Bringing Up Bates

[Kira]

The answer is simple! They are beginning to cost TLC too much money! The Duggar's demand more money, cost of producing the show, set people start saying things like if JimBob, Michelle or one of the children need something, they jump. It wouldn't surprise me if Michelle hasn't become demanding like Katie G. and look what they did too her. Slow leaks to the rag mags trying to discredit them. I find it funny that I complained on the Smuggler blog that I was tired of seeing the little kids when they go somewhere nice, dressed like their clothes came from some mission barrel. That changed next season. I got really mad when they showed all the clothes and baby things stored in the warehouse. Things that could have been donated to some charity. I thought the Duggar's don't believe in using credit cards. I've seen JB use them on several occasions. Never watched the show but remember how fast Honey Boo was pulled. Do you really know what happened their?

June starting dating the man who molested her daughter and another relative. She also stole her daughter's money to buy him a car.

TLC didn't throw Kate Gosselin under the bus. Their original show was cancelled because Jon was caught cheating. The photos where everywhere. I think the Gosselins didn't want that to play out on tv. Since then there have been a few specials about Kate and the kids. I think they have a new show coming up called "Kate Plus Eight".

Can someone give me an example of TLC throwing the Duggars under the bus? I don't see it. I also doubt they were going to get rid of the Duggars when the Bates show premiered.

I'm almost sure that Jim Bob was using a debit card.

[Idolatry]

Many people who speak regional dialects are able to switch from dialect to standard English when the situation demands. The Bates family may or may not be able to do that, but I am not going to draw conclusions based on expressions that could be colloquialisms. As for policing their grammar and making judgments of their education level from it....uh....do you ever notice the often not-quite-standard grammar of the posts on this board?

That thick, difficult accent is regional, fine. But not their lack of basic English.

This is not "regional dialect" or a "colloquialism." That's insulting. I'm from a place not too different from rural TN. Anyone there with part of a high school education doesn't say "you was" and "we seen it," including my own marginally educated parents. Most Southern people know how to speak English, and I doubt anyone at Vanderbilt is talking like that. The Duggars certainly are not, and they didn't exactly go to Eton. So, I don't think it's fair to say that TN can't speak English.

This isn't ending a sentence with a preposition or splitting an infinitive. This is basic English grammar a toddler should know. My parents don't watch secular TV. If they did, even they would be horrified that people that sound like this are representing their beliefs to the world. Have you ever heard anyone talk like that on reality TV???

[princessmahina]

I really hope that Erin has never read the IBLP medical journals on miscarriages. But since even my family who wasn't as deep into ATI as they are had them on the shelves, I bet Gil and Kelly do to.

Could you elaborate on what they teach on miscarriages? Do they blame it on the woman's sin?

[formergothardite]

Could you elaborate on what they teach on miscarriages? Do they blame it on the woman's sin?

I wish I could find somewhere online where it has been published, but lots of his most crazy stuff is hard to find. Basically it is that miscarriages can be caused by sinning, not giving enough to God, having something sinful in the house, the woman being unhappy, and just in general blaming the woman for it happening. All this is presented along with stories of people who follow Gothard's teachings and are finally able to have children.

[singsingsing]

That thick, difficult accent is regional, fine. But not their lack of basic English.

This is not "regional dialect" or a "colloquialism." That's insulting. I'm from a place not too different from rural TN. Anyone there with part of a high school education doesn't say "you was" and "we seen it," including my own marginally educated parents. Most Southern people know how to speak English, and I doubt anyone at Vanderbilt is talking like that. The Duggars certainly are not, and they didn't exactly go to Eton. So, I don't think it's fair to say that TN can't speak English.

This isn't ending a sentence with a preposition or splitting an infinitive. This is basic English grammar a toddler should know. My parents don't watch secular TV. If they did, even they would be horrified that people that sound like this are representing their beliefs to the world. Have you ever heard anyone talk like that on reality TV???

Maybe you need to examine your own prejudices if you find a non-standard dialect so incredibly disgusting. Not everyone who listens to people who speak with such a dialect thinks they sound unintelligent, uneducated, or that they're an embarrassment to their region.

[TXCATLADY]

I grew up in Dallas and now I live outside Nashville TN. My experience is that if you leave the metropolitan area by let's say 50 miles or more you will find the most deplorable grammar you have ever heard. I can understand you wanting to defend rural areas and maybe this isn't the case for your area. But in TN it's unfortunately very common.

[moreorlessnu]

I felt bad for Erin in that scene in the store where Carlin gives her the "I'm proud of you speech". Erin looked like she was busy counting, making sure she had all the items she intended to buy, Carlin interrupts w/ her speech and Erin is forced to stop to deal with it. It's bad enough that Erin has to deal w/ her miscarriages, and her relatives' ease with fertility w/o having to deal with other people's expectations of how Erin is supposed to respond to various situations. It seemed like an unnecessary burden to put on Erin on top of having to prepare for the shower.

I can see how it would be easy for Erin to focus on the mechanics of collecting the party favors/prizes for the shower (or whatever they were shopping for) and not have to deal w/ the emotional aspect of it...until Carlin reminds her of it. As another poster said above, some of the younger girls (like Carlin) seemed to be a little too "on" during the episode. They might be very excited for another chance at television and the benefits it provides to the family. If this speech wasn't spontaneous on Carlin's part, and if it was pre-planned for the show then that is a cruel thing to do to Erin.

[caitiedid313]

That thick, difficult accent is regional, fine. But not their lack of basic English.

This is not "regional dialect" or a "colloquialism." That's insulting. I'm from a place not too different from rural TN. Anyone there with part of a high school education doesn't say "you was" and "we seen it," including my own marginally educated parents. Most Southern people know how to speak English, and I doubt anyone at Vanderbilt is talking like that. The Duggars certainly are not, and they didn't exactly go to Eton. So, I don't think it's fair to say that TN can't speak English.

This isn't ending a sentence with a preposition or splitting an infinitive. This is basic English grammar a toddler should know. My parents don't watch secular TV. If they did, even they would be horrified that people that sound like this are representing their beliefs to the world. Have you ever heard anyone talk like that on reality TV???

Leah & Corey from Teen Mom 2 talk like that all the time. I've heard them both say "I seen," and let's not forget the time that Leah said she had to go "bath" (not bathe, but bath with the short "a" sound) the babies. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily representative of where they live (WV) just like Bateses' speech isn't representative of that of all of the speakers in TN. However, I have heard "I/we seen" several times before, and it tends to occur more often when the speaker lives in a more rural place. Regardless, it's bad, and the grammar lover in me cringes every. single. time.

Other grammar things I cannot stand that I've heard these families use:

1. It's the Bates family or the Bateses. Bates is just their last name, not the plural form used for the group of them. (Seriously, how can you not know the plural of your own last name? :angry-banghead:)

2. The use of the word "whenever" in place of when while referencing a one-time event. Jill Duggar and one of the Bates boys in this first episode have both used it, although it's definitely habitual with Jill ("whenever mama brought Josie home from the hospital..." [direct quote] or something like "whenever Derick proposed").

[Rachel333]

I'm a reformed grammar fascist. :lol: I don't think there's anything wrong with using incorrect grammar in spoken language as long as everyone can understand it. Language changes and we wouldn't have the language we do now if grammar rules had always been strictly enforced/

[realist51]

I spent my high school and college years in a rural area. Many of my neighbors used what might be considered deplorable grammar, but, since their "errors" (for example, "I seen it") were pattern-driven and understandable to others in their community, I would consider that a dialect or variation. Dialects can occur within many different groups including those determined by education level or socio-economic status. I have also seen people move very fluidly into and out of these kinds of dialects in order to fit in with whatever social group they were with. It is possible that the Bates children are able to do that. Using non-standard English might be an indicator of less formal education, but it is in no way an indicator of less intelligence.

And, I'm sorry, but, if we were to apply the same standards of correctness to the posters on FJ, we would have to conclude that there are many uneducated or unintelligent posters here, and I am not just referring to split infinitives. There are many instances of mangled grammar. I assume that's because some people have had more formal schooling than others or that some people just are not that interested in or tuned in to the finer details of grammar, and I draw no further conclusions from it. I also concur that language changes, and sometimes we grammarians have to lighten up and roll with the changes.

[Idolatry]

Leah & Corey from Teen Mom 2 talk like that all the time. I've heard them both say "I seen," and let's not forget the time that Leah said she had to go "bath" (not bathe, but bath with the short "a" sound) the babies. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily representative of where they live (WV) just like Bateses' speech isn't representative of that of all of the speakers in TN. However, I have heard "I/we seen" several times before, and it tends to occur more often when the speaker lives in a more rural place. Regardless, it's bad, and the grammar lover in me cringes every. single. time.

Other grammar things I cannot stand that I've heard these families use:

1. It's the Bates family or the Bateses. Bates is just their last name, not the plural form used for the group of them. (Seriously, how can you not know the plural of your own last name? :angry-banghead:)

2. The use of the word "whenever" in place of when while referencing a one-time event. Jill Duggar and one of the Bates boys in this first episode have both used it, although it's definitely habitual with Jill ("whenever mama brought Josie home from the hospital..." [direct quote] or something like "whenever Derick proposed").

Ah, there's a beacon of education and intelligence. The WV Teen Mom cast, how could I forget? Bath-ing the girlses!

[caitiedid313]

Ah, there's a beacon of education and intelligence. The WV Teen Mom cast, how could I forget? Bath-ing the girlses!

Yeah, they're pretty terrible. I'm a little ashamed to admit I watch TM2, which is weird considering in my real life I am much less likely to admit to watching anything with the Duggars and Bateses.

I feel like all of the families on these programs could benefit from some remedial grammar instruction. I don't speak with perfect grammar in casual conversation, but if it's for something official I would try to appear as articulate as possible--and I'm not on tv trying to promote my family brand and the homeskoolin' Gothard lifestyle.

[yetanothermeg]

Ah, there's a beacon of education and intelligence. The WV Teen Mom cast, how could I forget? Bath-ing the girlses!

Actually 'bath' as a verb is correct in British English. One would say, "I am going to bath the girls." 'Bathe' is American English. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Appalachian English has similarities to Elizabethan English.

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.c ... sh/bathe_1

There are more scholarly articles regarding Appalachian English, but if you scroll to the bottom here, you will find a nice summary:

http://www.smithmountainlake.com/lifeSt ... /wb/251435

[Firiel]

That thick, difficult accent is regional, fine. But not their lack of basic English.

This is not "regional dialect" or a "colloquialism." That's insulting. I'm from a place not too different from rural TN. Anyone there with part of a high school education doesn't say "you was" and "we seen it," including my own marginally educated parents. Most Southern people know how to speak English, and I doubt anyone at Vanderbilt is talking like that. The Duggars certainly are not, and they didn't exactly go to Eton. So, I don't think it's fair to say that TN can't speak English.

This isn't ending a sentence with a preposition or splitting an infinitive. This is basic English grammar a toddler should know. My parents don't watch secular TV. If they did, even they would be horrified that people that sound like this are representing their beliefs to the world. Have you ever heard anyone talk like that on reality TV???

I'm not sure why you are applying "basic English grammar" to a dialect. Regional dialects have their own grammar that often differs from the grammar of the "parent" language. Watch them speak. Their "mistakes" are generally consistent. Of course people aren't using a traditionally Southern dialect when at Vanderbilt, the same reason I don't write in text speech for a formal paper or a bilingual immigrant might speech Spanglish at a family gathering. Your reasoning is the same reasoning people use to disparage black people who may speak Ebonics, which is also a dialect with distinct grammar rules.

[gustava]

I grew up in Dallas and now I live outside Nashville TN. My experience is that if you leave the metropolitan area by let's say 50 miles or more you will find the most deplorable grammar you have ever heard. I can understand you wanting to defend rural areas and maybe this isn't the case for your area. But in TN it's unfortunately very common.

Bad grammar does not equal stupid.

[gustava]

I spent my high school and college years in a rural area. Many of my neighbors used what might be considered deplorable grammar, but, since their "errors" (for example, "I seen it") were pattern-driven and understandable to others in their community, I would consider that a dialect or variation. Dialects can occur within many different groups including those determined by education level or socio-economic status. I have also seen people move very fluidly into and out of these kinds of dialects in order to fit in with whatever social group they were with. It is possible that the Bates children are able to do that. Using non-standard English might be an indicator of less formal education, but it is in no way an indicator of less intelligence.

And, I'm sorry, but, if we were to apply the same standards of correctness to the posters on FJ, we would have to conclude that there are many uneducated or unintelligent posters here, and I am not just referring to split infinitives. There are many instances of mangled grammar. I assume that's because some people have had more formal schooling than others or that some people just are not that interested in or tuned in to the finer details of grammar, and I draw no further conclusions from it. I also concur that language changes, and sometimes we grammarians have to lighten up and roll with the changes.

[Idolatry]

Actually 'bath' as a verb is correct in British English. One would say, "I am going to bath the girls." 'Bathe' is American English. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Appalachian English has similarities to Elizabethan English.

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.c ... sh/bathe_1

There are more scholarly articles regarding Appalachian English, but if you scroll to the bottom here, you will find a nice summary:

http://www.smithmountainlake.com/lifeSt ... /wb/251435

So that's what this is, Appalachian? How about "we seen her bath-ing the girlses"? That totally sounds Elizabethan and educated.

[Idolatry]

I'm not sure why you are applying "basic English grammar" to a dialect. Regional dialects have their own grammar that often differs from the grammar of the "parent" language. Watch them speak. Their "mistakes" are generally consistent. Of course people aren't using a traditionally Southern dialect when at Vanderbilt, the same reason I don't write in text speech for a formal paper or a bilingual immigrant might speech Spanglish at a family gathering. Your reasoning is the same reasoning people use to disparage black people who may speak Ebonics, which is also a dialect with distinct grammar rules.

So you're saying "I/we seen" on freaking national TV is not a mistake? Or just that I'm racist?

[RosyDaisy]

I agree with Paperplate. Grammar relates to education, not intelligence. I should know, as I am a retired college English professor.

No it doesn't. I'm a college educated woman from Alabama. When I am around family and friends, proper grammar flies out the window. In a professional or public setting, the redneck grammar flies out the window.

[RosyDaisy]

Meaning, you think her grin & accent is fake?

She sounds exactly like some of my friends and relatives back home (of various races). Some of them are sickly syrupy sweet, but it isn't fake, its their real personality. And some of them are quite secular, too.

I wasn't referring to her accent. A shit eatin' grin is a smug smile. Southern charm has to do with mannerisms. I shouldn't have to explain any of this to someone from Appalachia.

[Firiel]

So you're saying "I/we seen" on freaking national TV is not a mistake? Or just that I'm racist?

I'm saying that using "I/we seen" on national TV is not a mistake anymore than someone speaking Spanish or Spanglish or Creole around their family would be a mistake. It is a dialect with grammatical constructs of its own. There is no such thing as a "bad" or "primitive" language or dialect. Language evolves.

And I'm not saying you are racist, but the idea that any particular dialect is "bad" and reflects a lack of intelligence has been used to justify classism and racism pretty regularly throughout the years.

[Paperplate]

So you're saying "I/we seen" on freaking national TV is not a mistake? Or just that I'm racist?

It is not a grammatical mistake. They are just speaking their mother tongue.

It might be a mistake to talk like that if they want to appeal to people who do not understand that dialects have their own grammar.

I'm not particularly fond of their way of speaking either, but that doesn't matter. It is a legitimate dialect, whether we like it or not.

Not everyone needs to speak the same. Linguistic variation is something that is to be embraced, not admonished. Languages/dialects/accents are part of culture. We don't want to take that away from people.

All of you Americans are making "mistakes" when you speak English if I look at you through my British English eyes. I don't think you're stupid just because you speak a different language/dialect or even just have a different accent.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Source: I am a linguist.

Now, if the Bates Bateses don't know how to use Standard American English in formal settings, like when writing official letter or something, that would actually show their lack of education (again, not their lack of intelligence). But I think we already know that they're not the most educated people.

[Alye]

I don't know anything about how much grammar is taught in American schools being Australian myself but I can talk of my own experience. At the schools I went to Grammar wasn't a focus of my English lessons. Reading and Comprehension were. I have deplorable grammar. I also have a bachelor's degree (from a university in the top 1% world wide) and I'm working on post-grad. I am certainly not uneducated. Grammar is often not a focus in even public schools now.

[HereticHick]

I wasn't referring to her accent. A shit eatin' grin is a smug smile. Southern charm has to do with mannerisms. I shouldn't have to explain any of this to someone from Appalachia.

Are you sure? Because you know how stupid we are. You might need to break it all down into monosyllables for me.

And then, for good measure, scream at me some more about how I love the Bates because I don't have inchoate rage for them oozing out of every pore. :?

[Idolatry]

I'm going to drop this now, since clearly the Bates circle jerk is going to keep defending going on TV to say things like "you was" and "i/we seen" which is humiliating.

This is why TLC cast the Duggars, and not the Bates. The Duggars have understandable accents, and their English has a few quirks and fundie-isms, but sounds normal to most Americans, average if you will. It plays into the Duggar "just like us" schtick that seems to have worked for a billion seasons. Now, if you wanted to show a stereotype fundie family you'd pick someone like the Bates, and then you'd edit them to sound just like this without giving them another take.

I swear the TLC edit of the Bates was much kinder. I really don't remember them sounding like this.

OK, I'm done, you can continue your Bates circle jerk.