All Things Dillard - Part 5

[NewSeasonOfLife]

The phrasing he used seemed like a racist dog whistle to me, that's why it stood out. I think he does think he's better than the lowly people in poor countries. When you think about it, having such a superiority complex is quite the liability in an area of the world full of crime. I'm sure he assumes nothing could possibly happen to either of them.

Yes, I've been noticed for being white while in Asia. Once, I was at an aquarium with my in-laws and I started noticing the same people going by me and staring and some were trying to be all sly with their picture taking. I looked really confused and then my sister in law laughed and said "They think you're Saudi!" (I was wearing hijab.) When this happens around the world, I don't think it has anything to do with white being better, it's just white is different.

My sister took her two kids (at the time around 18 months and 7 years old) to Tokyo. Whilst they were there they went to Tokyo Disneyland. Apparently people followed them around taking pictures and wanted to touch her baby's hair, because supposedly blonde children are considered to be good luck in that culture. It slightly freaked my sister out.

[Gobbles]

Re: Mormons (I think they were?!)

They do! I saw them a couple of times here in Germany. They wear name tags with "Elder NAME" written on it. They were dressed in dark trousers, shirt and tie. They were really quite, had no electronic gadgets with them and seemed really shy. Sadly they did not talk with each other, I would have loved to hear what they talk about. One of them looked at me quite a bit, I guess because of my self harm scars + rainbow LGBT+ bracelet but he said nothing. (I was mentally preparing on how to reply to a "God helps you" talk...) They got off the bus at the US army barracks here in my town.

It was so surreal. You have the bus full with people wearing shorts and tops and then those two guys totally out of place.

[justoneoftwo]

Totally random question, but talking about annoying missionaries made me think of Mormons and now I'm wondering if fundies feel the same level of disdain for Mormonism that they do for Catholicism. Or does Mormonism get more of a pass because it started in the same way (I'm hugely simplifying here) that Protestantism did with breaking away from the established hierarchy?

My fundi aunt believes that Mormons sacrifice to the devil and have symbols of witchcraft in their temples. She also is unclear on what they sacrifice, but is sure it is something. She at least is way more anti Mormon than Catholic, but that may just be her branch of fundi.

[MatthewDuggar]

I don't find it odd, strange, insulting or otherwise when Christians go off to "convert". It is part of the faith, a big part in many sects. You certainly don't find atheist groups going to developing countries encouraging people to give up their beliefs because that's not "what they do". I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and we were always taught about spreading the "good news" and was always definitely considered a positive thing when someone converted to Catholicism. The way the Jillard's are going about it is very much more aggressive and "in your face", and I am certainly not apologizing for their fraud of missions. I just find some of the ignorance around Christianity and proselytizing here rather shocking.

gotquestions.org/Christian-proselytization.html

[justoneoftwo]

I've wondered the same thing. Mormons also send their children on mandatory missions when they reach a certain age, don't they?

They are not truly mandatory, though culturally they really are. At 18 the men go, 19 for women. Generally only the men have gone in large numbers because the women were home waiting (they used to go at 20) and when they found their RM (returned missionary) they got married and had kids. Basically in order to get the best Mormon women you needed to be an RM, there was no such requirement for the women. Additionally, the men are presumed to be called, while women were less so. Now that they have changed the rules and are allowing younger people to go the attitude may be changing.

They also recently changed the uniform for tropical areas. I don't know what they changed it to, it was just a headline around here after the last conference.

[purple_summer]

I've wondered the same thing. Mormons also send their children on mandatory missions when they reach a certain age, don't they?

In my experience, Mormons were disliked because they added additional books to the biblical canon which is forbidden in the book of Revelation. My parents were never rude to the missionaries but they made it clear that they weren't interested.

[DeFrauder]

Totally random question, but talking about annoying missionaries made me think of Mormons and now I'm wondering if fundies feel the same level of disdain for Mormonism that they do for Catholicism. Or does Mormonism get more of a pass because it started in the same way (I'm hugely simplifying here) that Protestantism did with breaking away from the established hierarchy?

They can be even MORE upset with Mormons. There are all kinds of conspiracy theories about Mormons secretly worshiping Satan inside their secret temples where they have secret orgies.

While fundies believe that Catholics are not saved and are doing Christianity wrong, they, in general, do not believe that Mormons are even doing Christianity. It is true that Mormonism is thought of by scholars as a "new" religious movement as it added new ideas to the existing forms of Christianity.

Plus, Mormonism has been so feared since its beginnings that it sparked a great deal of violence. It was like faith-based civil war and Joseph Smith was eventually murdered by a mob. Not only did Mormonism attract a lot of converts, but Smith ran for president.

[lascuba]

I don't find it odd, strange, insulting or otherwise when Christians go off to "convert". It is part of the faith, a big part in many sects. You certainly don't find atheist groups going to developing countries encouraging people to give up their beliefs because that's not "what they do". I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and we were always taught about spreading the "good news" and was always definitely considered a positive thing when someone converted to Catholicism. The way the Jillard's are going about it is very much more aggressive and "in your face", and I am certainly not apologizing for their fraud of missions. I just find some of the ignorance around Christianity and proselytizing here rather shocking.

gotquestions.org/Christian-proselytization.html

It's not ignorance. We know that proselytizing is part of the faith, and many of us find that morally repugnant.

[justoneoftwo]

They can be even MORE upset with Mormons. There are all kinds of conspiracy theories about Mormons secretly worshiping Satan inside their secret temples where they have secret orgies.

While fundies believe that Catholics are not saved and are doing Christianity wrong, they, in general, do not believe that Mormons are even doing Christianity. It is true that Mormonism is thought of by scholars as a "new" religious movement as it added new ideas to the existing forms of Christianity.

Plus, Mormonism has been so feared since its beginnings that it sparked a great deal of violence. It was like faith-based civil war and Joseph Smith was eventually murdered by a mob. Not only did Mormonism attract a lot of converts, but Smith ran for president.

He also ran a theocracy in Illinois, and owned basically everything in one county. This was very upsetting to many. Not to mention that polygamy added to the fire. Further Mormons believe (or are thought to believe) that they can ascend to being as great as Jesus. This upsets most christian groups.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Totally random question, but talking about annoying missionaries made me think of Mormons and now I'm wondering if fundies feel the same level of disdain for Mormonism that they do for Catholicism. Or does Mormonism get more of a pass because it started in the same way (I'm hugely simplifying here) that Protestantism did with breaking away from the established hierarchy?

No pass for Mormons! Did you not see the great Ben Seewald's recent anti Mormon post? I've never met an evangelical who is ok with Mormonism. It's WORSE than Catholicism.

[ClaraOswin]

I don't find it odd, strange, insulting or otherwise when Christians go off to "convert". It is part of the faith, a big part in many sects. You certainly don't find atheist groups going to developing countries encouraging people to give up their beliefs because that's not "what they do". I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and we were always taught about spreading the "good news" and was always definitely considered a positive thing when someone converted to Catholicism. The way the Jillard's are going about it is very much more aggressive and "in your face", and I am certainly not apologizing for their fraud of missions. I just find some of the ignorance around Christianity and proselytizing here rather shocking.

gotquestions.org/Christian-proselytization.html

I went to Catholic school from pre-k through 12th grade. I don't recall being taught to go out and convert people at all. But maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention in my religion classes. Then again, I've never really been hardcore any religion so perhaps that's why.

I don't really care if that's "what they do." I find it obnoxious and unnecessary. I think they should mind their own business when it comes to spirituality. And worry about their own lives instead.

And if they truly want to help others...help them find food, shelter, school, etc.

[singsingsing]

I don't see the problem with trying to convert other people to your belief system, obviously as long as you're not using violence or coercion. I think it's annoying to go into a community that's struggling and do nothing but try to convert them to your religion, but just proselytizing in general isn't really a big deal. People are either going to buy into it, or they won't. This has been going on for millennia. All religion and culture results from an exchange of information and ideas. I think treating certain groups of people as though they're pristine or fragile and incapable of critical thought is wrong.

[lascuba]

No pass for Mormons! Did you not see the great Ben Seewald's recent anti Mormon post? I've never met an evangelical who is ok with Mormonism. It's WORSE than Catholicism.

I didn't! I have to look it up now. There's no rant like a Ben Seewald bitching about the minutiae of Christianity rant.

[justoneoftwo]

I don't see the problem with trying to convert other people to your belief system, obviously as long as you're not using violence or coercion. I think it's annoying to go into a community that's struggling and do nothing but try to convert them to your religion, but just proselytizing in general isn't really a big deal. People are either going to buy into it, or they won't. This has been going on for millennia. All religion and culture results from an exchange of information and ideas. I think treating certain groups of people as though they're pristine or fragile and incapable of critical thought is wrong.

Proselytizing is rude and insulting. I hate being told by 19 year old kids that I am going to hell. In fact, in general being told I'm going to hell insults me. I have a faith that keeps me happy and doing the right things. I am not evil nor equivalent to Hitler because I drink. People who will not go away, interrupt my life and lecture me because they are so superior are insulting and problematic. If I want to know about your faith I am perfectly capable of asking and then you are free to share. Also, don't pick on my kids and make them cry.

[halcionne]

My fundi aunt believes that Mormons sacrifice to the devil and have symbols of witchcraft in their temples. She also is unclear on what they sacrifice, but is sure it is something. She at least is way more anti Mormon than Catholic, but that may just be her branch of fundi.

They think Mormons are completely wrong and aren't Christians at all. Jessa Ben uploaded a video about this last week (I didn't watch it & have no idea what it says).

[DeFrauder]

I don't find it odd, strange, insulting or otherwise when Christians go off to "convert". It is part of the faith, a big part in many sects. You certainly don't find atheist groups going to developing countries encouraging people to give up their beliefs because that's not "what they do". I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and we were always taught about spreading the "good news" and was always definitely considered a positive thing when someone converted to Catholicism. The way the Jillard's are going about it is very much more aggressive and "in your face", and I am certainly not apologizing for their fraud of missions. I just find some of the ignorance around Christianity and proselytizing here rather shocking.

gotquestions.org/Christian-proselytization.html

Actually, I disagree that atheists do not proselytize. They are not organized to the point where they open missions in other countries and have a centralized authority structure BUT I think that it was either Dawkins or Hitchens that advised fellow atheists that it was their responsibility to discredit the idea of religion and spread atheism wherever possible (this is just a loose paraphrase). Atheists do in fact organize clubs (on campus for example) to act as a support group and to engage in activism.

Also there are two types of missions. Going to another country and helping impoverished people with their economic needs for the sole benefit of the people they are helping, and going to another country for the purpose of conversion of the people there in order to fulfill the political needs of the country sending the missionaries. If J and D are in El Salvador just to "save souls" then they are of the latter type.

Missions have always been the vanguard of imperialism. During the early colonization of North America, the British would send an Anglican priest to a tribe of natives, while the French would send a Catholic priest to convert another tribe. After conversion, it was very easy to get them to war each other --the opposing team was worshiping the wrong God and their territory needed to be won back for the real God. Sometimes the campaigns were led by the priests themselves.

Protestant proselytizing in Central America is very controversial as it has been a tool of USA political influence on the region.

This is the reason people are criticizing J&D--not because they simply want to spread the good news of Jesus. Its because they don't know any better.

[lascuba]

I'm reminded of a hilarious explanation of the "Big Three" religions I read several years ago. They explained it as a movie franchise with Judaism beint move #1, Christianity #2, and Islam #3. Mormons were such huge fans of #2 that they wrote fanfic that doesn't fit with any of the series canon. It was the best explanation of Mormonism I've ever come across. :lol:

[DeFrauder]

I don't see the problem with trying to convert other people to your belief system, obviously as long as you're not using violence or coercion. I think it's annoying to go into a community that's struggling and do nothing but try to convert them to your religion, but just proselytizing in general isn't really a big deal. People are either going to buy into it, or they won't. This has been going on for millennia. All religion and culture results from an exchange of information and ideas. I think treating certain groups of people as though they're pristine or fragile and incapable of critical thought is wrong.

I disagree that it is just a matter of people buying into it or not.

I heard an Inuit man from the arctic speak once. He made the comment:(paraphrased) "when the white men came we thought they were gods because they had technology we had never seen. They came in planes. So we listened to them when they told us what to do, even though it turned out that they were giving us really bad advice".

Do you know what that bad advice was? The govt hired different churches to round up all the children and remove them from their parents so they could teach them about Christianity and how to live like white Christians in "residential schools". Then they built permanent houses and forced the Inuit to stop being nomadic by slaughtering all their sled dogs. No dogs meant no following the herds to hunt and they were then reliant on the govt to give them food rations. If they didn't produce their children to be sent to the residential schools they would not get their food rations. At the schools, the "missionaries" beat and sexually abused the children. Children caught speaking their indigenous language had their tongues stuck with pins. A lot of the kids died. Some were murdered. Many are still suffering from the trauma of the abuse.

Missionary work is not harmless and people with no education have no business doing it.

[Rachel333]

I still don't like religious missionaries, but the imperialist-era style of mission work is a different beast from what missionary work is now. I have a lot of missionaries in my family and in mission training they actually make a point of talking about what 19th (ish) century missionaries did wrong so they can get as far away from that as possible. Most modern missionaries are as horrified by what missionaries did to the Inuit and other peoples as anyone else. It wasn't just missionaries doing that back then, either; even a lot of people who weren't particularly religious believed in cultural imperialism back then and did very similar things to what the missionaries did.

(A lot of creationists now like to talk about how social Darwinism was a major justification for racism and imperialism, which is true, but they don't talk about how Christianity was used that way as well.)

[OodOnTheLoo]

Can't believe I'm about to stand up for the Dillard's but I wouldn't be surprised if the locals do refer to Izzy as the "white baby" and love his eyes and seeing him. He's a cutie but also novel.

I live in an area with majority of Latinos and so many commented on my sons eyes,wishing they had kids with blue eyes. I think it comes from finding them pretty and even more so, unusual. The culture isn't rife with white privilege guilt and the need to stay pc.

I don't think it is any different than looking into those dark puddles some aa babies have and aching because they are so gorgeous. It's just hard to make comments without coming off racially inappropriate so I just tell their moms that the baby is gorgeous but really, I would love to fawn all over that baby and wish I had a baby with big, dark eyes.

[Mama Mia]

Proselytizing is rude and insulting. I hate being told by 19 year old kids that I am going to hell. In fact, in general being told I'm going to hell insults me. I have a faith that keeps me happy and doing the right things. I am not evil nor equivalent to Hitler because I drink. People who will not go away, interrupt my life and lecture me because they are so superior are insulting and problematic. If I want to know about your faith I am perfectly capable of asking and then you are free to share. Also, don't pick on my kids and make them cry.

I think there is a gigantic world of difference between someone handing out non- terrifying pamphlets on the street and someone hurling insults at you or scaring your children. Like with virtually any topic it's all in the presentation. And backing off when asked.

[justoneoftwo]

I think there is a gigantic world of difference between someone handing out non- terrifying pamphlets on the street and someone hurling insults at you or scaring your children. Like with virtually any topic it's all in the presentation. And backing off when asked.

I will agree with you there, although many people seem to be very insulted by being stopped on the street for any reason. (As an example people tell women to smile on the street all the time, it doesn't bug me when people stop me, but others are clearly affronted that someone assumes they can stop them and take up their time). I will say I have never run into someone who was proselytizing to people they did not know who did it politely or without insulting others. Sure I talk with my friends about their religions and they clearly wish I would join their religion but in non insulting ways.

[VelociRapture]

I went to Catholic school from pre-k through 12th grade. I don't recall being taught to go out and convert people at all. But maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention in my religion classes. Then again, I've never really been hardcore any religion so perhaps that's why.

I don't really care if that's "what they do." I find it obnoxious and unnecessary. I think they should mind their own business when it comes to spirituality. And worry about their own lives instead.

And if they truly want to help others...help them find food, shelter, school, etc.

I was raised Catholic and went through CCD - I also have numerous relatives who were members of the Clergy or Nuns (my family is Irish, so it was kind of a big deal; lol!). Not once in my life have I ever been told to go around attempting to convert anyone in that way or at all. If my Great-Uncle, a Priest for over fifty years, saw what the Dills were doing he would shake his head - because that isn't how you act if you're a good Christian. It's selfish and harmful, plain and simple.

[mollysmom]

It was a stupid thing to put in the blog. I have no doubt that in fact there may be some fascination by locals with Izzy, but to put it in the blog sounds condescendingly racist.

Getting away from the family compound is a good thing, but at this moment in time neither Jill or Derick seem to have much sense, or ability to think outside of their fundie box. In the early Derick episodes, he seemed like a cool, chill kind of guy. I could imagine him rock climbing, Parkour, kayaking, etc. He kind of had a bit of a hipster vibe. I always questioned his judgment just based on the story that he supposedly sought out JB as a prayer partner, but still I thought he might be a devout but more liberal Christian (Yes they do exist).

But Derick was apparently so in need of a father figure, and desirous of what he perceived to be a big loving family, that he just seems to have lost himself.

I keep wondering what he did in Nepal. Did he just pass out tracts, or did he do useful work? Did he really attempt to acclimate with the local people? Did he respect their culture and values? If So, then perhaps after a few months of the ridiculous shit that we have seen SOS does, Derick will wake up and realize that he could be doing more. And as for Jill, If she is smart enough to not get pg soon, perhaps she could again study midwifery, or at least assist in someway with child care needs. She at least has lots of experience with that. She also apparently can cook for large numbers of people so she could be useful that way as well.

There may even be a school nearby where she could formally study midwifery or nursing. She won't do it of course, but ...

I agree with all of this. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[VelociRapture]

I will agree with you there, although many people seem to be very insulted by being stopped on the street for any reason. (As an example people tell women to smile on the street all the time, it doesn't bug me when people stop me, but others are clearly affronted that someone assumes they can stop them and take up their time). I will say I have never run into someone who was proselytizing to people they did not know who did it politely or without insulting others. Sure I talk with my friends about their religions and they clearly wish I would join their religion but in non insulting ways.

I get offended for being told to smile because it's insanely rude - not because the person is taking up my time. My lips naturally turn downwards, yet people (almost always older men, which just creeps me out) don't stop to consider that my face just looks that way when I'm going about my day - they just tell me to smile more.

If I smiled all the time they'd think I'm a psycho. Can't win either way!