Bates Family Part 7

[nokidsmom]

45 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

About Erin turning down the scholarship.  For her individual circumstances, I don't think it matters where she went to school.  Even though Clown is an unaccredited Bible college, it was a good fit for her, and she's actually using her degree in a way that fits her life and allows her to raise Carson without putting him in daycare (not sure what Chad actually does for a living).

She's got 2 (maybe 3) albums recorded (and didn't the Christmas one make the top 100 of the category in iTunes?), teaches lessons, and performs at churches, weddings, etc.  Now I don't personally know any music majors, but I know of other arts majors who are working at Starbucks.  Will she be the next Taylor Swift?  No, but I don't think she wants to be.

I don't think that Erin ever wanted to work full-time or much outside the home.  There's not too many fundies I'd say have an ideal situation/circumstance, but I think she does.

Agreed that for her individual circumstances, going to Crown appears to have worked out for her as far as we can see.   However, we don't know what actually transpired when she was offered the scholarship.  Does she resent it?  Does she not?  We will never know mainly because whatever resentment she felt (or feels) will never be expressed to anyone, even herself.  This is not saying that she was / is resentful, but if she is, there's no way that she would ever acknowledge it.  Just the same if she was harassed by Gothard.  And yes, she is totally his "type" btw.

This is a young woman who was raised primarily to be a wife and mom.    Anything else is "optional" in life.  It is a shame to see someone with such talent be forced into that box and not be allowed to fully explore it.   And frankly, the curricula at Crown would leave out a lot of information that would be considered "defrauding" in terms of music history and styles.    She would only be taught what would be considered acceptable in their framework and believe me there's a lot in music that would not pass muster there.  

 

[quiversR4hunting]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

Having done legal work representing mega churches... Let's just say I don't want my kids hanging out at them.  It is my firm (though perhaps overly protective and paranoid) prejudice, that youth programs in churches are havens for predators.  That's an unfair prejudice when applied to the vast, vast majority of people involved in these programs, but I don't allow my kids to be left alone with people I don't know.  Period.  It takes one effed up person with access to ruin a kid's life.  NOPE.  And there is no way for me to keep track of or background check or otherwise vet EVERY person who might have access to my kids in a huge church youth program.  And then, on top of sanctioned at-facility activities, they are always organizing outside activities chaperoned by random adults.  These outside activities are a breeding ground for inappropriate behavior.  I have seen it happen and know the details.  I find it all very, very unsettling.   

so... My kids are heathens.

 

The one thing the Catholic church learned from the sex abuse scandal is that every. single. person. that works with youth at the church must be virtus trained and have a background check done yearly. ( http://www.virtus.org/virtus/ ) I am virtus trained and I still couldn't bring my girl scout troop to the church to help with the St. Vincent DePaul Society because my co-lead is not virtus trained. She had a background check through girl scouts but she needed the virtus and if any of the parents came with us they would have had to have both done too.

With all that said, something could still happen but training and background checks help lower the likelihood of a predator gaining access. You are completely right, it only takes one effed up person to ruin a kid's life.

[missegeno]

Gil and Kelly care about money more than people. They aren't loyal to Gothard becuase Gil was happy to dump him the second he became an liability. Gil remained loyal to the money of IBLP and is doing his best to protect that and I don't think he cares one bit who he hurts in protecting that money.  I don't think Gil and Kelly see the humanity of their children anymore than the Duggar parents. Remember Kelly is the one who when asked, couldn't remember their names. 

Gil and Kelly are just good at put up a facade of warmth and happiness. If you look behind that you see parents who view their children as objects they collected, not actually humans. Jim Bob and MIchelle were never good at pretending they cared, while Gil and Kelly are. 

Good points. Maybe that's what I was picking up on. Not necessarily a human connection, but an ability to convincingly pretend there is one. However it comes about, Duggar empathy is a known quantity, where Bates empathy takes some guessing. How would you ever know where you stand with someone who treats you mixed levels of empathic connection? Anecdotally, I think most people would let their guard down upon a really nice time together, only to be shat on the next time it's convenient for Gil.

[grandmadugger]

3 hours ago, Diana said:

Thats your opinion. For me the Duggars are 10 times more boring. I could never watch their tvshow because they bored me to death. I find the Bateses a lot more interesting, i actually watched all their episodes.

I'm not talking about the shows.  Much of what is discussed on the Duggar forum is what they are doing in social media.  The Bates just aren't doing the dumb shit that the Duggars are doing publicly.

[Coconut Flan]

About a Bates subforum, we aren't going to be setting one up at this time.

The word according to Curious spoken in the Specularium: http://www.freejinger.org/topic/25371-specularium-part-10-we-are-not-all-colorists/?page=6#comment-1100005

Quote

No it's not (by the admin team at least).  I don't read the Bateseses thread, so this is the first I've heard of it being a suggestion/request.

It's not happening.  People are free to start more than 1 Bateseses thread in snark if they don't like the "megathread."

 

[Kak]

2 hours ago, elliha said:

As to sending there daugther to Gothard, don't you just think that he knew his patterns and felt that his daughters would not be an interesting target? It might sound weird but his very insight into this person might have been what made him feel safe to let them go. Reading what I have Gothard seems to have targeted very insecure and vulnerable women with a certain look, perhaps Gil felt that his daugther were not his type and felt sure that if he would be wrong they would call him and he would be able to withdrawn them before something really bad happened? It might not be the best line of thinking for a father but it is one I can see him making. 

It does sound weird.  I struggle to find justification for why any father would knowingly let his daughters associate with a rapist or pervert or whatever they believed he was at that time. 

[elliha]

13 minutes ago, Kak said:

It does sound weird.  I struggle to find justification for why any father would knowingly let his daughters associate with a rapist or pervert or whatever they believed he was at that time. 

I am not justifying it at all but I think it is a possible line of thinking from Gil if he also believed that taking part of that training was good for the children. Most were never even close to be targeted.

[Kak]

32 minutes ago, elliha said:

I am not justifying it at all but I think it is a possible line of thinking from Gil if he also believed that taking part of that training was good for the children. Most were never even close to be targeted.

Maybe he did know they weren't going to be close enough to BG to be affected. I don't know about that. I, for one, would find it even more disgusting if he kept his daughters away from BG knowing the danger, while allowing other girls to be put in that same danger. But I don't know about any of that. I don't think we should speculate about this stuff.

[ladyaudley]

does what you need to work with kids vary from state to state? In Scotland you can't do anything with children or vulnerable adults without a PVG (protection of vulnerable groups) approval, which is done by a central agency. Teachers, scout leaders, our church's crèche team... All PVGed. Certain types of conviction means you can't get one anymore.

[singsingsing]

Just now, ladyaudley said:

does what you need to work with kids vary from state to state? In Scotland you can't do anything with children or vulnerable adults without a PVG (protection of vulnerable groups) approval, which is done by a central agency. Teachers, scout leaders, our church's crèche team... All PVGed. Certain types of conviction means you can't get one anymore.

Same in Canada, but it's called the vulnerable sector clearance. Then if your name and/or birthdate is a close hit to that of a pardoned sex offender, you have to be fingerprinted as well.

[ladyaudley]

Just now, ladyaudley said: does what you need to work with kids vary from state to state? In Scotland you can't do anything with children or vulnerable adults without a PVG (protection of vulnerable groups) approval, which is done by a central agency. Teachers, scout leaders, our church's crèche team... All PVGed. Certain types of conviction means you can't get one anymore.

Same in Canada, but it's called the vulnerable sector clearance. Then if your name and/or birthdate is a close hit to that of a pardoned sex offender, you have to be fingerprinted as well.

Does it cost £25 (51 Canadian $) a pop, too, and you have to get a new one for every new job that requires it?

Money gripes aside, it's a much better system than just using criminal records, I think.

[grandmadugger]

RE Erin's Scholarship

I never once believed that the reason Erin didn't go was money. I don't think they had the money to cover what the scholarship didn't cover.

[inabauers]

14 hours ago, Snarkle said:

My parents lived in Grand Rapids for over ten years and my (secular) Jewish husband used to dread visiting them there because of the overtly Christian-ness of the area.  There is even a whole section devoted to religion in the Thursday(?) Grand Rapids paper.  My parents, die-hard Lutherans, saw people leave their church over time to join the non-denominational mega-churches in the area because that's where the kids/teens were sucked in to playing sports on the team leagues or participating in other church-sponsored activities.  Some churches pretty much wanted to monopolize the free time of families by offering so many activities (sports clubs, teen groups, etc.), there was no reason to go anywhere else.  We are Unitarian-Univeralist and my now teen son used to get a little freaked out by the sheer number of teens wearing Christian t-shirts (many with fake blood and/or crosses and/or crowns of thorns, nearly all with Bible verses or witty Christian sayings) at the local mall - to the point that he started counting the number he saw and pointing them out everywhere.  And there is an incredibly healthy number of Christian homeschoolers there, along with several Christian colleges.  We loved the local museum and some of the other things the town offered, but we are somewhat glad my parents moved back to Wisconsin where it's mostly Lutherans and Catholics in their neck of the woods and my husband feels a little less overwhelmed.  (I have nothing against any religion, but when it's so overt it can be quite uncomfortable.)

Yeah, I can see that. Although I've only been to Grand Rapids once, I stopped by during ArtFest and I've mentioned it before, but I saw anti-abortion protestors complete with the aborted fetuses on posters at some crossing, and most of them seemed to be young, around my age. And even here on my campus we have a couple of overzealous protestors (including one particular problem man who my friends call the Preacher Screecher). I'm originally from the Metro Detroit area, and while I've seen protestors, I haven't seen many that I can remember in Detroit who were so religiously based (of course I'm sure they happen, but I don't remember any that stand out like these ones)

[EmmieJ]

17 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

And some of us are liberal, social justice Catholics!

I love my liberal, social justice Catholic friends --- and they don't mind that I'm basically a heathen at this point.

[lascuba]

I don't know music programs, but doesn't the fact that Erin was accepted to attend a real university mean that she had to have applied/auditioned in the first place? I can't imagine that she'd be considered so talented by experts (her playing at weddings is painful to my ears) that she'd be approached instead of her doing the approaching. So I find it hard to believe that Gil and Kelly didn't apply a ton of pressure to get her to go to Clown instead. Sure, it seemed to have worked out for her in the end considering the life she wants, but that's out of sheer dumb luck. It's not like going to Clown gave her much of an option.

[quiversR4hunting]

19 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

I love my liberal, social justice Catholic friends --- and they don't mind that I'm basically a heathen at this point.

I am guessing your liberal, social justice catholic friends don't think you are a heathen! If they are like me, they would qualify you as "a liberal social justice friend that doesn't go to church but who cares because that is your business!" or otherwise known as "a friend."

[maple802]

20 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I don't know music programs, but doesn't the fact that Erin was accepted to attend a real university mean that she had to have applied/auditioned in the first place? I can't imagine that she'd be considered so talented by experts (her playing at weddings is painful to my ears) that she'd be approached instead of her doing the approaching. So I find it hard to believe that Gil and Kelly didn't apply a ton of pressure to get her to go to Clown instead. Sure, it seemed to have worked out for her in the end considering the life she wants, but that's out of sheer dumb luck. It's not like going to Clown gave her much of an option.

Sometimes scholarship $$ is offered contingent upon acceptance to the University and the Music Program.  I have several friends who majored in music education and/or performance at 4-year public and private universities and the acceptance process is two-part.  First, you have to be accepted by the college/university just like any other student.  Most schools will admit you into their college of arts and sciences (or equivalent) as an undeclared major.  Second, you have to pass a juried audition for the music school.  If you don't make it through the audition process for the music school, it usually doesn't affect the school's decision to admit you, you'll just have to decide on a different major.

[PennySycamore]

13 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I don't know music programs, but doesn't the fact that Erin was accepted to attend a real university mean that she had to have applied/auditioned in the first place? I can't imagine that she'd be considered so talented by experts (her playing at weddings is painful to my ears) that she'd be approached instead of her doing the approaching. So I find it hard to believe that Gil and Kelly didn't apply a ton of pressure to get her to go to Clown instead. Sure, it seemed to have worked out for her in the end considering the life she wants, but that's out of sheer dumb luck. It's not like going to Clown gave her much of an option.

We don't know, really, the whole story of Erin's scholarship at UT.  IIRC, her piano teacher was on faculty there and may have merely suggested that Erin *could* easily get a scholarship rather than she was actually offered a scholarship, much less a full ride scholarship to UT.  She (or rather Gil) decided that she wouldn't go lest she have to sit next to someone with green hair.

My daughter went to U of Memphis to study viola with the viola teacher that she's studied under at the SC Governor's School for the Arts.  She had a fair amount of money that she'd gotten as a settlement from being bitten by a vicious dog when she was three* and she also got some funds from Tennessee due to her high ACT score.  The state of Tennessee was, at that time, pretty generous with money for highly qualified students. 

Btw, my eighth grade English teacher had a something of a green cast to her hair and that was 45 years ago. Mrs Scott was no youngster either, but middle-aged.  She did have a husband with a perfect name for an English teacher's husband:  Walter Scott.

*My daughter was bitten on the face by a dog that had already bitten several other kids.  She did have emergency surgery at the time she was bitten, but faced the possibility that she might need more later on.  Hence the settlement.  She chose not to have surgery as her scar is not very noticeable.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, ladyaudley said:

does what you need to work with kids vary from state to state? In Scotland you can't do anything with children or vulnerable adults without a PVG (protection of vulnerable groups) approval, which is done by a central agency. Teachers, scout leaders, our church's crèche team... All PVGed. Certain types of conviction means you can't get one anymore.

I don't know for sure. I know my sister and brothers-in-law all needed to be fingerprinted and underwent background checks before they were allowed to work in their schools. 

[FormerlyFundyLite]

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 11:14 AM, apple1 said:

Actually, TX is somewhat of a haven for cults. Check out Church of Wells - who have been permitted to pretty much take over the community of Wells, TX with almost no restrictions - and who were not held to any accountability in the death of a newborn, and who allowed the statute of limitations to expire on said death.

A friend of a friend's daughter (and the daughter's boyfriend) were apparently brainwashed and...abducted is probably a strong word, but went with some Church of Wells folks who were protesting at the recent Passion Conference in Houston. The mother said that after skipping the last day of the conference and conversing about Scripture/being brainwashed for 8 hours, her daughter and her boyfriend were led to Wells and told that if they left, they would lose their newfound "salvation". Fortunately, the mother and father were able to convince the young woman and her boyfriend to leave, but the Church of Wells folks have continued to pursue them (e-mails, facebook, etc.) to the point of actually showing up at their door six hours away from Wells, at which point the Sherriff was called.

I don't have any more details, and considering my friend's friends are the victims, I'm not going to pursue it any further, but I thought the FJ crowd would be interested to know the level of aggressiveness that CoW is exercising these days.

[Gimme a Free RV]

42 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I don't know music programs, but doesn't the fact that Erin was accepted to attend a real university mean that she had to have applied/auditioned in the first place? I can't imagine that she'd be considered so talented by experts (her playing at weddings is painful to my ears) that she'd be approached instead of her doing the approaching. So I find it hard to believe that Gil and Kelly didn't apply a ton of pressure to get her to go to Clown instead. Sure, it seemed to have worked out for her in the end considering the life she wants, but that's out of sheer dumb luck. It's not like going to Clown gave her much of an option.

Where I work, the head piano instructor travels far and wide to recruit great piano students who haven't yet though of attending our school.  It behooves him to bring in top talent because, in doing so, it makes his studio all the more desirable to study in, gives him and the school a great reputation, and his students take top honors in state and national competitions.  Kind of like athletic recruiting.

Someone might have indicated Erin's name to a UT music professor and recruiters might have made it a point to find an event she was playing in to listen to her.

That's just one possible scenario that wouldn't be too far fetched.

[GreyhoundFan]

3 hours ago, maple802 said:

Sometimes scholarship $$ is offered contingent upon acceptance to the University and the Music Program.  I have several friends who majored in music education and/or performance at 4-year public and private universities and the acceptance process is two-part.  First, you have to be accepted by the college/university just like any other student.  Most schools will admit you into their college of arts and sciences (or equivalent) as an undeclared major.  Second, you have to pass a juried audition for the music school.  If you don't make it through the audition process for the music school, it usually doesn't affect the school's decision to admit you, you'll just have to decide on a different major.

Yes, this is true. I wanted to be a music major. Keyword: wanted. I had already been accepted to the University of my choosing via Early Decision. I went to the jury and didn't get accepted to the music department. The head of the department said it was the only time it had happened that way in his tenure. Usually students got into the music department and the music department had to influence the University to accept them into the school, especially for very talented and sought-after performers. He worked with me to be have an undeclared major, but take all the regular music major classes and re-audition at the end of freshman year. I was also included in all communiques from the department. It made the sting of not being accepted a little less painful.

[maple802]

22 minutes ago, GreyhoundFan said:

Yes, this is true. I wanted to be a music major. Keyword: wanted. I had already been accepted to the University of my choosing via Early Decision. I went to the jury and didn't get accepted to the music department. The head of the department said it was the only time it had happened that way in his tenure. Usually students got into the music department and the music department had to influence the University to accept them into the school, especially for very talented and sought-after performers. He worked with me to be have an undeclared major, but take all the regular music major classes and re-audition at the end of freshman year. I was also included in all communiques from the department. It made the sting of not being accepted a little less painful.

Voice or instrument? 

[vienna]

6 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

I'm not talking about the shows.  Much of what is discussed on the Duggar forum is what they are doing in social media.  The Bates just aren't doing the dumb shit that the Duggars are doing publicly.

From the shows and reading Kelly  log before bub started I have to agree: They not only seem much nicer but also healthier in a mental way. The kids all act and speak in a way that seems independent and although they all believe what they believe I think they are very different from the Duggars. For example when I compare the interaction of the bates couples I see no real signs of submission as with the duggars. Of course both families believe the man is the head and so on but what this believe means for the actual relationship between a couple can vary a lot. 

 

[GreyhoundFan]

1 minute ago, maple802 said:

Voice or instrument? 

Well, I tried to be a clarinet major, which was a non-starter. When I started in marching band (the school has a nationally known marching band), the assistant director said, "can't you play ANYTHING else?" There were way too many clarinet players. He told me that I wouldn't be cut if I learned how to play the euphonium. I started out just holding it, but eventually learned to play well enough to make two college All-American marching bands, one for the Statue of Liberty Centennial Celebration in New York in 1986 and the other for the US Constitution Bicentennial Celebration in Philadelphia in 1987. It was so much more fun playing low brass, since there were fewer of us.

What is your voice or instrument?