All Things Dillard - Part 5

[lascuba]

I'm a little shocked that anyone here is okay with people trying to force their religion on others. I get like setting up a booth and explaining it if people approach you, but handing out tracks and telling randoms they are going to hell is bothersome. FormerGothardite's example is a good one too, that's absolutely shitty that people do that to children.

I remember people used to stand outside my high school and try to hand us bibles, and they only left when other students loudly proclaimed they were using them for "rolling paper."

And who the fuck likes people showing up at their door? That's the worst.

I think people who think it's okay are those who have trouble with big picture concepts in general. Sure, an individual who harasses people with their Bibles seems innocuous enough, but multiply that by several thousand, in several countries, backed by the US government in one form or the other? That's a very deliberate strategy those individuals are taking part in, with huge long term consequences, and those individuals don't deserve a pass just because they might genuinely believe that they're spreading the love of Jesus to people.

[nolongerIFBx]

No, it wouldn't be more accurate to say that. Racism is systemic and is built into the very fabric of society in general and American Christian fundamentalism in particular. Saying it's just as wrong to point out out the very real problems of the predominant group as it is for member of that group to be called out as racist is completely asinine. The power differential is huge.

I don't disagree that it is built in to the fabric of our society which is why we all carry unconscious bias no matter how much we may want to believe otherwise. However just because I may believe in a a young earth or that the Bible was written by men inspired by God- which according to many on FJ makes me a fundie- does not mean I am a racist.

[Alicja]

I'm a little shocked that anyone here is okay with people trying to force their religion on others. I get like setting up a booth and explaining it if people approach you, but handing out tracks and telling randoms they are going to hell is bothersome. FormerGothardite's example is a good one too, that's absolutely shitty that people do that to children.

I remember people used to stand outside my high school and try to hand us bibles, and they only left when other students loudly proclaimed they were using them for "rolling paper."

And who the fuck likes people showing up at their door? That's the worst.

Forgive me if my post made it seem like it was okay to do so. I'm 100% against mission trips if they're just about proselytizing and handing out Bibles rather than actually doing something to help people. Missions tend to have a lot of those "white savior" overtones, especially when the countries being visited have a majority population of POC.

[formergothardite]

I think there is a gigantic world of difference between someone handing out non- terrifying pamphlets on the street and someone hurling insults at you or scaring your children. Like with virtually any topic it's all in the presentation. And backing off when asked.

What do you view as a non-terrifying pamphlet? Any religious pamphlet that is handed to my children is basically going to be telling them that everything we teach them is a lie and that they don't need to believe us. Even the cutesy ones that don't mention hell. That is pretty damn awful and insulting, no matter how nice they present it. And when I'm out with my kids enjoying the day, I don't want to have to deal with talking about why so many people want them to think that their parents lie to them. Even if the people don't hand it to my kids and they try to give it to me, it still will put me in the position of having to explain this when all we wanted to do is have a fun day.

[EmmieJ]

I'm a little shocked that anyone here is okay with people trying to force their religion on others. I get like setting up a booth and explaining it if people approach you, but handing out tracks and telling randoms they are going to hell is bothersome. FormerGothardite's example is a good one too, that's absolutely shitty that people do that to children.

I remember people used to stand outside my high school and try to hand us bibles, and they only left when other students loudly proclaimed they were using them for "rolling paper."

And who the fuck likes people showing up at their door? That's the worst.

Ugh - showing up at the door is the worst! I'm tempted the next time that happens, to tell them they've just pushed me over the edge into paganism. I don't like being approached with the idea that I need to be saved. I find that offensive.

If Jill and Derick really want to help people, handing them a bible and telling them that their current choice of religion is wrong, isn't cutting it. And I'm pretty sure that's the majority of what they plan to do - rather than actually working to improve their earthly lives by helping make improvements to the community.

[VelociRapture]

Ugh - showing up at the door is the worst! I'm tempted the next time that happens, to tell them they've just pushed me over the edge into paganism. I don't like being approached with the idea that I need to be saved. I find that offensive.

If Jill and Derick really want to help people, handing them a bible and telling them that their current choice of religion is wrong, isn't cutting it. And I'm pretty sure that's the majority of what they plan to do - rather than actually working to improve their earthly lives by helping make improvements to the community.

My Fiance and I moved out of our hometown 2 years ago. When we used to live there, there were several times that the Jehovah's would come by our neighborhoods. If we were there when they rang the bell, we would immediately freeze - we liked to joke around that their vision is movement based (the way the Paleontologist did in "Jurassic Park" when talking about the T-Rex) and if we froze they couldn't see us. :lol:

[HarleyQuinn]

Forgive me if my post made it seem like it was okay to do so. I'm 100% against mission trips if they're just about proselytizing and handing out Bibles rather than actually doing something to help people. Missions tend to have a lot of those "white savior" overtones, especially when the countries being visited have a majority population of POC.

No worries, it wasn't your post that actually made me want to post my thoughts. lol

[HarleyQuinn]

My Fiance and I moved out of our hometown 2 years ago. When we used to live there, there were several times that the Jehovah's would come by our neighborhoods. If we were there when they rang the bell, we would immediately freeze - we liked to joke around that their vision is movement based (the way the Paleontologist did in "Jurassic Park" when talking about the T-Rex) and if we froze they couldn't see us. :lol:

I answered the door to them in nothing but a towel once. (hey, they just happened to catch me getting out of the shower!) But I thought it was the perfect opportunity because I live in an apartment complex and wtf are they doing in my secure building?

Needless to say, it was a very awkward encounter. And watching them stutter was 100% worth it.

[VelociRapture]

I answered the door to them in nothing but a towel once. (hey, they just happened to catch me getting out of the shower!) But I thought it was the perfect opportunity because I live in an apartment complex and wtf are they doing in my secure building?

Needless to say, it was a very awkward encounter. And watching them stutter was 100% worth it.

:worship:

[nausicaa]

It is edging on racist, though to be fair, I worked in a fairly remote part of China where I was the first white person/foreigner in general that some people had ever seen or met (it's quite rural and isolated and doesn't have much tourist infrastructure, unlike places like Dali or Lijiang, which get foreign tourists who want Tibet without dealing with the travel permits). I would have people come up to me and snap photos of me with their smartphones. It got to the point where I would jokingly say that I was charging 5 RMB (about a dollar) per photo. Sometimes little kids would point at me and yell "WAIGUOREN! WAIGUOREN!" (Foreigner! Foreigner!) If you're working or traveling in an area not frequented by foreigners, you're going to stick out and people will be curious. Derick's phrasing, however, was quite uncomfortable.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I think Jill and Derrick are pretty clueless about cultural sensitivity, but when I was in the Middle East a lot of strangers commented on my hair and eyes (I have light brown hair and grey eyes). I even had a few people ask to take my picture. And this was in cities where people had a ton of western media exposure. A few little kids asked their moms "Why is her hair/are her eyes that way?" and once I had someone shine a flashlight in my eyes to see them better (apparently all eyes, no matter the color, don't take well to that :lol: ). So I do think it is a likely scenario that people have a lot of interest in Izzy because of his appearance.

I'm more annoyed by the fact that they're doing jacksquat over there to help anyone.

[Rachel333]

The last residential school in Canada closed in the 1990s. All events I described took place well into the second half of the 20th century. Its not something that just happened in the 19th century.

The Americans have been purposely spreading Pentecostalism and other forms of Protestantism in Latin America, especially Central America over the last 40 years. Protestant missionaries were working especially hard during the 1980s at the height of the cold war. The fear was that Catholic Liberation Theology had become too influential and that it was too Marxist. A lot of people died. A lot of nuns, brothers and priests died.

I'm aware it continued into the 20th century, I just used 19th because that kind of seems like the heyday of that particular kind of missionary work, which is a style that is definitely not in favor among missionaries today.

I'm not saying missionaries don't still do harm. Look at what American Evangelicals have been doing in Uganda and some other African countries where they are actually encouraging the persecution of gay people.

(There's a documentary about this on Netflix that I've been meaning to watch, actually:

)

[singsingsing]

Yes, missionaries have historically done a lot of harm. It doesn't logically follow that all religious proselytizing is always wrong, no matter what. There is forced and coerced conversion, and then there is just general proselytizing, be it religious, political, cultural, etc. - it's seeking to convince others through the strength of one's argument that this way is the best way. The people listening are then free to accept or reject it based on their own opinions, feelings, and capacity for critical thought.

^ This is the type of proselytizing I don't really have a problem with. Obviously it can be annoying, but it happens all the time, to all of us, from all different religious, political, cultural, societal, and economic positions. Someone's trying to convince you to buy something, and you as the consumer have the option to accept or reject it. When I say I don't particularly like proselytizing but I don't actively oppose it, that is what I'm talking about.

Obviously religious missionaries have gone, and do go, far beyond this, using means and methods that are actively harmful. THAT is wrong. And often the lines are blurred. There are missionaries who honestly believe they're doing the right thing and have no idea how problematic their approach is. That needs to be addressed. But again, it does not logically follow that ALL proselytizing is necessarily harmful.

And please don't lecture me about Canadian residential schools, especially when you have no idea what my background is. I'm abundantly and painfully aware of the damage done by the Catholic church (and to a somewhat lesser extent the protestant churches) in Canada, and frankly it only throws into sharper contrast the difference between the fairly benign proselytizing that many undertake, and things like cultural genocide.

Anyway, if I can try to bring this back around to the point: I think the often hazy middle ground between neutral missionaries (I won't call them 'good') and bad missionaries is a huge problem. Because where do people like the Dillards fall on that spectrum? And how easy is it to tell if someone entering your country honestly just wants to build houses, hand out medical supplies, and tell everyone that Jesus loves them, vs. build houses, hand out medical supplies, and tell everyone that if they just shun birth control, allow their husbands complete authority over them, and beat their children, Jesus will save them from hell? And where is the line, and how should we prevent people from crossing it? To me these are all very important questions, and a blanket denunciation of any and all religious proselytizing is not helpful.

[mango_fandango]

This just reminds me of the Maxwells who turn up at county fairs and dupe the kids by tying balloons, and then hand out tracts and talk to them about death. That is so fucking sneaky. The Maxwells say the kids are crying because they're realising how bad a life without God is, but I call bullshit. They're crying because they were having fun at a fair when some arrogant know-all comes up to them and talks about death. If this happened to my kid I would get so annoyed.

[MalteseBaby]

We take quite a few international vacations per year, and I just received an email travel advisory regarding El Salvador. It states, whether correctly or incorrectly, that gang violence has escalated to the point that police are either complicit and corrupt, or have quit the force before they were killed.

Many images of buildings flaming, armed men out in stalled traffic due to the fires, that sort of thing. It's on or very near the top of the 10 most dangerous places to travel ( outside Syria and the known " no travel" zones in the mid east.

I'm sure Jill and Derick are in a safe private home in a small town or something, but it did cause me to reflect upon their safety for a bit, especially due to the baby's presence.

[formergothardite]

Yes, missionaries have historically done a lot of harm. It doesn't logically follow that all religious proselytizing is always wrong, no matter what. There is forced and coerced conversion, and then there is just general proselytizing, be it religious, political, cultural, etc. - it's seeking to convince others through the strength of one's argument that this way is the best way. The people listening are then free to accept or reject it based on their own opinions, feelings, and capacity for critical thought.

^ This is the type of proselytizing I don't really have a problem with. Obviously it can be annoying, but it happens all the time, to all of us, from all different religious, political, cultural, societal, and economic positions. Someone's trying to convince you to buy something, and you as the consumer have the option to accept or reject it. When I say I don't particularly like proselytizing but I don't actively oppose it, that is what I'm talking about.

Obviously religious missionaries have gone, and do go, far beyond this, using means and methods that are actively harmful. THAT is wrong. And often the lines are blurred. There are missionaries who honestly believe they're doing the right thing and have no idea how problematic their approach is. That needs to be addressed. But again, it does not logically follow that ALL proselytizing is necessarily harmful.

And please don't lecture me about Canadian residential schools, especially when you have no idea what my background is. I'm abundantly and painfully aware of the damage done by the Catholic church (and to a somewhat lesser extent the protestant churches) in Canada, and frankly it only throws into sharper contrast the difference between the fairly benign proselytizing that many undertake, and things like cultural genocide.

Anyway, if I can try to bring this back around to the point: I think the often hazy middle ground between neutral missionaries (I won't call them 'good') and bad missionaries is a huge problem. Because where do people like the Dillards fall on that spectrum? And how easy is it to tell if someone entering your country honestly just wants to build houses, hand out medical supplies, and tell everyone that Jesus loves them, vs. build houses, hand out medical supplies, and tell everyone that if they just shun birth control, allow their husbands complete authority over them, and beat their children, Jesus will save them from hell? And where is the line, and how should we prevent people from crossing it? To me these are all very important questions, and a blanket denunciation of any and all religious proselytizing is not helpful.

Well, that is the problem, it is insulting to go proselytize and it would be helpful if people would realize it. Can you imagine the outrage if a group of atheist went to a poverty stricken Christian community and offered help, but only if they could also tell them how wrong and stupid it was to believe in God? They helped, but the help came with trying to convince the children that their parents are liars and they aren't ever seeing Grandma again because there is no after life. They tell them that they really haven't been comforted by their beliefs and would feel better and become better people if they just stop believing. Does anyone think that this would be okay? Because that is exactly what many missionaries to.

There are varying degrees of wrong, but even the simple handing out tracts can cause harm and isn't a good.

[halcionne]

I don't disagree that it is built in to the fabric of our society which is why we all carry unconscious bias no matter how much we may want to believe otherwise. However just because I may believe in a a young earth or that the Bible was written by men inspired by God- which according to many on FJ makes me a fundie- does not mean I am a racist.

[twinmama]

Yet another Catholic here. I was taught in Catholic school (and in Mass) that the most effective method of evangelization was to do loads of charity work. Often, when people see you doing so much, they ask why. That's when you share that you're Catholic, that charity work is a major tenant of your faith, and that you do it to glorify God.

I don't really get Jill and Derick style missionary work. Do they just accost random people in the street? Stand on a corner with pamphlets, shouting about the end times? Set up a Maxwell-style booth at the carnival? What exactly is it that they're doing? Is any of it productive and providing a necessary service to the community? I believe that it's necessary to be spiritually nourished, as well as physically, but all the faith in the world isn't going to help you if you're starving and homeless.

That I can get on board with. IMO, there is never a good reason to try to convert someone who hasn't already expressed honest interest in your religion. And never make any help you give to a less fortunate person than yourself contingent on them listening to a god spiel or agreeing to anything religious. I mean, if you "bring someone to Christ" or whatever they call it solely because you withheld food or clean water or a home from them, don't you think your god sees through that and thinks less of you??? Or is he only in it for the body count?

[DeFrauder]

I think people who think it's okay are those who have trouble with big picture concepts in general. Sure, an individual who harasses people with their Bibles seems innocuous enough, but multiply that by several thousand, in several countries, backed by the US government in one form or the other? That's a very deliberate strategy those individuals are taking part in, with huge long term consequences, and those individuals don't deserve a pass just because they might genuinely believe that they're spreading the love of Jesus to people.

I don't know. I agree with you, but it might be a bit harsh to blame people for being indoctrinated. If they ever alter their beliefs they may come to understand how what they did was wrong. people that genuinely believe they are spreading the love of Jesus are also victims within the imperialist agenda.

[DGayle]

Yes, missionaries have historically done a lot of harm. It doesn't logically follow that all religious proselytizing is always wrong, no matter what. There is forced and coerced conversion, and then there is just general proselytizing, be it religious, political, cultural, etc. - it's seeking to convince others through the strength of one's argument that this way is the best way. The people listening are then free to accept or reject it based on their own opinions, feelings, and capacity for critical thought.

^ This is the type of proselytizing I don't really have a problem with. Obviously it can be annoying, but it happens all the time, to all of us, from all different religious, political, cultural, societal, and economic positions. Someone's trying to convince you to buy something, and you as the consumer have the option to accept or reject it. When I say I don't particularly like proselytizing but I don't actively oppose it, that is what I'm talking about.

The people they seek to "convince" are people who are in poverty, often ill-educated, and who are too desperate for the food and aid being offered to think critically. We ourselves had to LEARN critical thinking skills. It's not fair to hold a group of desperate people wanting to know why their children are dying and who didn't have the chance to learn like we did, up to the same standards. They're vulnerable, and coming bearing food "from god" is a convincing argument without any further words, that there must be a god for he is sending food and medicine.

[19 cats and counting]

Also why do they need your SSN, drivers license, checking account info, etc when you donate? This sounds like a total scam. Some leg humper is going to get their identity stolen.

This

I work in non profit development/fundraising and this looks beyond excessive (and really sketchy).

I have lost all the respect I had for Derrick and all hope he would be bringing some education and real work ethic to the family.

I work in (US) politics (not in fundraising, but I know the basics of Political Fundraising 101) and they don't even require this for a political donation (which is public and can be searched online depending on what office it is for). All a political donation requires in addition to name, address and payment info is your employer and occupation. (It's also a requirement that a political donor be old enough to vote).

[JillyO]

What's worse is that when you do smile, people demand to know why you're smiling. Just because I don't walk around with a smile plastered on my face doesn't mean that I don't occasionally find something that's worth it. I just can't see getting it up for every Tom, Dick, and Harry. If you want me to smile, try harder.

It's also fucking sexist. No random person on the street ever tells men to smile.

[Toothfairy]

I don't understand why people would go to another country and try to say you're going to hell cause you're not a christian. That's dead wrong! Keep your beliefs to yourself. A country in poverty doesn't need westerners who are privileged telling them they're not praying or working hard enough. Either help these people out if you go or just stay put and keep your mouth closed.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

I'm this way too. I naturally look grumpy. It annoys me to no end when old men tell me to smile, cheer up, it's not that bad, etc. Just let me live my damn life!

My cynical male friends refer to this phenomenon as RBF, or 'Resting Bitch Face'.

And however much I hate to admit this - now that I am mindful of this 'RBF' - whenever I pass a woman with an exceedingly bad case, inadvertently and unwittingly I begin smiling -damnit!! Lest I become infected, haha. ::sarcasm::

Of course, 'resting bitch-face' is often just natural disposition. That is, unless you were hit with a rod whilst "learning" to appear always joyful!! ... ... ::cough cough -Duggars- cough cough!::

[Imagine20]

What happens when they meet someone who questions what the Dillard's (or any other fundie spreading the Word) are saying and the questioner is knowledgeable about many different religions? Would they just keep repeating their Gothard approved talking points over and over again, would they engage in a conversation with the person and learn more, or just get flustered and throw candy at them and run away?

[from the bible belt]

It's also fucking sexist. No random person on the street ever tells men to smile.

Can somebody fill me in on the background of this smile story? I don't understand