All Things Dillard - Part 5

[2manyKidzzz]

Jinderella I am glad you son is doing okay. :)

[Mama Mia]

It's not sexist to point out sexism. I'm 99% certain you're a man (you've said your rl name is Matthew, but I suppose you could be a woman named Matthew), so I'm not sure how valid your opinion is on this anyway. Talking over women on a woman-dominated forum about a women's issue is probably not the wisest move.

Wow. So a man can't say that he feels being called ignorant and grouped into what could be construed as a pretty condescending comment about his sex is not okay? How is your response ANY different than , say , the following exchange:

Male dominated forum:

Male Poster: I think most women are just ignorant about the way they comment on x to men can be seen as demeaning.

Female Poster: That's pretty offensive, I've also met some pretty ignorant men on this topic. Let's not be sexist.

Next Male Poster: What, you're a woman, your opinion isn't valid on this. Don't talk over the men with your fluff.

:roll:

I understand " ignorant" wasn't meant in an offensive way. But everyone is aware that generally " ignorant" IS used to be insulting and the vast majority of people would prefer to hear " I don't think most people of group x are aware are aware of" rather than " I think most people of x group are ignorant of" , regardless of the subject or the group.

And how can someone be accused of " talking over" someone else on a freaking comment stream? That's ridiculous.

[HarryPotterFan]

I was wondering if I was the only one this "smile" crap happened to. I thought I must really look miserable!! I've never heard anyone talk about it before. I only started getting told to "smile" when I was in my mid teens. Never told by women of any age, it was always by older men. It always caught me completely off guard and made me very uncomfortable. If I didn't respond right away, they would sometimes say it multiple times and stand there until I obliged. I'd say it pretty much stopped in my late 20s.

The first time a stranger told me to smile he was homeless so I was just left wondering if I look so miserable that even homeless who beg for change all day in the cold Midwestern winter think I need to cheer up. But I don't get why these guys even care or feel the need to say anything.

[nausicaa]

Male entitlement. We are supposed to look pretty for them at all times, and if we don't, men feel entitled to bring it to our attention. I'm old enough now to not get as often as I did when I was in my prime. And old enough to just give them a death stare when I do get it.

There is another element to it as well, something I have realized more and more in recent years. The idea that women have nothing "inside" of them. We exist as pretty shells to decorate men's lives, the perpetual supporting cast for the men in the starring roles. So, of course we couldn't be having a bad day, or be upset about something, or maybe just reflecting on the current state of North Korea or whatever else. We don't really think, we only appear.

I'm surprised by how many men* express surprise that I have interests other than shopping, dating, and going out with friends. I know some of it is because my interests are odd, but a lot of it also seems to be based on the assumption that I couldn't have interests, or passions, or even read books about "non-female" theoretical subject like economics or military strategy. It's always chilling to realize someone doesn't think you are fully a person.

*Perfunctory disclaimer: Not all men of course.

[gustava]

Ignorance can mean "lacking knowledge/experience. It does not necessarily mean stupid. I as a female am ignorant of the pressures that society places on men. My ignorance doesn't make me stupid.

[BlackSheep]

The first time a stranger told me to smile he was homeless so I was just left wondering if I look so miserable that even homeless who beg for change all day in the cold Midwestern winter think I need to cheer up. But I don't get why these guys even care or feel the need to say anything.

I used to have a very stressful job. One of my superiors in particular often treated me very badly - she would demean me, take credit for my work, and more. One day, on the bus going home, when my stop was next, I walked to the front of the bus to wait. The bus stopped, the door opened, and the bus driver, an older gent, looked at me and said in a very concerned way, "It can't be that bad, can it?" I was stunned. And suddenly I realized that my sadness and complete discouragement was written all over my face.

That was my a-ha moment. Not long after that, I started looking for a new job, and I found a better one.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

These smug men are often found at the casino, playing poker. They say to me, such a pretty girl should smile more... Little do they know, I play poker as a part-time job. So I scowl,then I wait, and when I take their chips, I give them the coyest fucking smile. Haha. :angelic-red:

[MatthewDuggar]

It's not sexist to point out sexism. I'm 99% certain you're a man (you've said your rl name is Matthew, but I suppose you could be a woman named Matthew), so I'm not sure how valid your opinion is on this anyway. Talking over women on a woman-dominated forum about a women's issue is probably not the wisest move.

LMAO whatever

[Rescinded and Mended]

He is 13 now and doing okay, thanks for asking!

I used to be very shy and polite once and comments from strangers would hunt me for days. But now I'm older and wiser and mean :twisted: . It would be nice if people learn something from my unsensitive remarks, but at least I hope it brings some shame on the right person....

I am also glad that your son is doing well, Jinderella. :) It's so hard to watch kids go through chemo, and I'm so happy to hear your kiddo is on the mend. :wink-kitty:

[DeFrauder]

[

Of course, 'resting bitch-face' is often just natural disposition. That is, unless you were hit with a rod whilst "learning" to appear always joyful!! ... ... ::cough cough -Duggars- cough cough!::

We need a name for this face. :D :cry: :D

[DeFrauder]

I seem to be significantly older than many of the cradle Catholics on this board. I began first grade, in a Catholic school, in 1960. I distinctly remember being encouraged to give up my candy money or my milk money to "save the pagan babies"... a certain number of coins on a card meant one more could be "saved"... for years we thought we were "buying" pagan babies that the Catholic missions were taking care of. So it's not completely unheard of.

Then there's the hymn... "Go Make of All Disciples"....

I do agree, though... the emphasis on conversion in my Catholic school was "let the experts do it. If you want to become an expert, sign up for convent/seminary."

Pre-Vatican II times were different. The Church was operating on Victorian missionary values. Since then the Church has evolved.

I would not be surprised if the milk and candy money went for the support of Native children in residential schools.

The Catholic Church has a long history of taking care of the poor, however. In Brazil, the new colonists were especially brutal on the Native population, enslaving them and working them to death. The reasons they started bringing slaves from Africa is because they were better able to withstand the abuse from the colonists. The Jesuits set up a mission to protect the Natives from the colonists who would just grab anybody they saw and force them into labor.

So its a two sides of the same coin issue. Missionaries have been involved in a lot of bad stuff and bad practices, but they have also tried to do good things.

It is difficult to condemn someone who lived in 1900 for conforming to 1900 values, but it is super easy to condemn someone living in 2015 for conforming to 1900 values. Anyone involves in missions in 2015 needs to take a good hard look at what they are doing and why.

[Mama Mia]

There is another element to it as well, something I have realized more and more in recent years. The idea that women have nothing "inside" of them. We exist as pretty shells to decorate men's lives, the perpetual supporting cast for the men in the starring roles. So, of course we couldn't be having a bad day, or be upset about something, or maybe just reflecting on the current state of North Korea or whatever else. We don't really think, we only appear.

I'm surprised by how many men* express surprise that I have interests other than shopping, dating, and going out with friends. I know some of it is because my interests are odd, but a lot of it also seems to be based on the assumption that I couldn't have interests, or passions, or even read books about "non-female" theoretical subject like economics or military strategy. It's always chilling to realize someone doesn't think you are fully a person.

*Perfunctory disclaimer: Not all men of course.

I don't doubt you, but I'm wondering, where do you interact with these men? I'm in my 50's, and I can't recall ever talking to a man who was surprised if I want to have a conversation about a serious topic. Although I'm not interested in military strategy , but politics, economics, etc....definitely. I have always heard the " smile" comments though. I haven't really tracked so much who says them though. I have heard one of my sons ( in his twenties) be told to smile by a female . It was an acquintence not a stranger , don't know if that means anything.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I was watching an episode of Dr. Phil the other day. At the start of the show, Phil took a survey and asked the women in the audience about certain things they had done in order to get a guy interested in them. One of the survey questions was, "Have you ever pretended you were less intelligent in order to get the guy to like you?"

60% of the women surveyed claimed they had acted dumb in order to attract a man. All I could think of was :wtf: :cray-cray: I have done things to get a man interested in me when I dated years ago, some were more successful than others, but I have never once played dumb and manipulated a guy into thinking he was smarter than me as a way to interest him. How demeaning that any woman would ever think she has to be intellectually less than who she truly in order to interest a man, and how demeaning to men to not respect them enough to offer the truth regarding an intelligent opinion.

I'm in my mid-thirties - is this honestly something that women still do nowadays? If so, how horrifying. :?

[artdecades]

I think everyone here would be interested in Stop Telling Women To Smile, a public art series about this very subject.

not breaking because she wants to get the message out and stuff

http://stoptellingwomentosmile.com/

http://stoptellingwomentosmile.tumblr.com/

[nastyhobbitses]

I was watching an episode of Dr. Phil the other day. At the start of the show, Phil took a survey and asked the women in the audience about certain things they had done in order to get a guy interested in them. One of the survey questions was, "Have you ever pretended you were less intelligent in order to get the guy to like you?"

60% of the women surveyed claimed they had acted dumb in order to attract a man. All I could think of was :wtf: :cray-cray: I have done things to get a man interested in me when I dated years ago, some were more successful than others, but I have never once played dumb and manipulated a guy into thinking he was smarter than me as a way to interest him. How demeaning that any woman would ever think she has to be intellectually less than who she truly in order to interest a man, and how demeaning to men to not respect them enough to offer the truth regarding an intelligent opinion.

I'm in my mid-thirties - is this honestly something that women still do nowadays? If so, how horrifying. :?

I'm in my early 20s, and I haven't witnessed it firsthand, though the movie Mean Girls has the main character do it, and it's addressed by the guy she's pursuing (predictably, he says that he was attracted to her because she was smart, and she was really dumb to try to dumb herself down for him). Maybe it's the sort of people I like to date/hook up with, but I have never dumbed myself down for a man (or woman, for that matter), because 1) I knew they'd find me less attractive if I didn't appear to be smart, and 2) if they had a problem with me being smart, I knew I could just kick them to the curb and find someone who didn't have a problem with that.

[SnazzyNazzy]

Now that I am 3 and a half rum and cokes in, I must ask this question. To put it in "Twilight" terms, why so much inter-board hostility, towards people who are "Team Jessa" or "Team Jill"? I totally understand the whole "is 4 month old Izzy developmentally delayed" nonsense, because it isn't cool to bag on a baby. Though as an aside, I think he just looks exhausted. The poor bebe has traveled more in his 4 months, than some 40yos I know, and is probably on some wacky schedule, if any.

The thing is, is that both Jessa and Jill, and their respective husbands, are really nothing more, than assholes. You have Jessa "abortion is the holocaust, the #1 religion in the world (aka catholicism) is wrong" Seewald, versus Jill "everything is amazing, even my "70 hour" labor, that I withheld medical intervention until shit got really real, and Imma bring my WASPy baby to grace the presence of every El Salvadoran, not to mention my accountant husband will do their taxes" Dillard. Not to mention that both of them, think we all suck, because we feel bad they got molested, and want them to get any help they may need. The good news is, is that if you are atheist you don't even exist, if you're gay you are damned to hell so your opinion means naught, and if you happen to be trans-gendered you are simply too busy cruising bathrooms looking under stalls at you leisure (I kid on all of that of course, but is it really that far from their viewpoint).

Maybe it is picking the more tolerable and/palatable asshole, that brings out the hostility, I don't know. I don't think either of them lose sleep, over any of our opinions on them. Not to mention that it helps to have comment scrubbers, who delete any comment that isn't "omg you are fabulous, in the biblical sense" on their social media accounts. It isn't like neither of them, wouldn't unfairly judge any of us, because of what we do/say/believe. Neither one of them would pony up $1.00, if one of our kids had cancer, but they sure would have no problem, taking $1.00 from a family that has a kid with cancer. Though, they might give you $1.00, for your cancer kid, IF they got a lot of good press, perhaps a People Magazine snippet, for the do-gooding.

They both suck, so why fight amongst ourselves? Look at the shit they say and do, so why get mad when someone says that pregnancy doesn't suit Jessa, and she looks rode hard and put away yet? Why get mad, when someone says Jill really needs to throw a Spanx on, because jersey knit is flattering only to a chosen few, and a 4 month post-partum woman, that had a 9+lb baby isn't one of them? Why get mad, when someone says Derick, looks like the real-life version of Shaggy, from Scooby-Do? Why get so mad at people on here, for saying bitchy, catty, irrelevant things about these two, when they probably don't even care (though if they read here, I'm sure they are praying for our souls, unless you are atheist, gay or transgendered, because we are all going to hell regardless).

For the record, if you couldn't tell, I don't like either of them, although Jill "I just had 3 People Magazine articles about me, but I need money for El Salvador", is slightly more palatable than Jessa "Imma post cryptic bible verses, from the bible version of the day".

Can't we all just get along? And can't we all agree, that Derick looks like the real-life version of Shaggy? Now that I am on rum and coke #5...

[DeFrauder]

Can't we all just get along? And can't we all agree, that Derick looks like the real-life version of Shaggy? Now that I am on rum and coke #5.....

I snipped, but that was magic! What type of rum are you drinking? Maybe I can catch up. I love a good dark rum, the darker the better with the taste of molasses and vanilla mmmmmmmm

I think the assholery that the married Duggars display is proof that Gothardism and homeschooling truly does work to turn innocent children into hateful monsters.

If these people were in any other setting they would be skewered by the media daily--especially the librul media. For some reason they get a pass because ---why? ---because they are cute and we saw them grow up on tv?

They are bad, bigoted people with hateful ideas. The more kids they pump out the more people they will create to be just like them.

All these people worried about Islam, when its people like the Duggars that are a real threat to our culture and values.

[nastyhobbitses]

not to mention my accountant husband will do their taxes

Snipped, but is that even possible? 1) Derick is not a CPA (though I guess you don't have to be to do people's taxes), and 2) taxes are ridiculously country-specific. If his only post-college accounting job has been at Wal-Mart, I doubt he knows much, if anything at all, about Salvadoran tax code unless he worked a lot with Central America-based suppliers. Which, considering he's in his 20s and consequently didn't seem to be terribly high up in the corporate pecking order, seems unlikely.

[from the bible belt]

He is 13 now and doing okay, thanks for asking!

I used to be very shy and polite once and comments from strangers would hunt me for days. But now I'm older and wiser and mean :twisted: . It would be nice if people learn something from my unsensitive remarks, but at least I hope it brings some shame on the right person....

I am glad that yoyr son is fine now!

Interesting to hear that it happens in the netherlands too, for some reasing i have never heard it. Maybe i not interesting enough :P

[from the bible belt]

There is another element to it as well, something I have realized more and more in recent years. The idea that women have nothing "inside" of them. We exist as pretty shells to decorate men's lives, the perpetual supporting cast for the men in the starring roles. So, of course we couldn't be having a bad day, or be upset about something, or maybe just reflecting on the current state of North Korea or whatever else. We don't really think, we only appear.

I'm surprised by how many men* express surprise that I have interests other than shopping, dating, and going out with friends. I know some of it is because my interests are odd, but a lot of it also seems to be based on the assumption that I couldn't have interests, or passions, or even read books about "non-female" theoretical subject like economics or military strategy. It's always chilling to realize someone doesn't think you are fully a person.

*Perfunctory disclaimer: Not all men of course.

Thx for the answers, food for thought!

[lascuba]

Now that I am 3 and a half rum and cokes in, I must ask this question. To put it in "Twilight" terms, why so much inter-board hostility, towards people who are "Team Jessa" or "Team Jill"? I totally understand the whole "is 4 month old Izzy developmentally delayed" nonsense, because it isn't cool to bag on a baby. Though as an aside, I think he just looks exhausted. The poor bebe has traveled more in his 4 months, than some 40yos I know, and is probably on some wacky schedule, if any.

The thing is, is that both Jessa and Jill, and their respective husbands, are really nothing more, than assholes. You have Jessa "abortion is the holocaust, the #1 religion in the world (aka catholicism) is wrong" Seewald, versus Jill "everything is amazing, even my "70 hour" labor, that I withheld medical intervention until shit got really real, and Imma bring my WASPy baby to grace the presence of every El Salvadoran, not to mention my accountant husband will do their taxes" Dillard. Not to mention that both of them, think we all suck, because we feel bad they got molested, and want them to get any help they may need. The good news is, is that if you are atheist you don't even exist, if you're gay you are damned to hell so your opinion means naught, and if you happen to be trans-gendered you are simply too busy cruising bathrooms looking under stalls at you leisure (I kid on all of that of course, but is it really that far from their viewpoint).

Maybe it is picking the more tolerable and/palatable asshole, that brings out the hostility, I don't know. I don't think either of them lose sleep, over any of our opinions on them. Not to mention that it helps to have comment scrubbers, who delete any comment that isn't "omg you are fabulous, in the biblical sense" on their social media accounts. It isn't like neither of them, wouldn't unfairly judge any of us, because of what we do/say/believe. Neither one of them would pony up $1.00, if one of our kids had cancer, but they sure would have no problem, taking $1.00 from a family that has a kid with cancer. Though, they might give you $1.00, for your cancer kid, IF they got a lot of good press, perhaps a People Magazine snippet, for the do-gooding.

They both suck, so why fight amongst ourselves? Look at the shit they say and do, so why get mad when someone says that pregnancy doesn't suit Jessa, and she looks rode hard and put away yet? Why get mad, when someone says Jill really needs to throw a Spanx on, because jersey knit is flattering only to a chosen few, and a 4 month post-partum woman, that had a 9+lb baby isn't one of them? Why get mad, when someone says Derick, looks like the real-life version of Shaggy, from Scooby-Do? Why get so mad at people on here, for saying bitchy, catty, irrelevant things about these two, when they probably don't even care (though if they read here, I'm sure they are praying for our souls, unless you are atheist, gay or transgendered, because we are all going to hell regardless).

For the record, if you couldn't tell, I don't like either of them, although Jill "I just had 3 People Magazine articles about me, but I need money for El Salvador", is slightly more palatable than Jessa "Imma post cryptic bible verses, from the bible version of the day".

Can't we all just get along? And can't we all agree, that Derick looks like the real-life version of Shaggy? Now that I am on rum and coke #5...

For me it's not a preference for any one person, because you're right, they are all assholes. It's the reasons people here have for disliking one asshole while loving the other. When the same people who say that Jill and Jana are so great because they're "maternal" and "sweet," dislike Jessa because she's a bitch, yeah, I'm going to side-eye the hell out of them, because liking people for having personalities that perfectly align with fundie values is messed up on multiple levels.

[EmmieJ]

Wow. So a man can't say that he feels being called ignorant and grouped into what could be construed as a pretty condescending comment about his sex is not okay? How is your response ANY different than , say , the following exchange:

Male dominated forum:

Male Poster: I think most women are just ignorant about the way they comment on x to men can be seen as demeaning.

Female Poster: That's pretty offensive, I've also met some pretty ignorant men on this topic. Let's not be sexist.

Next Male Poster: What, you're a woman, your opinion isn't valid on this. Don't talk over the men with your fluff.

:roll:

I understand " ignorant" wasn't meant in an offensive way. But everyone is aware that generally " ignorant" IS used to be insulting and the vast majority of people would prefer to hear " I don't think most people of group x are aware are aware of" rather than " I think most people of x group are ignorant of" , regardless of the subject or the group.

And how can someone be accused of " talking over" someone else on a freaking comment stream? That's ridiculous.

I find it interesting that a man reading this discussion, where women are talking about what it feels like to have a strange male tell you to smile, cannot simply accept the validity of what women are saying about the situation. Instead, he has to take offense and claim he's being insulted. It's a shame that he couldn't have used this as a possible learning experience, perhaps re-evaluate his own actions in the every day world, ask himself if he ever says something similar to strange women himself, perhaps gain a greater understanding of what it's like to be a female in our society. But no, it's "you hurt my feelings! You're so mean!"

It's a fairly common response when women speak out about what they experience merely walking down the street. We're told that what we feel is wrong, and often met with anger as if we're the rude ones, for not responding positively to male attention (no matter how offensive or rude we might find it). Fortunately, there are a lot of good guys out there who might be ignorant of what it's like to be female in our society, but at least willing to listen and learn and gain a greater understanding.

[lascuba]

I find it interesting that a man reading this discussion, where women are talking about what it feels like to have a strange male tell you to smile, cannot simply accept the validity of what women are saying about the situation. Instead, he has to take offense and claim he's being insulted. It's a shame that he couldn't have used this as a possible learning experience, perhaps re-evaluate his own actions in the every day world, ask himself if he ever says something similar to strange women himself, perhaps gain a greater understanding of what it's like to be a female in our society. But no, it's "you hurt my feelings! You're so mean!"

It's a fairly common response when women speak out about what they experience merely walking down the street. We're told that what we feel is wrong, and often met with anger as if we're the rude ones, for not responding positively to male attention (no matter how offensive or rude we might find it). Fortunately, there are a lot of good guys out there who might be ignorant of what it's like to be female in our society, but at least willing to listen and learn and gain a greater understanding.

Not to mention that even if sexism against men were a thing (and it's not), the original comment was so innocuous that it's ludicrous to take offense to.

"It's interesting how men can be completely ignorant of the things that most women experience."

Really? That inspires a #NOTALLMEN response? I honest to god assumed Matthew was mocking the type of people who would see that as sexist against men, his comment was so ridiculous.

[justoneoftwo]

::sigh:: I hate to add to the thread jack, but are we really going to go with sexism against men is not a thing? Maybe it's not as big a deal, but try being a stay at home dad who's kids can't invite friends over because your a man. Or a male nurse or paralegal who doesn't want to be a doctor or lawyer. Or all kinds of other, admittedly smallish, things. The patriarchy hurts everyone, and I don't see what there is to be gained by saying sexism against men is not a thing.

[lascuba]

::sigh:: I hate to add to the thread jack, but are we really going to go with sexism against men is not a thing? Maybe it's not as big a deal, but try being a stay at home dad who's kids can't invite friends over because your a man. Or a male nurse or paralegal who doesn't want to be a doctor or lawyer. Or all kinds of other, admittedly smallish, things. The patriarchy hurts everyone, and I don't see what there is to be gained by saying sexism against men is not a thing.

It depends on what scale you're talking about. On a societal level--which is always the level I'm talking about wrt these issues--looking at existing power structures, sexism against men is no more a thing than racism against white people. There are all sorts of egregious individual examples of discrimination members of the dominant group, but no "-isms."

Seriously, that comment as an example of "sexism against men" is just fucking stupid. Of course men can be ignorant of what women experience. That's not controversial. Men don't have to deal with things women do so a lot of shit is just not on their radar.