Jill Duggar Dillard Part 10: Taking Photos of Screaming Izzie

[missegeno]

This bible discussion is confusing me a bit. So Mary was married to Joseph? Before or after Jesus was conceived? If they were already married pre-Jesus, does that mean that they didn't consummate the marriage? How is that acceptable to fundies? I'm not snacking here, just confused about the order of events.

[missegeno]

This struck me from the SOS posting:

This man with no job for 12 months, 2 kids, 1 wife, thought about taking his life away.

I can't help but wonder how the Dillards parse situations like that, given they are voluntarily jobless and don't seem to give much thought to the long-term necessity of supporting their child (and possible future children.) Do they understand that desperation at all? Or because any financial issues of their own are solved by begging for donations and/or living on her wealthy daddy's money, do they see unemployment as a minor issue to be prayed away?

I can't even begin to imagine what advice they would give a person in that situation while on their "mission," or how they could give any advice at all without feeling totally insincere. I doubt they engage in enough self-reflection to question their own sincerity, though.

I would presume that they would think the desperate people just had been praying wrong and that God wasn't providing because they hadn't KJV'd properly. I'm sure they shared the truth with him though and all will be well for his family now.

[missegeno]

Only that last paragraph is from me! I don't know why tapatalk keeps mis attributing quotes to me, but I didn't touch any of it!

[paganhomeschooler]

49 minutes ago, missegeno said:

This bible discussion is confusing me a bit. So Mary was married to Joseph? Before or after Jesus was conceived? If they were already married pre-Jesus, does that mean that they didn't consummate the marriage? How is that acceptable to fundies? I'm not snacking here, just confused about the order of events.

From what I was taught (9 years in Catholic school), Mary and Joseph were only betrothed but not officially married when she conceived Jesus.  I was always under the impression they did end up getting married before they went to Bethlehem, but religion class was a looong time ago.  FWIW, I do remember being taught in school that Mary and Joseph had more kids after Jesus.  I think that was only in 8th grade when we were "old enough" to learn more controversial church teachings.  I did have some pretty open minded religion teachers, though.  They also told us to not be stupid and for the love of all things holy use birth control. 

[missegeno]

Ah, that would make it all fit together better. Thanks!

[Catey]

1 hour ago, missegeno said:

I can't help but wonder how the Dillards parse situations like that

Oh I know this one. "It is all Gods plan" Then straight into talking about how things are set in front of us to test us or just give us a chance to become closer to God.

Then onto more about living a Godly life is the only way to get through the rough times.

Nothing real, nothing that would really help.

And 0 mental health discussion.

[KSmom]

10 minutes ago, Catey said:

Oh I know this one. "It is all Gods plan" Then straight into talking about how things are set in front of us to test us or just give us a chance to become closer to God.

Then onto more about living a Godly life is the only way to get through the rough times.

Nothing real, nothing that would really help.

And 0 mental health discussion.

Not to mention, no food? 

My husband and I spent two years working in rural Mexico with short term missions trips (we did actual work - helping families build homes, working in an after school program). Everyone who came down was given a list of supplies to bring with them - one of the things that everybody brought was dried beans and rice. We keep those at our base to have for those who needed food. We always had at least this to give out. 

Not to mention the disrespect of proseletyzing inside a Catholic Church!!

[Bad Wolf]

I am surprised their Spanish is good enough to understand the man, let alone tell him he'd been praying wrong. Inside a Catholic church, no less. These people. 

[MayMay1123]

8 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I am surprised their Spanish is good enough to understand the man, let alone tell him he'd been praying wrong. Inside a Catholic church, no less. These people. 

i don't think that post was from them. according to pickles fb page: "This guy was on the El Salvador/Honduras mission trip in December with the Duggars and Dillards."

[MatthewDuggar]

From Matthew 1:18-24 in the New Living Translation, which I prefer:

The Birth of Jesus the Messiah

18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. 19 Joseph, her fiancé, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagementh quietly.

20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus,i for he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet:

23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child!

She will give birth to a son,

and they will call him Immanuel,j

which means ‘God is with us.’”

24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

[Bad Wolf]

@MayMay1123 thanks. 

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

Going back to my "heathen Catholic catechism" (LOL) from a few moons ago, I think paganhomeschooler got it right - M and J were betrothed, but not yet officially married.

However, it was explained to me - by a historian, not a religious person - that betrothal in those times carried a lot more weight than what we'd think today as an engagement. Practically, as I understood it, with betrothal you were already married in the "contractual" sense, the alliance between the families had been finalized and all terms agreed to, but the "transfer of the authority" from father to headship/husband had not been made yet (hence no consummation). 

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

She mentions that he's talkative. I really wonder what Israel's language development is going to be like, since his mom's language developed in a relatively isolated situation, and he's growing up in a foreign country where he'll certainly hear a lot of Spanish, but he's not really integrated into the Spanish-speaking community because his parents are too scared to leave their White People Bubble.

Probably slightly delayed. I wonder if Jill talks to Izzy? I'm betting she does-

My GD is 21 mos old and lives in So America. Her mom, my daughter, is fully bilingual and her father is a native Spanish speaker with some English. She's about 80%/20% with Spanish being dominant. She does understand both languages. It's funny because when I speak to her  in Spanish, she sometimes will look at me as if I'm nuts [I might be]. In the Fall, she will start nursery school at the American International school where everyone must speak English...that should be interesting for her. 

[sawasdee]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Probably slightly delayed. I wonder if Jill talks to Izzy? I'm betting she does-

My GD is 21 mos old and lives in So America. Her mom, my daughter, is fully bilingual and her father is a native Spanish speaker with some English. She's about 80%/20% with Spanish being dominant. She does understand both languages. It's funny because when I speak to her  in Spanish, she sometimes will look at me as if I'm nuts [I might be]. In the Fall, she will start nursery school at the American International school where everyone must speak English...that should be interesting for her. 

I had friends where Dad was Spanish, Mum was French, and they lived in London. Dad only spoke Spanish to Anthony, Mum only French, and everybody else English. He went through a period where all three languages would appear in the same sentence, but as he grew older replied in whatever language was used to address him. As an adult, he is completely trilingual, and has added a couple of other languages too - I am actually very jealous!

[MoonFace]

19 hours ago, DugFan said:

The article says anyone who is in the area "strictly follow steps to prevent mosquito bites during the trip, including wearing long sleeves, long pants"  PANTS?!?!?!  Bwah ha ha!!  The worst news a Duggar missionary could hear!!

She will just wear pants under her skirt.   

[livinginthelight]

10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIAN.  The correct way to refer to differences in beliefs and practice is "Catholics and Protestant."  (While I am at it, the Greek and Russian Orthodox are also Christian.  Any group or individual that believes in the divinity of Jesus and tries to follow His teachings is Christian.)

Catholics do not believe that Mary refused to have sex with Joseph.  The teaching is that Joseph abstained out of respect for the miracle that had happened through her body.

For what it is worth, though the Catholic Church sees baptism as essential for a person to be counted as a Christian,  I have never heard any Catholic speak of un-baptized children or even young adults in Baptist and other adult-baptism denominations  as not really Christian.  Too bad so many of the adult baptism denominations can't return the respect and courtesy.

EmCatlyn, I do absolutely know that Catholics are Christian. I'm sorry. I should have said Catholics and Protestants. Though if you ask me my faith, I say "Christian." And if you ask most Catholics their faith, they say "Catholic." I never call myself a "Protestant" unless I am clarifying my theology.  So I was speaking from this place, not implying at all that Catholics aren't Christian.

And with the sex thing, I was responding to a previous poster (no time to find it at the moment) who implied that some Catholics believe that Mary refused. Or who I read as saying that.

 

 

[artdecades]

This conversation is fascinating to me. As a secular Jew, I have never spent a second considering whether Jesus had siblings or how much Joseph and Mary did or did not bone. I never thought about it. It's really something to see that there are whole theological debates between sects about these facts.

[accountingstar]

I went through the comments on the Dillards belong and found the following:

I would hate to be a Spanish teacher at CSA with different students trying to convert me to their religion.
 

Quote

Elisabeth

12/27/2015 04:54 PM

I went to CSA as well and has some really good opportunities to witness to my spanish teacher, Olga Perez. One night I even prayed that she would have a dream about Jesus... and she did. She still isn't a believer, but she is close. If you see her, take the time to minister to her there. :-)

Best blog comment:

Quote

Carol Daley

12/27/2015 12:33 AM

Why do you dislike Catholics so much? I'm Catholic and I don't judge or try to convert others. I just want to know why the dislike for my religion.

Another interesting comment:

Quote

cat smith

12/27/2015 11:45 AM

Are ya'll doing any specific projects down there, like helping to build a school or teaching new agriculture techniques or are you focusing on making speeches at existing churches?

It would be nice if they were actually helping people out.

I love that Life is not all pickles and hairspray FB is getting their information from FJ.  And they get the information wrong. It wasn't from a guy's Instagram. It was from a girl's. This is regarding the evangelizing in the Catholic Church. I don't care if you want to share it, but do it is right or you are just like a People Magazine writer.

This was from their website:

Quote

This guy was on the El Salvador/Honduras mission trip in December with the Duggars and Dillards. He apparently staked out this church in order to find someone to convert because you know crying out in a Catholic church is futile and Catholics don't believe that Jesus is the way to salvation (major sarcasm here) so arrogant intervention must save the day. I'm sure if this man wanted to talk to a priest he could have found one pretty easily. I'm also sure that since this man entered a church for help he most likely believes in Christ.

The information came from the Instagram account of lnavarro93 and the incident took place in San Salvador, El Salvador.

Here's the information regarding the owner of the account:

Quote

Lогч иаvагго

Jеsus is тне оиLч waч аиd тяuтн ➕ Travel around tö share höpe

This appears to be her Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/lory.navarro

[vienna]

4 hours ago, Catey said:

Oh I know this one. "It is all Gods plan" Then straight into talking about how things are set in front of us to test us or just give us a chance to become closer to God.

Then onto more about living a Godly life is the only way to get through the rough times.

Nothing real, nothing that would really help.

And 0 mental health discussion.

Luckily this job is not done by jill and derr because THEY DON'T SPEAK THE LANGUAGE of the people the want so save from believing in Christ . It is just unbelievable but I really hope the really of the lack of skills will open their eyes a bit.

[accountingstar]

So Lory who posted about evangelizing in the Catholic Church also knows Tabitha Paine. Tabitha was also on the SOS December ministry trip. She's on the left.

 

Does the other girl on the right look like a Paine Sister?

Here are the Paine Sisters:

It is interesting that everyone knows each other.

[EmCatlyn]

8 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

EmCatlyn, I do absolutely know that Catholics are Christian. I'm sorry. I should have said Catholics and Protestants. Though if you ask me my faith, I say "Christian." And if you ask most Catholics their faith, they say "Catholic." I never call myself a "Protestant" unless I am clarifying my theology.  So I was speaking from this place, not implying at all that Catholics aren't Christian.

And with the sex thing, I was responding to a previous poster (no time to find it at the moment) who implied that some Catholics believe that Mary refused. Or who I read as saying that.

Thanks for clarifying.  I don't know what denomination/movement you identify with, but in my experience the Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians an Presbytereans etc. all identify their denominations when you ask their religion--even some Southern Baptists will do so.  In the US, there are so many Christians that to call oneself Christian is like saying one likes cheese. (What kind of cheese?)

Seriously, context is everything.  As a child in a predominantly Catholic country, I heard Catholic and Christian used interchangeably.  Protestants were Christian also, but they were the ones who defined themselves as Disciples of Christ or Methodist or whatever.  

Interestingly, the Republican political candidate, Marco Rubio, identifies as a Roman Catholic but talks like an evangelical.  (He apparently attends both a Baptist and a Catholic Church.) My husband recently showed me a clip in which Rubio talks of himself as a Christian.

Returning to the SOS ministries and the Dillards, by excluding the Roman Catholics from the category of "Christian," they can justify a sort of self-aggrandizing "mission."  It is a lot easier to convert people who already vaguely believe in Jesus to a new "faith" -- and it is more fun to go to El Salvador and put on plays than it is to admit that these people are already "Christian" and to offer some useful help.

[SilverBeach]

23 hours ago, Whoosh said:

LOL - ok.  So you are right and massive numbers of Christians, a butt-load of Christian scholars and elders, and MYSELF are wrong.  Got it.  Tell me if I say it right for you "Jesus (who may not have existed) had siblings (though many believe they were cousins and it could all just be a story), so Silverbeach is right".  I realize that is snarky, but your responses to me and how you speak of the beliefs of others are also snarky, as it REALLY is just a matter of what you believe.  As a non-theist, I am not all that tied to being right on who Jesus' siblings were if you can imagine that.  

I personally don't believe in God, but I think the lessons I learned about how to be like Jesus Christ are quite valuable.  Love thy neighbors (all of them) - stuff like that.

As with our prior dustup, you are putting words into my mouth. No where did I ever say that I speak for all Christians. But neither do you. I truly have no problem with anything anybody believes, don't know how you arrived at that conclusion either. But I am not an ignorant backwater Christ follower and for you to assume that I am just speaking without study or knowledge is once again, insulting, LOL. I don't have it all figured out and your status as a non theist gives you no superiority here, and that's how you come across to me.

[halcionne]

22 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

In the US, there are so many Christians that to call oneself Christian is like saying one likes cheese. (What kind of cheese?)

 I agree with this, but in my experience, the newer (last twenty years or so) non-denom "bible" churches call themselves Christian and leave it at that. It's just as vague as saying you like cheese, if the cheese you like is Velveeta.

Full disclosure: I have had bad experiences in the non-denom denom and I don't like them. I don't much like cheese, either. Actually, I'm particular about cheese. And organized religion. I'll stop now. 

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, paganhomeschooler said:

From what I was taught (9 years in Catholic school), Mary and Joseph were only betrothed but not officially married when she conceived Jesus.  I was always under the impression they did end up getting married before they went to Bethlehem, but religion class was a looong time ago.  

The way betrothal worked back then, it was essentially a marriage contract.  It was not an engagement.  It was a marriage that was not supposed to be consummated until after the man and woman moved in together after some form of celebration.  There were a lot of reasons for the couple being betrothed for a while before marriage.  These ranged from saving up for the dowry, building/fixing or adding a room to a house, waiting until mourning for a relative passed or for te bride to reach sexual maturity or an older sister to be given in marriage first, etc.. In any case, what happened was that when Mary was found to be pregnant, if it was Joseph who was the father, no big deal.  It was seen as sort of like eloping;  the couple didn't wait for the big public celebration but they were already as good as married, so there would be a quiet celebration and the woman would move in with the man with the blessings of the community.

Now if Mary had slept with another man than Joseph, it would count as adultery.  She might even be stoned.  But Joseph was a kind man and he was not going to say anything, just quietly divorce her.  When the angel explained that Mary had not been unchaste, Joseph just acted outwardly as though the child were his.  They moved in together and whatever small formalities were left to be performed were carried out quietly.  The betrothal was really the important marriage contract.

 

[Whoosh]

20 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

As with our prior dustup, you are putting words into my mouth. No where did I ever say that I speak for all Christians. But neither do you. I truly have no problem with anything anybody believes, don't know how you arrived at that conclusion either. But I am not an ignorant backwater Christ follower and for you to assume that I am just speaking without study or knowledge is once again, insulting, LOL. I don't have it all figured out and your status as a non theist gives you no superiority here, and that's how you come across to me.

Seriously?  I just about always clarify opinion vs fact.  YOU quoted me and tried to tell me what to believe by stating your views as fact., I said "you can believe that, but not everyone does", then YOU said something like "Jesus DEFINITELY had blah blah blah and they were DEFINITELY blah blah blah blah".  I would suggest that you 1) don't try to tell others what to think on matters of opinion (particularly when it comes to views on religion and/or faith which are deeply personal) and 2) learn to distinguish opinion vs fact.  You are more than welcome to put me on your foe list.  The only reason we are interacting on this thread is that YOU quoted me and proceeded to tell me what to think about a matter that clearly is one of opinion.

WHY the FUCK would my status as a non theist give me any superiority?  It doesn't give me superiority any more than YOUR beliefs give YOU superiority. If you don't want these types of interactions, stop insisting people agree with your version of "truth" about Jesus, God, faith, etc.  Not gonna happen.  Enjoy your day.