Bringing Up Bates

[gustava]

No it doesn't. I'm a college educated woman from Alabama. When I am around family and friends, proper grammar flies out the window. In a professional or public setting, the redneck grammar flies out the window.

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. My point is that poor grammar is not necessarily an indicator of lack of intelligence.

[gustava]

I don't know anything about how much grammar is taught in American schools being Australian myself but I can talk of my own experience. At the schools I went to Grammar wasn't a focus of my English lessons. Reading and Comprehension were. I have deplorable grammar. I also have a bachelor's degree (from a university in the top 1% world wide) and I'm working on post-grad. I am certainly not uneducated. Grammar is often not a focus in even public schools now.

Alye... Grammar doesn't have to be taught in order to be used. Most of us learn to write grammatically correctly by reading, and reading, and reading. You may not be able to pares a sentence, but, based on your posts, your writing is grammatically correct.

[gustava]

I'm going to drop this now, since clearly the Bates circle jerk is going to keep defending going on TV to say things like "you was" and "i/we seen" which is humiliating.

This is why TLC cast the Duggars, and not the Bates. The Duggars have understandable accents, and their English has a few quirks and fundie-isms, but sounds normal to most Americans, average if you will. It plays into the Duggar "just like us" schtick that seems to have worked for a billion seasons. Now, if you wanted to show a stereotype fundie family you'd pick someone like the Bates, and then you'd edit them to sound just like this without giving them another take.

I swear the TLC edit of the Bates was much kinder. I really don't remember them sounding like this.

OK, I'm done, you can continue your Bates circle jerk.

Tata, darlin'

[Hisey]

I felt bad for Erin in that scene in the store where Carlin gives her the "I'm proud of you speech". Erin looked like she was busy counting, making sure she had all the items she intended to buy, Carlin interrupts w/ her speech and Erin is forced to stop to deal with it. It's bad enough that Erin has to deal w/ her miscarriages, and her relatives' ease with fertility w/o having to deal with other people's expectations of how Erin is supposed to respond to various situations. It seemed like an unnecessary burden to put on Erin on top of having to prepare for the shower.

I can see how it would be easy for Erin to focus on the mechanics of collecting the party favors/prizes for the shower (or whatever they were shopping for) and not have to deal w/ the emotional aspect of it...until Carlin reminds her of it. As another poster said above, some of the younger girls (like Carlin) seemed to be a little too "on" during the episode. They might be very excited for another chance at television and the benefits it provides to the family. If this speech wasn't spontaneous on Carlin's part, and if it was pre-planned for the show then that is a cruel thing to do to Erin.

Spontaneous? How in the world could it be spontaneous?

Erin and Chad decided to talk about their miscarriage on the show. The entire Bates family knows this. It is the subject of interviews with Erin and Chad. It's a big focus of the first show.

Then a cameraman drives with Erin and Carlin to the store to buy stuff for the shower. The cameraman follows them around. He is standing just a few feet away from them, dangling that furry sound thing. That's when Carlin chooses to say her thing.

Certainly, Carlin is fully aware that what she says will be filmed and will probably end up on TV. Clearly she doesn't think, "Erin and I are having a private moment where I can share some feelings of mine." Instead, she is probably thinking, "Here's a chance to show the audience that my family and I support Erin and notice that this might be hard for her."

The moment was about Carlin, not about Erin. If it was about Erin, Carlin would've told her to ditch the cameraman and when they were out of earshot, she would've whispered, "This must be hard! You are doing great!"

I don't think it was just Carlin. I think the whole family was invested in showing support to Erin. I'm not saying they DIDN'T support her, I'm sure they do. I'm saying that while on camera they seemed pretty invested in demonstrating that support.

[RosyDaisy]

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. My point is that poor grammar is not necessarily an indicator of lack of intelligence.

I agree.

[meep]

I just watched the show.

- Seriously, how many times do we have to hear about that damn tree service?! They talk about it nearly every time they have had face time on every show they've been on ever. You own a tree service. We get it.

- If anyone is a bitch, it's Carlin. By the comments on this board, I was expecting a sweet exchange. Instead, I see Erin who is clearly not in the mood to keep on talking and talking about this, let alone in a public store. Worse timing ever. It did feel very forced and not genuine.

- I just get a feeling (and maybe it's wrong but I'm being honest) that the show (family?) is REALY exploiting this whole miscarriage thing. I know Chad and Erin said they wanted to share their story but damn. Erin doesn't look happy at all to me around her family, only when she's with Chad alone.

- Most of the show was just plain utterly boring.

And of course, I'm going to keep watching. Because I can't help myself. Ugh.

[Firiel]

I'm going to drop this now, since clearly the Bates circle jerk is going to keep defending going on TV to say things like "you was" and "i/we seen" which is humiliating.

This is why TLC cast the Duggars, and not the Bates. The Duggars have understandable accents, and their English has a few quirks and fundie-isms, but sounds normal to most Americans, average if you will. It plays into the Duggar "just like us" schtick that seems to have worked for a billion seasons. Now, if you wanted to show a stereotype fundie family you'd pick someone like the Bates, and then you'd edit them to sound just like this without giving them another take.

I swear the TLC edit of the Bates was much kinder. I really don't remember them sounding like this.

OK, I'm done, you can continue your Bates circle jerk.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You are completely right. The linguist and the college English professor (and others, including me-- I just have an MA in English and am informed but by no means an expert) are participating in a Bates circle jerk by calling you out on your misunderstanding of dialect. If that's what helps you feel better about what are ultimately classist beliefs about language and culture, then so be it.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I just watched the show.

- Seriously, how many times do we have to hear about that damn tree service?! They talk about it nearly every time they have had face time on every show they've been on ever. You own a tree service. We get it.

- If anyone is a bitch, it's Carlin. By the comments on this board, I was expecting a sweet exchange. Instead, I see Erin who is clearly not in the mood to keep on talking and talking about this, let alone in a public store. Worse timing ever. It did feel very forced and not genuine.

- I just get a feeling (and maybe it's wrong but I'm being honest) that the show (family?) is REALY exploiting this whole miscarriage thing. I know Chad and Erin said they wanted to share their story but damn. Erin doesn't look happy at all to me around her family, only when she's with Chad alone.

- Most of the show was just plain utterly boring.

And of course, I'm going to keep watching. Because I can't help myself. Ugh.

This is a new show on a new TV channel with a new audience, they need to talk about how they make money. At least they're truthful about it and the challenges of providing for 19 kids, as opposed to the Duggars who pretend that their entire house and everything in it was paid for by their real estate ventures, not TLC.

I don't think the show is exploiting the miscarriages, at least not without Erin's permission as you implied. I think Erin very much wants to tell her story. And I don't think she's "only happy when she's around Chad," rather I think she looked just as upset with or without him. But, the fact is, you can't talk about babies and still look like decent human beings without acknowledging the fact that Erin is going through MULTIPLE (though they only talked about one in this episode) miscarriages.

[formergothardite]

I think the constant bringing up of the tree service is to try and make people forget that Gil is a first class grifter. No, Gil wants to pretend he has always been a man who worked hard to support his family.

Unless Carlin specifically told Erin that she was going to make that speech in the store in front of cameras and got her approval it was in extremely poor taste and should not have been done. Yes, it made a good television moment, but it just wasn't a nice thing to force onto someone without their permission. So I hope this was all planned.

[Hisey]

I don't think Carlin thought of it on her own. She is only 16 and pretty unsophisticated. I think the producers and Gil decided they needed to show the family supporting Erin. So someone, probably Gil, took Carlin aside and said, "While the camera is running, be sure to let Erin know that you think she's doing great. We want to show people how we support her."

The thing is, infertility is a really sad thing. Carlin's encouragement meant nothing if it is done at Gil's behest. Since the cameraman was just a foot or two away from them, I'm sure Erin felt Carlin's words were insincere and just done for the camera. Otherwise, wouldn't Carlin have done the same thing AWAY from the camera?

This is a really nice family that seems happy. But if there are more exploitive moments like this one, the closeness that is obvious right now is going to begin to shatter. Soon, they'll be filming Erin's miscarriages with their iphones, the way the older duggars did when their little brother fell through the floor.

[Alye]

Alye... Grammar doesn't have to be taught in order to be used. Most of us learn to write grammatically correctly by reading, and reading, and reading. You may not be able to pares a sentence, but, based on your posts, your writing is grammatically correct.

I do know how to parse (I'm gathering that was a typo) a sentence but I learnt that in undergraduate Latin and not primary school, high school or even undergraduate english which was my main point. GRAMMAR IS NOT GENERALLY TAUGHT IN MY COUNTRY. My grandparents grammar is better than mine and they never went to high school.

You haven't heard me speak. My mother (a primary school teacher) is always correcting my grammar. Also I put a lot more thought into what I say when I post things online as people are a lot more petty and closed minded on the Internet than they are in person. Anonymity does that. This thread is a good example (and yes I am aware that I am a part of that). Perhaps I should tell you that I rely heavily on word processing or that at 27 who vs whom still confuses me.

We can't really know whether the Bates children are uneducated without sitting down and having a good look at their curricula.

Personally, I think we here at FJ need to get over ourselves. We are fighting over the most ridiculous things. We all have agreed that they have dangerous beliefs. Who cares if one person thinks they are more likeable than the Duggars? No one here has said that makes their beliefs any less dangerous. And it certainly doesn't make this thread a circle jerk.

I shall now take my own advice.

[HereticHick]

Well put Hisey. As I've said before, one of the reasons I am interested in "Bringing Up Bates" is to see how it is edited and scripted, especially compared to (and in reaction to) the "Infinite Number Kids and Counting" show. Will there be fewer, or more, exploitative moments? Will there be boring trips to the dentist? Will there be totally contrived one-off charity events? Can the UP network afford to bankroll the big international vacations that the Duggars get from TLC? Will there be explanatory text in the episodes (I don't believe there was in the debut episode)? Will there be spin off books & book tours?

And it would be nice to be able to discuss that calmly without someone screaming at me for being a fundy-coddler and a bad grammar-enabler.

I'm from Appalachia. My Cherokee ancestors were living there long before most everyone else's ancestors arrived on this continent. I have no problem understanding the Bates. Or the Duggars.

Do I think that makes me an ignorant hick? No.

Do I fault any of you if you say you have a hard time understanding them? No.

Hell, I sometimes turn on the subtitles when I watch British TV! :)

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm going to drop this now, since clearly the Bates circle jerk is going to keep defending going on TV to say things like "you was" and "i/we seen" which is humiliating.

This is why TLC cast the Duggars, and not the Bates. The Duggars have understandable accents, and their English has a few quirks and fundie-isms, but sounds normal to most Americans, average if you will. It plays into the Duggar "just like us" schtick that seems to have worked for a billion seasons. Now, if you wanted to show a stereotype fundie family you'd pick someone like the Bates, and then you'd edit them to sound just like this without giving them another take.

I swear the TLC edit of the Bates was much kinder. I really don't remember them sounding like this.

OK, I'm done, you can continue your Bates circle jerk.

If this is what you are taking from the discussion about dialects, then I really don't think you have room to call anyone else uneducated.

[feministxtian]

About accents and dialects...I am from the south...the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. I can turn off and on my accent when it suits me. If I'm back home with my friends...we speak "southern". If I'm giving a presentation to some engineers here in Nevada, I speak standard English. If I'm with my Cuban cousins in Miami, I speak Spanglish. If I'm trying to sweet talk my southern husband I sound like someone out of Steel Magnolias.

If one goes up to Gloucester County and run into a Guineaman, you won't understand a WORD he says. They have their own dialect. However, they are also able to switch to standard English when needed.

Unfortunately, folks associate accents, especially southern accents with either lack of intelligence or lack of education. If you want to be TOTALLY disabused of that notion, go watch some reruns of Rocket City Rednecks...then come back and talk.

[StellaMarie]

Spontaneous? How in the world could it be spontaneous?

Erin and Chad decided to talk about their miscarriage on the show. The entire Bates family knows this. It is the subject of interviews with Erin and Chad. It's a big focus of the first show.

Then a cameraman drives with Erin and Carlin to the store to buy stuff for the shower. The cameraman follows them around. He is standing just a few feet away from them, dangling that furry sound thing. That's when Carlin chooses to say her thing.

Certainly, Carlin is fully aware that what she says will be filmed and will probably end up on TV. Clearly she doesn't think, "Erin and I are having a private moment where I can share some feelings of mine." Instead, she is probably thinking, "Here's a chance to show the audience that my family and I support Erin and notice that this might be hard for her."

The moment was about Carlin, not about Erin. If it was about Erin, Carlin would've told her to ditch the cameraman and when they were out of earshot, she would've whispered, "This must be hard! You are doing great!"

I don't think it was just Carlin. I think the whole family was invested in showing support to Erin. I'm not saying they DIDN'T support her, I'm sure they do. I'm saying that while on camera they seemed pretty invested in demonstrating that support.

I'm so glad you posted this. I was kind of snarky about Carlin in a prior post (except I wasn't sure which sister annoyed me, Tori or Carlin), and felt a little bad when everyone kept posting about how sweet the sister exchange was. I thought it was obnoxious and came across as attention-seeking. Some of the family sympathy for Poor Erin rang a little hollow for me -- particularly when Kelly expressed her empathy for Erin and then roped her into planning/throwing Whitney's shower. I agree with you, too, that it's likely part of filming a "reality" TV show.

That's also probably also why I really liked the Chad/Erin segments -- that really did seem very genuine.

[StellaMarie]

About accents and dialects...I am from the south...the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. I can turn off and on my accent when it suits me. If I'm back home with my friends...we speak "southern". If I'm giving a presentation to some engineers here in Nevada, I speak standard English. If I'm with my Cuban cousins in Miami, I speak Spanglish. If I'm trying to sweet talk my southern husband I sound like someone out of Steel Magnolias.

If one goes up to Gloucester County and run into a Guineaman, you won't understand a WORD he says. They have their own dialect. However, they are also able to switch to standard English when needed.

Unfortunately, folks associate accents, especially southern accents with either lack of intelligence or lack of education. If you want to be TOTALLY disabused of that notion, go watch some reruns of Rocket City Rednecks...then come back and talk.

The kids in my family -- myself included -- can (and do) pick up and drop accents and dialects at will, too! It's kind of fun, though I'm often not aware I'm doing it.

I try to keep my formal writing close to grammatically perfect, but I'm another grammar nerd. I'm less obsessive about speech, though, because it can be hard not to sound like an ass sometimes so as to speak "correctly."

I also sometimes pick up bad grammar that I have a hard time shaking -- for example, I had a college roommate who said "whenever" in lieu of "when," and I still mimic it sometimes all these years later. Drives me nuts!

[HereticHick]

About accents and dialects...I am from the south...the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. I can turn off and on my accent when it suits me. If I'm back home with my friends...we speak "southern". If I'm giving a presentation to some engineers here in Nevada, I speak standard English. If I'm with my Cuban cousins in Miami, I speak Spanglish. If I'm trying to sweet talk my southern husband I sound like someone out of Steel Magnolias.

If one goes up to Gloucester County and run into a Guineaman, you won't understand a WORD he says. They have their own dialect. However, they are also able to switch to standard English when needed.

Unfortunately, folks associate accents, especially southern accents with either lack of intelligence or lack of education. If you want to be TOTALLY disabused of that notion, go watch some reruns of Rocket City Rednecks...then come back and talk.

Absolutely, Feministxtrian-- I can also turn it off and on (although I find that it kinda comes "on" on its on when I am around enough Southerners). And so many Southern politicians (including Bill Clinton & Al Gore) are masters of dialing the accent/dialect up and down to suit their audiences!

[Knight of Ni]

Using regional dialects when you are among family, friends, or in an informal setting is fine. It's when you can't switch to Standard English in a formal setting is when it becomes a problem. Part of my job requires me to read observation notes. You would not believe the absolutely awful grammar and spelling I see. Some of the phrases are "she done got up five time last night." "skint knee" pacifically instead of specifically "She seen the doctor today" etc.

[church_of_dog]

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[feministxtian]

Absolutely, Feministxtrian-- I can also turn it off and on (although I find that it kinda comes "on" on its on when I am around enough Southerners). And so many Southern politicians (including Bill Clinton & Al Gore) are masters of dialing the accent/dialect up and down to suit their audiences!

Even if I'm speaking "standard" English, my accent will sneak in...the way I say certain words...it's just the way it is for me. But, I do make the effort to turn it WAY down. In reality, I suffer from "confused accents". I spent my childhood in Philadelphia...then moved to VA when I was about 9 or so...I'm mostly southern but occasionally a northern pronunciation will slip in. My kids know when I'm REALLY pissed though, my southern accent gets VERY thick...

[Alachantal]

I find their grammar appalling (I think Gil said "ain't" within two minutes of the start of the show), especially since both parents are college-educated and they're homeschooling their kids. It strikes me as almost passive-aggressive; as though they're trying to show us by example what they think of "book-smarts". English must be part of their homeschool curriculum. Who helps the children and corrects their work?

Gil and Kelly claimed that they decided to not limit the size of their family when they got married. On one of the early Duggar shows, when the Bateses were visiting, I'm almost positive that Gil said he initially didn't want a large family and Kelly had to talk him into it. Which was it?

Did Trace really get into a wreck at the same time Kelly was preparing for the shower? I was impressed by what appeared to be genuine maternal concern, but it seemed like a rather large coincidence. Did Trace really walk away without a scratch after the car flipped? With all of Gil's worrying about money, how will the car be repaired or replaced? I'm glad Trace was fine (at least he appeared to be) - I'm just wondering what was choreographed and what wasn't.

I hope that Erin and Chad find out that the fertility problem is treatable. For all we know, she could be pregnant now.

Alyssa was absolutely charming. What poise and maturity.

Anyway...I enjoyed the show, though I agree with everyone who believes that, generally speaking, they're as "bad" as the Duggars. It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts.

I don't know how to bold or anything since I'm on my tablet, but regarding the car wreck... My sister in law totalled her car - she rolled it 3 times into a tree, the engine ended up inside the car where the passenger seat used to be and the roof and back end were smashed and caved in. And she walked away with nothing but a bruise on her knee. She should've been dead, but she was practically unscathed. So I suppose it is possible for Trace to have walked away just fine?(i didn't see the episode because Canada, but just my opinion I suppose. ) But if he did flip the car, wouldn't it be a write off and thry get the cash?

[Pretzel]

Someone on here said Trace looked terrified and a lot like Josiah back when the arm incident happened at the Jubilee announcement.

I don't think these two incidents are comparable, tbh.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I once had a fender bender in a parking garage and I thought it was the end of the world. I had just acquired my license. I was in tears within seconds even though I hit an empty car and nobody was hurt. Quite unusually for them, my parents didn't react the way I was hoping they would. They were pretty pissed on the phone and I didn't really know how to handle the situation. A nice old lady was there helping me and today I'd feel much more confident handling such a situation. I'm still terrified of said parking garage and haven't parked there in years. That incident ruined my ability to drive a car for years. I was so in shock I grew stiff if my car did things I didn't expect it to.

I don't want to imagine what it must have felt like for Trace when he wrecked that car. I don't think the terrified look on his face meant that he was afraid of getting whippings by Gil afterwards. They even said he was speeding, so Trace must have felt bad about that as well. That alone is enough reason for that stern look on his face.

[HuggleMonster]

I'm off track with what everyone is discussing.

I just watched the whole Chad and Erin exchange and holy shit. Chad made me cry. I'm so glad she found someone who truly loves her.

[TXCATLADY]

Bad grammar does not equal stupid.

Agreed. My post was to say that it's more prevalent than a previous poster indicated.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Honestly, I don't mind spoken grammatical mistakes. I only care when you're writing a formal piece. Or you're trying to correct other people's grammar and you're an ass about it.