[JMO]

Getting back to the Dillard's, I was reading about the new mosquito borne virus zika. They are encouraging women who are pregnant or may become pregnant to avoid multiple countries in Central America (among others) due to possible severe birth defects. While I know this won't change the Dillards' decision to be there it could have lasting implications for them to play missionary.