All Things Dillard - Part 5

[MalteseBaby]

Totally random question, but talking about annoying missionaries made me think of Mormons and now I'm wondering if fundies feel the same level of disdain for Mormonism that they do for Catholicism. Or does Mormonism get more of a pass because it started in the same way (I'm hugely simplifying here) that Protestantism did with breaking away from the established hierarchy?

I can't speak for the radical Evangelical IFB sects, but as a person raised as a mainstream SBC Baptist in a very large church, my parents considered Catholics to be Christians. However, they did not consider Mormons to be Christians at all. I think this is true for most Baptists because the Mormons do not believe that Jesus was the only son of God- they believe we are all Jesus's literal spirit brothers and sisters. Disbelief in the Trinity knocks the cult out of the realm of Christianity.

The parents almost had strokes when I joined the Mormon church ( for about 2 months on a whim, but I was baptized- again, after the Baptist baptism- in an LDS church) when I was 18. It took 25 years to finally get my name off the Salt Lake City Temple main records for members. My ex- husband who joined at the same time I did, and whom I divorced a year later and did not see for over 20 years, says the same thing. It took decades to get his name off the official LDS membership records.

Since then, he has been and may still be a Catholic ( he married a Catholic).

I never went back to any organized religion after my abysmal experiences with the LDS cult. My beliefs are fairly liberal but probably still fall within the boundaries of " traditional Protestant, non- Calvinist" though, if push came to shove.

[EmmieJ]

I will agree with you there, although many people seem to be very insulted by being stopped on the street for any reason. (As an example people tell women to smile on the street all the time, it doesn't bug me when people stop me, but others are clearly affronted that someone assumes they can stop them and take up their time). I will say I have never run into someone who was proselytizing to people they did not know who did it politely or without insulting others. Sure I talk with my friends about their religions and they clearly wish I would join their religion but in non insulting ways.

A few years ago, as my son and I were walking out of our local Target to our car, there was a small group of people who were stopping passers-by and trying to give them a small bible and a flyer to their church. I tried to wave the guy off, because I have no interest in either a bible or a flyer about their church. But he didn't want to take no for an answer and said something like, "aren't you interested in reading the good word of Christ?" My son got embarrassed because this irritated me and I said very firmly, "No!" and walked on. He felt I should have just taken the bible politely and then thrown it away later.

I have mixed feelings about that encounter. I have an ever increasing intolerance for any religious group who approaches strangers in public and tries to hand them flyers, bibles, or pamphlets, or otherwise tries to invite them to their church. I used to be "live and let live," but fundies don't follow that rule and now I just find most of them annoying as all get out.

[EmmieJ]

I was raised Catholic and went through CCD - I also have numerous relatives who were members of the Clergy or Nuns (my family is Irish, so it was kind of a big deal; lol!). Not once in my life have I ever been told to go around attempting to convert anyone in that way or at all. If my Great-Uncle, a Priest for over fifty years, saw what the Dills were doing he would shake his head - because that isn't how you act if you're a good Christian. It's selfish and harmful, plain and simple.

I was raised Catholic too, and I attended CCD classes, had my 1st communion, got confirmed, the whole 9 yards. But I don't recall ever being encouraged to go out and convert others. In fact, it seemed more like "our doors are open, if anyone should want to come in" than "let's go searching for non-Catholics and see if they might want to convert."

[seasonsoflife]

Also why do they need your SSN, drivers license, checking account info, etc when you donate? This sounds like a total scam. Some leg humper is going to get their identity stolen.

This

I work in non profit development/fundraising and this looks beyond excessive (and really sketchy).

I have lost all the respect I had for Derrick and all hope he would be bringing some education and real work ethic to the family.

[samurai_sarah]

I was raised Catholic and went through CCD - I also have numerous relatives who were members of the Clergy or Nuns (my family is Irish, so it was kind of a big deal; lol!). Not once in my life have I ever been told to go around attempting to convert anyone in that way or at all. If my Great-Uncle, a Priest for over fifty years, saw what the Dills were doing he would shake his head - because that isn't how you act if you're a good Christian. It's selfish and harmful, plain and simple.

Another one raised Catholic here. I've also never been told to spread my faith. But then, I recall being taught that all religions can lead to god, which is a Catholic teaching found in "Lumen Gentium" (1964) i.e.: Vatican II. It's a bit more complicated than that, but the general gist that I was taught was "mind your own business, be a good human being, and if anyone is interested, they'll ask". I always thought that it was an excellent approach to the whole thing.

[singsingsing]

Proselytizing is not shouting insults at people or screaming at them that they're going to hell. And while I appreciate the lesson about residential schools, I'm well aware of what happened in that arena, as well as the broader implications of the genocide of the Native American peoples of Canada. I have major problems with anyone going into a country and demanding that the people there convert or face punishment, insulting or demeaning people who do not follow the religion they're pushing, or rounding up children, separating them from their families, and forcing them into a system meant to eradicate their own language and culture, all the while exposing them to horrific emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

I have no problem with "missionaries" going to another country, handing out Bibles and tracts, trying to educate people about their religion or convince them that it's the one true way. That's fine. I may not agree with what they're pushing or think it's a productive use of anyone's time, but I don't have much of a moral issue with it. I'm going to guess that Derick and Jill are doing something more along those lines, vs. systematic genocide, but you never know, I could be wrong.

[VelociRapture]

Proselytizing is not shouting insults at people or screaming at them that they're going to hell. And while I appreciate the lesson about residential schools, I'm well aware of what happened in that arena, as well as the broader implications of the genocide of the Native American peoples of Canada. I have major problems with anyone going into a country and demanding that the people there convert or face punishment, insulting or demeaning people who do not follow the religion they're pushing, or rounding up children, separating them from their families, and forcing them into a system meant to eradicate their own language and culture, all the while exposing them to horrific emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

I have no problem with "missionaries" going to another country, handing out Bibles and tracts, trying to educate people about their religion or convince them that it's the one true way. That's fine. I may not agree with what they're pushing or think it's a productive use of anyone's time, but I don't have much of a moral issue with it. I'm going to guess that Derick and Jill are doing something more along those lines, vs. systematic genocide, but you never know, I could be wrong.

I just laughed so loud at this. I can't even explain why, other than I am a terrible and horrible no good person.

[Rachel333]

The thing is, if you honestly believe that anyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell, as the Duggars and most other conservative American Christians do, how can you ever justify doing anything other than trying to get people to become Christians?

That's why I actually don't particularly mind proselytism because if their beliefs were true, the kind thing to do would be to convince others of it as well.

(Actually, I really like talking about religion so I'm usually happy to talk to missionaries, whether they're Mormon, Baptist, Muslim, or whatever. I've had a lot of friendly chats with Mormon missionaries and even had one missionary say I knew more about the church than she did.)

Oh, and regarding Mormons, most fundies/Evangelicals definitely don't consider them Christian. I remember my grandparents agonizing over that when they started following Glen Beck. I think they decided he could be an exception.

When I started getting involved in Mormonism (I was just curious, so I went to church, talked with missionaries, read the Book of Mormon, etc., all without intending to join the church) my parents told me that they would rather me start doing drugs than become Mormon. I guess drug users can still go to Heaven.

[Boogalou]

The problems I have with proselytizing are two fold.

First, it's incredibly arrogant. To think that your teeny tiny branch of Christianity is the only correct belief system out of the literally 1000s of different things people have believed in over the years is baffling to me. Not only that one believes that for themselves but believes it is the only correct way for everyone else in the world to live. How nice that you, of all the people on earth, are one of the few who have it right.

Secondly, there is often (and in Jill and Derrick's case definitely) a power differential between the person doing the converting and their targets. Why aren't Jill and Derrick staying in the US where there are literally millions of people who do not fall in line with their beliefs? Why are they so far from home in a country where they don't speak the language? They are taking advantage. People obviously have their own agency and can make their own decisions but when you are in a difficult situation it is often easier to get sucked in, and for Jill and Derrick it is easier for them to suck people in.

I get that they believe this is the right way to live, I just think it's arrogant and condescending.

[Exposedknees]

As far as Catholics and evangelism and conversion...Does anyone remember the Inquisition? ;)

[nastyhobbitses]

I don't have much issue with people proselytizing if they set it up as a "come to us if you're interested, we won't bother you if you're not" kind of deal. I used to work for a Jewish charity that was like that. If a community is interested in converting to (or, in the case of some communities, returning to) Judaism, they'll gladly help them set up Jewish religious schools, send over educational and religious materials, send rabbis over to help train teachers and clergy, help raise money for projects to improve the community, and raise awareness of the community among well-established Jewish communities in the US and Canada. But they NEVER approach communities; communities (and individuals) have to come to them. That, I think, is OK. If you want to spread the word of whatever god you pray to, show people how you adhere to those teachings and open a door to your religion, but never try to push people through it.

Also:

As far as Catholics and evangelism and conversion...Does anyone remember the Inquisition? ;)

Fun fact: the charity I worked for supports a community of Jews in El Salvador who were descended from Spanish Jews who were forcibly converted during the Inquisition, but they retained some of their old traditions. After a member of the community went to college and studied religion, they did some research and learned of their Jewish roots, and decided to return to Judaism. Now their town has a Hebrew School, a synagogue, and an American rabbi went over to train the synagogue's new clergy.

[Exposedknees]

The modern Catholic church can't keep enough priests on the payroll for its current population. Young people are leaving in droves. They've got a fun new Pope who is trying to repair their image. The good old days of Crusading and Inquisitions are over. The "cross" has been taken up by the jellicles and Fundies....

[memabelle]

Another cradle Catholic here. The Church has a very checkered past regarding forcing people to convert, but in the modern Church, the overall belief is that good people go to heaven. It's still through Jesus and the Christian God but you don't have to know him because he knows you, if that makes sense. So even if you live in a remote African or Asian village, even if you've never heard of Christianity or Catholicism, if you're a good person, you'll go to heaven. In addition, I think the current Catholic view on conversion is conversion by action and example. I have a lot of problems with Catholicism and don't consider myself Catholic anymore but I would choose the Catholic view on these topics over fundie views hands down any day of the week.

[jacduggar]

I get offended for being told to smile because it's insanely rude - not because the person is taking up my time. My lips naturally turn downwards, yet people (almost always older men, which just creeps me out) don't stop to consider that my face just looks that way when I'm going about my day - they just tell me to smile more.

If I smiled all the time they'd think I'm a psycho. Can't win either way!

I'm this way too. I naturally look grumpy. It annoys me to no end when old men tell me to smile, cheer up, it's not that bad, etc. Just let me live my damn life!

[ClaraOswin]

Every time the smile thing is brought up this is all I can think of...

[16strong]

I'm this way too. I naturally look grumpy. It annoys me to no end when old men tell me to smile, cheer up, it's not that bad, etc. Just let me live my damn life!

What's worse is that when you do smile, people demand to know why you're smiling. Just because I don't walk around with a smile plastered on my face doesn't mean that I don't occasionally find something that's worth it. I just can't see getting it up for every Tom, Dick, and Harry. If you want me to smile, try harder.

[DeFrauder]

I still don't like religious missionaries, but the imperialist-era style of mission work is a different beast from what missionary work is now. I have a lot of missionaries in my family and in mission training they actually make a point of talking about what 19th (ish) century missionaries did wrong so they can get as far away from that as possible. Most modern missionaries are as horrified by what missionaries did to the Inuit and other peoples as anyone else. It wasn't just missionaries doing that back then, either; even a lot of people who weren't particularly religious believed in cultural imperialism back then and did very similar things to what the missionaries did.

(A lot of creationists now like to talk about how social Darwinism was a major justification for racism and imperialism, which is true, but they don't talk about how Christianity was used that way as well.)

The last residential school in Canada closed in the 1990s. All events I described took place well into the second half of the 20th century. Its not something that just happened in the 19th century.

The Americans have been purposely spreading Pentecostalism and other forms of Protestantism in Latin America, especially Central America over the last 40 years. Protestant missionaries were working especially hard during the 1980s at the height of the cold war. The fear was that Catholic Liberation Theology had become too influential and that it was too Marxist. A lot of people died. A lot of nuns, brothers and priests died.

[DeFrauder]

The problems I have with proselytizing are two fold.

First, it's incredibly arrogant. To think that your teeny tiny branch of Christianity is the only correct belief system out of the literally 1000s of different things people have believed in over the years is baffling to me. Not only that one believes that for themselves but believes it is the only correct way for everyone else in the world to live. How nice that you, of all the people on earth, are one of the few who have it right.

Secondly, there is often (and in Jill and Derrick's case definitely) a power differential between the person doing the converting and their targets. Why aren't Jill and Derrick staying in the US where there are literally millions of people who do not fall in line with their beliefs? Why are they so far from home in a country where they don't speak the language? They are taking advantage. People obviously have their own agency and can make their own decisions but when you are in a difficult situation it is often easier to get sucked in, and for Jill and Derrick it is easier for them to suck people in.

I get that they believe this is the right way to live, I just think it's arrogant and condescending.

There are also plenty of poor people in the USA (and Arkansas they didn't have to move) if their mission is to help people. That is not as interesting I guess, or as politically useful.

How would their fundraising go over if they said: "give us money so we can help the poor people living in the Appalachians"?

[princessmahina]

Yet another Catholic here. I was taught in Catholic school (and in Mass) that the most effective method of evangelization was to do loads of charity work. Often, when people see you doing so much, they ask why. That's when you share that you're Catholic, that charity work is a major tenant of your faith, and that you do it to glorify God.

I don't really get Jill and Derick style missionary work. Do they just accost random people in the street? Stand on a corner with pamphlets, shouting about the end times? Set up a Maxwell-style booth at the carnival? What exactly is it that they're doing? Is any of it productive and providing a necessary service to the community? I believe that it's necessary to be spiritually nourished, as well as physically, but all the faith in the world isn't going to help you if you're starving and homeless.

[MatthewDuggar]

Interesting! I guess the Catholic church and schools I grew up with were a bit more into "spreading the good news" than the majority of them out there that ya'll went to. Keep in mind, I'm talking about sharing your faith and well as charitable acts off kindness vs. forcing someone to sign on the dotted line to "convert".

Back to the Dillards... I hope they start to post more as they get acclimated to their new culture. I predict they will become pretty regular with the social media once they start getting homesick for chickenetti and going to Walmart. Speaking of which, there is one Walmart in El Salvador (providing they live there)

[formergothardite]

Proselytizing is not shouting insults at people or screaming at them that they're going to hell. And while I appreciate the lesson about residential schools, I'm well aware of what happened in that arena, as well as the broader implications of the genocide of the Native American peoples of Canada. I have major problems with anyone going into a country and demanding that the people there convert or face punishment, insulting or demeaning people who do not follow the religion they're pushing, or rounding up children, separating them from their families, and forcing them into a system meant to eradicate their own language and culture, all the while exposing them to horrific emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

I have no problem with "missionaries" going to another country, handing out Bibles and tracts, trying to educate people about their religion or convince them that it's the one true way. That's fine. I may not agree with what they're pushing or think it's a productive use of anyone's time, but I don't have much of a moral issue with it. I'm going to guess that Derick and Jill are doing something more along those lines, vs. systematic genocide, but you never know, I could be wrong.

I don't have a problem if people only do this to adults, even though I think it is annoying as hell, but IME many missionaries target children too. I haven't experienced it with missionaries in my area, but with various church groups. Just this 4th of July we had to deal with three churches trying to convert children while we were trying to watch fireworks. My oldest is very sensitive and this sort of stuff bothers her. I'm not talking about screaming at kids that they are going to hell. They were walking around, trying to gather groups of children to watch them make balloon animals or do magic tricks and then after they had a captive audience they would start telling them that they needed to be "saved" or they would go to hell when they died.

[nolongerIFBx]

Never forget, Fundie=Racist, always, no matter how "sweet" they act.

While I am sure that I do have some unconscious bias, I do find that remark offensive. And it is just as wrong to paint all fundies with the same racist brush as it is for them to paint every one not like them as "not doing Christianity right". One of, if not the, reason racism exists is because we look at people as groups instead of as individuals with their own thoughts, feelings, and actions. It would be more accurate to say that many or the majority of fundies appear to be racist based on their comments just as Derrick could have founda more tactful way to make his statement.

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm a little shocked that anyone here is okay with people trying to force their religion on others. I get like setting up a booth and explaining it if people approach you, but handing out tracks and telling randoms they are going to hell is bothersome. FormerGothardite's example is a good one too, that's absolutely shitty that people do that to children.

I remember people used to stand outside my high school and try to hand us bibles, and they only left when other students loudly proclaimed they were using them for "rolling paper."

And who the fuck likes people showing up at their door? That's the worst.

[Srilaura]

Agreed ^^^^^

[lascuba]

While I am sure that I do have some unconscious bias, I do find that remark offensive. And it is just as wrong to paint all fundies with the same racist brush as it is for them to paint every one not like them as "not doing Christianity right". One of, if not the, reason racism exists is because we look at people as groups instead of as individuals with their own thoughts, feelings, and actions. It would be more accurate to say that many or the majority of fundies appear to be racist based on their comments just as Derrick could have founda more tactful way to make his statement.

No, it wouldn't be more accurate to say that. Racism is systemic and is built into the very fabric of society in general and American Christian fundamentalism in particular. Saying it's just as wrong to point out out the very real problems of the predominant group as it is for member of that group to be called out as racist is completely asinine. The power differential is huge.