Jill Duggar Dillard Part 10: Taking Photos of Screaming Izzie

[Catey]

The only thing about Mary that I never got was HOW/WHY she was a virgin.

She was after all married to Joseph so one would assume at some point they would share a bed, no?

But somehow she is the eternal virgin.

[2manyKidzzz]

11 minutes ago, Catey said:

The only thing about Mary that I never got was HOW/WHY she was a virgin.

She was after all married to Joseph so one would assume at some point they would share a bed, no?

But somehow she is the eternal virgin.

My understanding of that was that God the Father was the actual father, not a human man. She was pregnant before they married. Whether or not she remained a virgin was not as important as God himself being the father of Jesus. The archangel Gabriel informed her of the impending birth of her child. 

That is what I remember. That is what I was told. 

[Catey]

1 minute ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Whether or not she remained a virgin was

But then would she not just have been Mary the woman who had the Virgin birth, yet she is still know as the virgin Mary, I just always thought that it implied that she retained her virginity, rough deal for Joseph, no?

I know (or think that I remember) she was not married to Joseph but betroved to him when she conceived but then he married her so just never got the virgin tag.

[Whoosh]

1 minute ago, Catey said:

But then would she not just have been Mary the woman who had the Virgin birth, yet she is still know as the virgin Mary, I just always thought that it implied that she retained her virginity, rough deal for Joseph, no?

I know (or think that I remember) she was not married to Joseph but betroved to him when she conceived but then he married her so just never got the virgin tag.

I had just always assumed that the virgin tag applied to before she gave birth to Jesus, not after.  It had never crossed my mind that anyone would think otherwise until I stumbled onto a somewhat fascinating yet horrifying internet debate on the topic.  Apparently, this distinction matters a great deal and there is much disagreement.  It was very interesting to watch that conversation.

[2manyKidzzz]

2 minutes ago, Catey said:

But then would she not just have been Mary the woman who had the Virgin birth, yet she is still know as the virgin Mary, I just always thought that it implied that she retained her virginity, rough deal for Joseph, no?

I know (or think that I remember) she was not married to Joseph but betroved to him when she conceived but then he married her so just never got the virgin tag.

It is difficult for me to understand this, of course, and it is to me, shrouded in mysticism of a kind. I could not speak to any certainty but just understood the virgin part to refer to God being the Father of Jesus, not Joseph. And there have been statements of other found gospels indicating the possibility of siblings for Jesus. But I am not certain of that, only of the original statement as to the virgin part. I'm sure biblical scholars would have more to say. 

[snarkopolis]

4 minutes ago, Catey said:

But then would she not just have been Mary the woman who had the Virgin birth, yet she is still know as the virgin Mary, I just always thought that it implied that she retained her virginity, rough deal for Joseph, no?

I know (or think that I remember) she was not married to Joseph but betroved to him when she conceived but then he married her so just never got the virgin tag.

According to the "official" Catholic Church doctrine, she and Joseph never did the deed or had other kids. Unofficial Catholic School talk was that the only person who believed that was the Pope.

[choralcrusader8613]

1 minute ago, snarkopolis said:

According to the "official" Catholic Church doctrine, she and Joseph never did the deed or had other kids. Unofficial Catholic School talk was that the only person who believed that was the Pope.

And my Catholic friends have told me that Mary was preserved from pain in childbirth, and all of Jesus' siblings are half-siblings from Joseph's first marriage (supposedly he married her when he was old).

[2manyKidzzz]

1 minute ago, snarkopolis said:

According to the "official" Catholic Church doctrine, she and Joseph never did the deed or had other kids. Unofficial Catholic School talk was that the only person who believed that was the Pope.

Ha Ha, for sure. And the current pope may not even believe it. In my experience, it was sort of glossed over in some respects. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I can't remember where I read it (our local paper's religion page, maybe), but I'm sure I've read that the question of whether Mary was a virgin all her life or only until after Jesus was born is a continuing bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants. Just like Catholic Bibles and Protestant Bibles have a different number of books. (Unless the Protestant Bible has the apocrypha added.) 

[2manyKidzzz]

It was all a very long time ago. That would be part of the problem I think. 

[Grimalkin]

13 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Actually, if you're referring to Catholics Mary is venerated, not worshiped.  I'm not trying to be pedantic but the distinction is important when talking about fundies because it's one of their mistaken assumptions about Catholics.  

When Catholics pray to Mary it's asking her to intercede on our behalf and pray for us.  It's no different than how Christians of all stripes pray for each other - or asking people to pray for you.  In those cases I liken it to needing a favor from a guy and after you ask him you get everyone you know, who knows him, to badger him about it so he doesn't forget and takes care of it for you.  

Asking Mary to pray for you is like when you need that same favor and you know his mom really likes you so you ask her to put in a good word, because she's in the position to do a little motherly influence on your behalf.  

I guess that's one of the great mysteries of Christianity - which kind of badgering does Jesus find more annoying.  

Tongue in cheek examples, but the distinction is real as Mary isn't worshiped because while her role is revered, she's not divine in the eyes of the RCC.  

Your points are excellent though, and I agree with you.  Many fundies and fundie lites have the view that Catholics are actually pagan.

This. Another explanation of asking Mary's intercession is Jesus did what she told him to do.At the wedding of Cana Jesus first told his mom "no" and she told him again and he did it. Jesus was a mama's boy. He obeyd a WOMAN.

10 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Re: Veneration of the Blessed Mother

The story of the Wedding at Cana and changing water into wine was taught to me as why Catholics venerate Mary.  Because it is shown in the scriptures that Jesus listens to his mother and heeds her requests...even if it is something that seems "silly" to him or out of his divine mission.  Even though often our personal prayers are not important in the grand global scheme, through the mercy and intercession of Mary (and the saints) they may still come to God's attention.

My favorite Mary saying is: When St. Peter shuts the pearly gates, the Blessed Mother opens a window.

Also, I went to a Catholic school and before we took the field for athletic events we used to yell together, "Hail Mary, Queen of Victory: PRAY FOR US!".  The non-Catholic schools always seemed somewhat spooked by this

I missed this. I posted more or less the same.

[kjmackin]

I don't know why I think this but I just assumed the Prophet named Jesus had siblings from Mary but because they probably didn't go out and do things of note so they were left out. Also wasn't the parts featuring Jesus written well after his life?

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, kjmackin said:

I don't know why I think this but I just assumed the Prophet named Jesus had siblings from Mary but because they probably didn't go out and do things of note so they were left out. Also wasn't the parts featuring Jesus written well after his life?

Jesus's siblings are mentioned by name in a couple of places in the NT.  The most important is James, who became one of the leaders of early Christianity.  

Catholic doctrine is that the Virgin Mary had only one child, Jesus.  She remains "ever Virgin." The "brothers and sisters" mentioned in the NT are either children of Joseph by a first wife or cousins that were seen as siblings. 

 

[DuggarWatch]

7 hours ago, Catey said:

The only thing about Mary that I never got was HOW/WHY she was a virgin.

She was after all married to Joseph so one would assume at some point they would share a bed, no?

But somehow she is the eternal virgin.

According to the Christian Testament, she was an unwed mother.  She was betrothed (in a courting relationship), but not married.  

11 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

Any woman who would have natural childbirth in a stable after what had to be a hell-ish ride on a donkey, has got my vote.

Actually, the ride from Nazareth to Bethlehem is very short.  http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Bethlehem-Israel

[Drala]

10 hours ago, Catey said:

The only thing about Mary that I never got was HOW/WHY she was a virgin.

She was after all married to Joseph so one would assume at some point they would share a bed, no?

But somehow she is the eternal virgin.

According to what I was taught, Mary remained a virgin because...well, after being "touched" by the Holy Spirit, how could she countenance Joseph's human touch?   He didn't try to consummate the marriage because he didn't want to compete with God for virgin territory. Since he was an old man, he didn't feel a burning desire anyway.  This is a crude way of putting it, but that's the gist of an RC explanation for Mary's perpetual virginity. (Despite bible texts that suggest otherwise.)  Some theologians in the Middle Ages even thought up scenarios for her hymen remaining intact during the birth of Jesus.  Some people are seriously committed to the notion of Mary's virginity.  It culminates in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which wasn't declared an article of faith until 1854.  The IC doctrine states that Mary was kept free of the stain of sin from the instant of HER conception by a special grace from God.  Many people think the IC refers to Jesus' conception.  it does not.   

[Alicja]

my mom was called a heretic by the priest at our old church in RCIA because she simply postulated it was possible that Mary did not remain a virgin  good times, good times.

[Ali]

10 hours ago, Catey said:

The only thing about Mary that I never got was HOW/WHY she was a virgin.

She was after all married to Joseph so one would assume at some point they would share a bed, no?

But somehow she is the eternal virgin.

Matthew 1:25 states: "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son."

I was raised Protestant and was taught she remained a virgin until after Jesus was born. I also remember references to Jesus having siblings. The book of James is traditionally believed to be written by the brother of Jesus.

[livinginthelight]

Matthew 1:18 - 25 describes Joseph finding out that Mary was pregnant, and because he was an honorable man, resolving to divorce her quietly. In other words, - according to Christians and Catholics - he was not the father. In ancient times, betrothal was as binding as marriage. Hence the word "divorce."

Jesus had at least four brothers named in the Bible: James, Joses, Simon, and Jude. Christians have always assumed these were natural born children of Mary and Joseph. Scripture talks about them not believing in Jesus when he was doing his ministry. Mark 3:21 talks of Jesus' family trying to "take him away", saying "he is out of his mind." After his resurrection though, they believed and James became a big leader in the church.

Jesus' father Joseph is not mentioned in the gospels after the incident when his parents found him teaching in the temple when Jesus was 12. It has been assumed by Christians that he died. Jesus did apparently learn his carpentry skills from him.

I hadn't known that some Catholics believe Mary never let Joseph touch her after marriage.

[Gimme a Free RV]

10 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

It is difficult for me to understand this, of course, and it is to me, shrouded in mysticism of a kind. I could not speak to any certainty but just understood the virgin part to refer to God being the Father of Jesus, not Joseph. And there have been statements of other found gospels indicating the possibility of siblings for Jesus. But I am not certain of that, only of the original statement as to the virgin part. I'm sure biblical scholars would have more to say. 

Mark 6:3 English Standard Version (ESV)

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

As a protestant, evangelical Christian, my understanding is that Mary conceived Jesus through the Holy Spirit and she was a virgin at the time she conceived.  Joseph knew this could cause him shame and had in mind to call off their engagement (as serious a thing as divorce in those times, in that culture) but after receiving a message from God in a dream, through an angel, decided to stay with her. (Matthew 1)

In Mark 6:3, it mentions at least four brothers of Jesus, presumably of Mary, since she is mentioned just before they are.  The verse mentions sisters, plural, so we can assume Jesus had at least six siblings: four brothers and two sisters.  Perhaps he had more but this verse confirms six.  So, Mary had at least seven children, presumably all from Joseph, except her firstborn, Jesus.  It is also believed (but not confirmed) that Joseph may have died during Jesus' lifetime, sometime after he was a preteen, since there is no mention of him being present with Mary during Jesus' adulthood.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I am quite pissed, I wrote a long post and it got eaten. However let's try again. The RCC preaches that Mary lived as a virgin her whole life, the theological-rhetorical reasoning for this is something along the lines of he was so holy and divine that her womb-vagina couldn't possibly host anything else ever. It doesn't make sense (or as much the young earth belief does) and it's very sexist but that's it. Most Catholics don't believe it, only the kool aid drinkers Radio Maria listeners. As for the quoted verses, the clergy love to say that adelfòs means both brother and cousin. It's a vey unlikely explanation imho, but it's legit. It's also true that in most Mediterranean cultures first grade cousins and akin to brothers. As for abstinence in marriage the RCC says that, as long as the marriage was firstly consummated and possibly poduced fruits, it's a possibility for the couple as long as both of them choose it and are fine with it. It was a more trendy preaching in the past when sex=sin, but it still is the only one form of birth control officially approved. 

[Georgiana]

1 hour ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

Mark 6:3 English Standard Version (ESV)

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

<Snipped>

Well, Simon is clearly adopted.  Only one without a J-name.  

Or maybe this is a J'Caleb situation?  First they didn't count him as a child but now they do because of publicity reasons?

[Bad Wolf]

1 minute ago, Georgiana said:

Well, Simon is clearly adopted.  Only one without a J-name.  

Or maybe this is a J'Caleb situation?  First they didn't count him as a child but now they do because of publicity reasons?

 gOoD onE. Sorry. Crazy caps..

[Catey]

2 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Well, Simon is clearly adopted.  Only one without a J-name.

I had never thought of this, I wonder if this is why they went with J names.

Sidenote: Since J is taken along with M, lets just pretend that S and I are as well. There are a lot of kids left if they were all to take a letter and stick with it by the time Josie gets her chance she is going to end up with a brood of Z kids..

[Bad Wolf]

1 minute ago, Catey said:

I had never thought of this, I wonder if this is why they went with J names.

Sidenote: Since J is taken along with M, lets just pretend that S and I are as well. There are a lot of kids left if they were all to take a letter and stick with it by the time Josie gets her chance she is going to end up with a brood of Z kids..

The kid saddled with X will have fun.

[Lizzybet]

On January 17, 2016 at 4:54 PM, socalrules said:

At mass this morning, the Gospel was about Jesus turning the water into wine. I would love to have a conversation with a fundy about it. Wine, not grape juice, Mr. Keller. 

Of course it was grape juice. Fresh fruit juice would keep SOOO well in that climate.

I mean, really.