Bates Family Part 7

[Alicja]

14 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

They actually live in Dewitt, which I know is close to St Johns.  The middle of Michigan have a lot of German/Irish decedents. Lots of Catholics. And most of the super conservative in that area are Mennonite. The really conservative part of Michigan is Grand Rapids, Holland, & Grand Haven. There was a cult in Allegan county and then The House of David in the Benton Harbor area, but like you it seems most of the conservatives in the State seem to be "normal" evangelical or tradtional religious republicans. 

the west side of the state is very much Dutch reform. my socialist Polish grandfather feels so out of place in GR 

its really scary that ATI is in Michigan. I thought we were too close to Canada for these shenanigans

[Snarkle]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the dour Dutch Reform roots of many West Michiganders!

And Quivers, YES, they are very in-your-face about recruiting youth.  I am teaching our UU church's class for middle schoolers this year where the kids visit different houses of workships and learn about several dozen faiths (they went to a Jewish temple last week, next up is a Buddhist temple - my favorite is the Hindu temple!).  The kids went to an African-American Baptist church in September, but in December they went to a local mega-church (which are somewhat thankfully still few and far between here in the Northeast) to see about Fundamentalism.  I taught that particular week of lessons (we do a week or two of prep work with the kids with info/background about the religion/faith before they visit the place) about Fundamentalism (and why yes, I DID talk about the Duggars - thanks FreeJinger!) and the kids were pretty turned off, other than asking to watch an episode of 19KAC because they wanted to see the wacky family show.  (Sigh.)  Anyway, my son did the program a few years ago but did not get to go to the mega-church because they didn't offer that field trip then.  However, another parent told me that for most field trips the kids are respectful and interested in learning more about the religion, but on the trip to the mega-church, a lot of them would come back wanting to join that church!  Apparently their offerings for tweens and teens is so spot on and so slickly marketed, even a lot of our mildly Christian, Jewish, or atheist youth were ready to sign up.  That's when I knew that as much as I loathe Fundamentalism, it scares me more how good they are at appealing to youth and sucking them in.

[missegeno]

Milk before meat. Ugh. Church marketing programs are so skeevy. A lot of those mega churches are businesses more than anything else. When I was younger, I went to one such program because all my friends went. We would show up, sneak off to smoke weed, then come back and play games. Then they would have a quick bible thing and give us pizza. I saw right through it, but I still went because weed and pizza. That is, until my religion loathing mother found out that I was being exposed to the bible and forbid me from returning.

[formergothardite]

12 hours ago, andagoat said:

To me, the biggest difference between the Duggars and the Bates is it seems the Duggar kids's spirits are broken.  The Bates kids have personalities and spirit.  All we really get from the Duggar kids is the older daughters THs and they have Stepford Wife personalities, which is none.  The older Duggar boys don't seem to car much about the show.  The Bates kids all have personalities and some are quite spirited.  It also helps that Kelly has a personality herself, unlike overmedicated sweet talking Michelle.

I don't think their spirits are broken anymore than the Bates, I just think a lot of them are totally over their parents exploiting them on television. Give the Bates more time and we will most likely start seeing this in them. To me the Bates are the IBLP Stepford kids. None of them have shown a single ounce of rebellion against the system while the Duggar kids have rolled their eyes and looked totally over it. 

The most interesting thing to me about the Bates is that they have managed to convince people that they are different than the Duggars. They have magic or something.  I don't think we need a whole forum to discuss them, though. I can't figure out what would be in it. 

[accountingstar]

Sneak Peak of this week's episode:

Gil has an addiction to sweet tea. Lawson has his own truck. I love all of the drinking straw wrappings on the floor of his truck. Lawson, do you have a soda addiction? Why are the bottles of water under the bed? Gil is wearing his knee brace.

[nokidsmom]

I really don't want a Bates forum mainly because I would be bombing it with posts over how they are NOT that different or better than the Duggars.

[missegeno]

To me, the biggest difference between the Duggars and the Bates is it seems the Duggar kids's spirits are broken.  The Bates kids have personalities and spirit.  All we really get from the Duggar kids is the older daughters THs and they have Stepford Wife personalities, which is none.  The older Duggar boys don't seem to car much about the show.  The Bates kids all have personalities and some are quite spirited.  It also helps that Kelly has a personality herself, unlike overmedicated sweet talking Michelle.

I see that difference and it really makes me uneasy to watch the Bates because of it. The Duggars don't acknowledge the humanity within their children, it's just a frumper farm to them and there is no warmth. The parents are just too detached to connect to the human aspects of their children. So when their children are hurt (cough cough molested cough cough), they aren't in touch with human feelings enough to comprehend the depth of it. But the Bates do seem to have some semblance of an interpersonal connection between parents and kids, at the very least just in the seeming acknowledgment that kids are people too (I'm not sure JB realizes this about anyone other than himself). With the Duggars, I can blame atrocities on ignorant robotic avoidance. But to explain how Gil was willing to send his daughters to a molester, that's a lot more nuanced. If he is capable of feeling empathy for his kids, how and why does he selectively turn it on and off? And how much of this is an actual choice that he makes? It's like he turns empathy on and off based on his desired outcomes. Which makes me uneasy. I don't know if this makes sense, but I'll try to rephrase later if not.

I also find the Bates to be much more boring than the Duggars. BUB is just a show about a big rude family. The Duggars are a trainwreck.

[formergothardite]

Gil and Kelly care about money more than people. They aren't loyal to Gothard becuase Gil was happy to dump him the second he became an liability. Gil remained loyal to the money of IBLP and is doing his best to protect that and I don't think he cares one bit who he hurts in protecting that money.  I don't think Gil and Kelly see the humanity of their children anymore than the Duggar parents. Remember Kelly is the one who when asked, couldn't remember their names. 

Gil and Kelly are just good at put up a facade of warmth and happiness. If you look behind that you see parents who view their children as objects they collected, not actually humans. Jim Bob and MIchelle were never good at pretending they cared, while Gil and Kelly are. 

[elliha]

3 minutes ago, missegeno said:

I see that difference and it really makes me uneasy to watch the Bates because of it. The Duggars don't acknowledge the humanity within their children, it's just a frumper farm to them and there is no warmth. The parents are just too detached to connect to the human aspects of their children. So when their children are hurt (cough cough molested cough cough), they aren't in touch with human feelings enough to comprehend the depth of it. But the Bates do seem to have some semblance of an interpersonal connection between parents and kids, at the very least just in the seeming acknowledgment that kids are people too (I'm not sure JB realizes this about anyone other than himself). With the Duggars, I can blame atrocities on ignorant robotic avoidance. But to explain how Gil was willing to send his daughters to a molester, that's a lot more nuanced. If he is capable of feeling empathy for his kids, how and why does he selectively turn it on and off? And how much of this is an actual choice that he makes? It's like he turns empathy on and off based on his desired outcomes. Which makes me uneasy. I don't know if this makes sense, but I'll try to rephrase later if not.

I also find the Bates to be much more boring than the Duggars. BUB is just a show about a big rude family. The Duggars are a trainwreck.

As to sending there daugther to Gothard, don't you just think that he knew his patterns and felt that his daughters would not be an interesting target? It might sound weird but his very insight into this person might have been what made him feel safe to let them go. Reading what I have Gothard seems to have targeted very insecure and vulnerable women with a certain look, perhaps Gil felt that his daugther were not his type and felt sure that if he would be wrong they would call him and he would be able to withdrawn them before something really bad happened? It might not be the best line of thinking for a father but it is one I can see him making. 

[JMO]

I actually think Erin was a prime target for Gothard.  Pretty blonde with curls.  Eager and willing to please.  Quiet and subservient.  While she doesn't seem to have any deep insecurities or history of being abused, otherwise she'd be a perfect target. 

[QuiverDance]

Quote

Milk before meat. Ugh. Church marketing programs are so skeevy. A lot of those mega churches are businesses more than anything else. When I was younger, I went to one such program because all my friends went. We would show up, sneak off to smoke weed, then come back and play games. Then they would have a quick bible thing and give us pizza. I saw right through it, but I still went because weed and pizza. That is, until my religion loathing mother found out that I was being exposed to the bible and forbid me from returning.

Having done legal work representing mega churches... Let's just say I don't want my kids hanging out at them.  It is my firm (though perhaps overly protective and paranoid) prejudice, that youth programs in churches are havens for predators.  That's an unfair prejudice when applied to the vast, vast majority of people involved in these programs, but I don't allow my kids to be left alone with people I don't know.  Period.  It takes one effed up person with access to ruin a kid's life.  NOPE.  And there is no way for me to keep track of or background check or otherwise vet EVERY person who might have access to my kids in a huge church youth program.  And then, on top of sanctioned at-facility activities, they are always organizing outside activities chaperoned by random adults.  These outside activities are a breeding ground for inappropriate behavior.  I have seen it happen and know the details.  I find it all very, very unsettling.   

so... My kids are heathens.

 

[formergothardite]

I'm not sure that Gil and Kelly wouldn't shame a daughter into being quiet if she did try to speak out. It would ruin their image, risk Gil losing his position in IBLP and put Gil more at risk in this lawsuit. I think they would react just like the Duggars and try and cover it up. 

[Arete]

Gil's older daughters are exactly the look that perv Gothard goes for.  You also have to remember that before they were on the Duggar show, the Bates were NOBODIES in the IBLP/ATI world.  Those girls could have easily fallen prey to Gothard.  There was no way anyone sane parent would risk that exposure, but Gil did.

And people should never forget, Gil kept Erin from accepting a full ride scholarship in music at the University of Tennessee.  A real school that awards real degrees, not that Clown College bullshit.  Tell me again why Gil is a better father than Jim Bob?

[QuiverDance]

Quote

As to sending there daugther to Gothard, don't you just think that he knew his patterns and felt that his daughters would not be an interesting target? It might sound weird but his very insight into this person might have been what made him feel safe to let them go. Reading what I have Gothard seems to have targeted very insecure and vulnerable women with a certain look, perhaps Gil felt that his daugther were not his type and felt sure that if he would be wrong they would call him and he would be able to withdrawn them before something really bad happened? It might not be the best line of thinking for a father but it is one I can see him making. 

I actually can see him going through that thought process.   It's like... you know the guy's a slimeball, but only to damaged girls who are impure because of their damage, so he can't mess them up any worse, right?  It's pretty sick.  But Gil Bates is clearly a creepy MoFo.  You know how you just get a VIBE from some people that is off-putting and sets off your ick radar?  He's got that vibe, IMO.

[Gimme a Free RV]

3 minutes ago, AreteJo said:

Gil's older daughters are exactly the look that perv Gothard goes for.  You also have to remember that before they were on the Duggar show, the Bates were NOBODIES in the IBLP/ATI world.  Those girls could have easily fallen prey to Gothard.  There was no way anyone sane parent would risk that exposure, but Gil did.

And people should never forget, Gil kept Erin from accepting a full ride scholarship in music at the University of Tennessee.  A real school that awards real degrees, not that Clown College bullshit.  Tell me again why Gil is a better father than Jim Bob?

If they had allowed Erin to go to UT on a performance scholarship, they needn't have worried about her exposure to vile, ungodly influences.  In classes, even if she sat beside someone with green hair, she'd be too busy listening and taking notes to be tainted by the world and in her "spare" time, she'd be holed up in a practice room, banging away for hours on a Steinway.  Little time for socialization when you're a serious performance major.

[formergothardite]

 Gothard also targeted the daughter of Alfred. Nothing has come out as to having happened, but Alfred admits that Gothard picked his "pretty" daughter to be in a "special" position even though the "ugly" one was qualified to do the job. 

[lascuba]

I think the only real difference between the families--or more accurately, the difference between their public personas--is that Jim Bob and Michelle decided early on what they wanted their public image to be and made sure their kids stuck with that whenever the cameras were on. And since JB and Michelle are idiots, they chose to be these "perfectly" behaved automatons who thought it was cute to do everything together at all times and have the whole family say all the same exact phrases and buzzwords. So what looks like lack of personality compared to the Bates is just trained behavior for the cameras that's really hard to break. It's almost a Pavlovian response at this point--cameras on = lights off.

Actually, there's possibly one other difference...while there's still a lot of hypocrisy, I think JB/Michelle do sincerely try to follow what they believe is right, as wrong and dangerous as those beliefs are, while Gil and Kelly consider their own interests firsts. No way in hell would Gill have told anyone in his Church if one of his sons had molested his daughters. He and Kelly would have locked that shit down, with only the perpetrator and the victims knowing what happened.

[NeverAFundie]

I lived (and practiced law) in Grand Rapids for six years before leaving 10 years ago.  I found the area to be crushingly homogeneous, and the conservatism was oppressive.  I completely agree about the primary source of the religious conservatism being the Dutch Reformed churches (literally one on every corner) and the mega churches (Mars Hill in particular).  My first year there brought the 2000 presidential election, and the ridiculousness that passed back and forth (almost always addressed to "All Attorneys"--and there were 150 of us) could not be believed.  Of 150 attorneys, MAYBE 20 of us were liberal.  I was very, very glad to get out.  I have lived and worked in five different midwestern states, and west Michigan was by far the most conservative.  It's such a beautiful area--perfect for a week in the summer.  But six years was more than enough for me.  The fundamentalism that exists there is, in some ways, more dangerous, because it "looks" so normal on the outside (as opposed to frumper wearers who never let their children see the light of day).

[formergothardite]

Gil and Kelly started off with the same "perfect" image like the Duggars but were smart enough to know when to change. I do think that in general Gil and Kelly are smarter, because like lascuba said, no way Gil and Kelly would have told anyone. They also wouldn't have done an interview like the Duggars did. They know how to read what the public wants to see and then give them that. 

[roxy7]

That phrase of breaking a child's spirit has bothered me so much. I heard that term my entire life because of a family member believing that was how you raised kids. It goes against every thing I believe in as a parent or a human being. But I believe that is the major difference in the two families. They both subscribe to the same theory in discipline but I believe that there is a major difference in how it's applied. This is obviously purely speculation on my part and based on my own experience. You can parent and discipline from because I said so standpoint or you are being disciplined because of x, y and z. The results of these two styles can make a huge difference in a child's personality. With the first the child lives out of fear of the wrath of a parent and the second can produce kids that are able to make decisions on their own based on what they learned from the discipline. Now with that being said both families are teaching their kids some disturbing things. In my opinion both of them are abusing their kids with their Pearl family methods and expecting them to stay within the party lines. I could be way off base but I'm coming from my own experiences as a child and how it has affected the way I treat my kids.

Seriously that term of breaking a child's spirit literally breaks my heart because it describes so many broken kids and adults.

Edit because I had heart instead of break

[Screamapillar]

51 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

I really don't want a Bates forum mainly because I would be bombing it with posts over how they are NOT that different or better than the Duggars.

Agreed. Even in this thread I have to restrain myself from posting simply "GIL BATES IS ON THE IBLP BOARD" ad nauseam.

[pnwgypsy]

I watched season 3 ep 1 last night & I thought it was ironic that they spent the first part of the episode harping on immodest wedding gowns only to later go to Kelly's sisters wedding & surprise! What is she wearing....a sleeveless gown. Also surprised the guys were able to come along for dress shopping. I'm hoping we get an up close look at how they trashed the bodice of Michael's dress in pursuit of modesty.

[nokidsmom]

18 minutes ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

If they had allowed Erin to go to UT on a performance scholarship, they needn't have worried about her exposure to vile, ungodly influences.  In classes, even if she sat beside someone with green hair, she'd be too busy listening and taking notes to be tainted by the world and in her "spare" time, she'd be holed up in a practice room, banging away for hours on a Steinway.  Little time for socialization when you're a serious performance major.

Whatever the details were regarding Erin's scholarship, it appears she did have an opportunity to attend a real, accredited university, earning a real accredited degree that would have gotten her further in the music world than this Crown college stuff.  I find it to be a true testimony of Erin's parents awfulness that she was not allowed to go.   And make no mistake, she was not allowed to go.  Yes, Kelly spun it as being her choice, therefore the whole "green hair" thing but given the controlling family dynamics, Erin's so-called "choice" would be so heavily influenced by her parents to the point it would not be a choice at all.  Even if she really wanted to go, she would have been talked out of it, scared out of it, and failing that, told flat out that she wasn't going.   Gil and Kelly were so keen on keeping her from being defrauded (read: out of their control) that they said no to an great opportunity for their talented daughter to expand that talent and increase her knowledge, all because perhaps that knowledge might include her realizing that what a lot of her parents told her all her life was wrong.    

And as someone who studied music at the college level, believe me she would have been too busy to worry about fellow students with green hair.   I was not a performance major, actually music was my minor, but I sat alongside those performance students and it involved a LOT of work.  

 

 

[PennySycamore]

32 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Having done legal work representing mega churches... Let's just say I don't want my kids hanging out at them.  It is my firm (though perhaps overly protective and paranoid) prejudice, that youth programs in churches are havens for predators.  That's an unfair prejudice when applied to the vast, vast majority of people involved in these programs, but I don't allow my kids to be left alone with people I don't know.  Period.  It takes one effed up person with access to ruin a kid's life.  NOPE.  And there is no way for me to keep track of or background check or otherwise vet EVERY person who might have access to my kids in a huge church youth program.  And then, on top of sanctioned at-facility activities, they are always organizing outside activities chaperoned by random adults.  These outside activities are a breeding ground for inappropriate behavior.  I have seen it happen and know the details.  I find it all very, very unsettling.   

so... My kids are heathens.

 

My husband used to go this this one church where the "youth minster" was the son of the pastor.  This youth minster person was also on the sex offender registry, for what I don't know. It wasn't something where he was tagged as a threat to kids, though.  Maybe he was just arrested for cruising at one of the local parks. 

[19 cats and counting]

About Erin turning down the scholarship.  For her individual circumstances, I don't think it matters where she went to school.  Even though Clown is an unaccredited Bible college, it was a good fit for her, and she's actually using her degree in a way that fits her life and allows her to raise Carson without putting him in daycare (not sure what Chad actually does for a living).

She's got 2 (maybe 3) albums recorded (and didn't the Christmas one make the top 100 of the category in iTunes?), teaches lessons, and performs at churches, weddings, etc.  Now I don't personally know any music majors, but I know of other arts majors who are working at Starbucks.  Will she be the next Taylor Swift?  No, but I don't think she wants to be.

I don't think that Erin ever wanted to work full-time or much outside the home.  There's not too many fundies I'd say have an ideal situation/circumstance, but I think she does.