Bill Gothard Ousted - IBLP/ATI scandal - Merge

[MerryHappy]

I'm skeptical he is giving up any real power. I bet he will handpick the guy who follows him and he will always be in the background pulling all the strings. He wants to stay in control of the situation and this is it. I wouldn't be surprised if all pretense of an investigation is dropped and since RG is already saying that they want the ministry to recover he will most likely try and convince them to not publish anymore stories of his abuse so that the "recovery" process will start. They already gave him the nice out so that he can claim that he claim that he just didn't realize that he hurt people. He can say "I'm sorry I hurt you unintentionally." without ever admitting that he really did anything wrong.

This is exactly how I feel about it. Seeing the damage that ATIA did to my family, I can't imagine being one of Gothard's sexual abuse victims reading that tweet from RG. Why the actual fuck would we want ATIA's "ministry" to recover?

RG is sending out a mixed and confusing message right now. It still feels like saving face for the religion is more important than the survivors finding healing, including real and honest anger towards a man who built his kingdom on the backs of sexual assault and molestation victims.

I don't want to make nice with ATIA/IBLP. Ever.

[Swamptribe]

Mr. Tribe and my guess is that the Duggars will not mention this scandal in any way. They will pretend as if it doesn't exist. Watch, in the Bates wedding episode, all shots of Gothard will be edited out. Interviews will be carefully controlled, as always, to avoid any uncomfortable questions. One has to wonder if someone wanders up to have their book signed during a signing and asks "What's you're opinion of Gothard being accused of sexual misconduct".

[GeoBQn]

They were already editing out all Gothard appearances. He spoke at Josh's wedding and Priscilla's wedding, but they didn't include any of that in the footage that aired.

[formergothardite]

This is exactly how I feel about it. Seeing the damage that ATIA did to my family, I can't imagine being one of Gothard's sexual abuse victims reading that tweet from RG. Why the actual fuck would we want ATIA's "ministry" to recover?

RG is sending out a mixed and confusing message right now. It still feels like saving face for the religion is more important than the survivors finding healing, including real and honest anger towards a man who built his kingdom on the backs of sexual assault and molestation victims.

I don't want to make nice with ATIA/IBLP. Ever.

Remove Bill Gothard and the "ministry" is still a very destructive force. I feel like they are downplaying the damage done by ATI/IBLP. There is nothing worth recovering there, it is all bad. The entire system is rotten, so by praying for the ministry to recover they are praying for the damaging teachings to continue on. I have way to many strongholds of bitterness to try and make nice with that cult.

[nolongerIFBx]

One more comment: There is rumor that David Gibbs and his CLA have been retained. Gibbs has a long history of protecting the Gothard organization, and he is apparently already scheduled as a speaker at an upcoming conference. Be assured that this has nothing to do with the welfare of victims. Gibbs exists to protect churches and religious organizations from taking responsibility and having liability for their wrongdoings and cover ups. Nuff sed.

Sadly true. As a child, I knew Mr. Gibbs and loved to listen to his stories. Him telling the story of the bull, pitchfork, and electric fence will always be one of my favorite memories. As with many things, I think that Christian Law Association started from a good place. Unfortunately, it has become merely a free way for churches to find out how to protect themselves from litigation rather than actually fighting for right. They may argue that they are not defending Jack Schaap and Bill Gothard, just First Baptist and IBLP/ATI, but by doing so they are working against the true victims. I think it is time CLA stops seeking monthly missions money from churches and charge these places to represent them. They have plenty to money to pay for counsel and don't need the monies of honest but ignorant people who think they are helping people who are unjustly facing legal problems. Most of all TAKE CHRISTIAN OFF THE NAME OF YOUR FIRM!!! John 8:32 has always said, “The truth will make you free.†Paul said that without charity/love, we are a noisy gong, a clanging cymbal, nothing (1 Corinthians 13:1-2). Jesus said, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.†(John 13:35) and Paul tells us that love “rejoices with the truth†(1 Corinthians 13:6). Psalm 82:3 tells Christians to "Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy."

By not seeking and promoting truth, by not doing justice for the victims, they are not being CHRIST-like and don't qualify to bill themselves as a Christian Law Association.

[MerryHappy]

Remove Bill Gothard and the "ministry" is still a very destructive force. I feel like they are downplaying the damage done by ATI/IBLP. There is nothing worth recovering there, it is all bad. The entire system is rotten, so by praying for the ministry to recover they are praying for the damaging teachings to continue on. I have way to many strongholds of bitterness to try and make nice with that cult.

Yes!

I'm attempting to focus on the greater good (THE GREATER GOOOODDDD, for my Hot Fuzz fans) but RG is further alienating me and apostates like me with this prayers for recovery nonsense.

[MerryHappy]

Mr. Tribe and my guess is that the Duggars will not mention this scandal in any way. They will pretend as if it doesn't exist. Watch, in the Bates wedding episode, all shots of Gothard will be edited out. Interviews will be carefully controlled, as always, to avoid any uncomfortable questions. One has to wonder if someone wanders up to have their book signed during a signing and asks "What's you're opinion of Gothard being accused of sexual misconduct".

If they come anywhere near me for a signing, I will do it.

[Becket70]

Forgive my ignorance but the Duggars make my blood pressure go up so I no longer watch them. Don't they usually go on morning TV for an "interview" a week or so before their new season starts? I assume they, or TLC, or both, would not wish to discuss the Gothard situation so ground rules would state that the topic must be avoided. But wouldn't it be a kick if the interviewer threw caution to the wind and asked them anyway? I know it's not going to happen but one can hope. The Duggars are never held accountable for their lifestyle. No serious questions about the way they choose to raise their kids. Sad.

[pega127]

Someone in the comments on RG said that he has lawyered up.

If that's true there may be more to this. More recent victims. Maybe someone spoke up after he was placed on leave.

Perhaps, he contacted the Vatican for some guidance and what lawyers to hire.

[Swamptribe]

If they come anywhere near me for a signing, I will do it.

Dear god, don't. Just leave them alone.

[Palimpsest]

Dear god, don't. Just leave them alone.

Seriously, for a variety of reasons, don't!

[DugFan]

As we talked, Bill would play footsie with me. I loved to be barefooted, and he would always comment on the shades of polish on my toes. I’d talk, and he would rub my feet with his.

Watch out, Duggar Flip-Flop Girls! :shhh:

[DugFan]

I had told my parents about Bill’s abuse earlier, but they told me I had “asked†for it and that I “tempted†Bill.

Ah, those definitely sound like parents Jesus would be proud of! :? :cry:

[AlexIsAwake]

Seriously, for a variety of reasons, don't!

Why not? When the Duggars place themselves in a situation to interact with the public, why can't people ask whatever questions they'd like? I personally wouldn't have the guts to do it, but if someone else does, I say more power to them. Unless you've got some really good, logical reasons as to why they should be "left alone?"

They aren't leaving others alone. They proseletyze for their faith and their extra-Biblical way of doing life on tv and IRL. They have fooled many people into only seeing the fake, pretty side of fundamentalism, and they draw people towards it that way. Back in 2008, I was nearly one of those people. I thought maybe there was something to their thinking that would improve my life, as they all seemed so happy on tv. I got involved in some messed up thinking for a bit, but thankfully got over it before real damage could be done. So, in my opinion, the Duggars are far from harmless or blameless. I would be willing to bet money that they have drawn families into ATI that otherwise would never have known about it. Let them be confronted.

[lemonhead]

This is exactly how I feel about it. Seeing the damage that ATIA did to my family, I can't imagine being one of Gothard's sexual abuse victims reading that tweet from RG. Why the actual fuck would we want ATIA's "ministry" to recover?

RG is sending out a mixed and confusing message right now. It still feels like saving face for the religion is more important than the survivors finding healing, including real and honest anger towards a man who built his kingdom on the backs of sexual assault and molestation victims.

I don't want to make nice with ATIA/IBLP. Ever.

I agree. I've said here before that I hold Gothard responsible for catalyzing my dysfunctional-to-abusive parents into totally toxic assholes, so I won't go there again. What RG--and many christians--don't seem to grasp is that Gothard is likely a narcissist. If so, he has a personality disorder that is considered largely untreatable. RG wants reconciliation and redemption, not understanding that he is incapable of changing and probably has no desire to do so. He is a cult leader, not so different at his core from Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, or Warren Jeffs. RG believes everyone can be saved and every victim wants to forgive. They are living in a fantasy world.

[Swamptribe]

Why not? When the Duggars place themselves in a situation to interact with the public, why can't people ask whatever questions they'd like? I personally wouldn't have the guts to do it, but if someone else does, I say more power to them. Unless you've got some really good, logical reasons as to why they should be "left alone?"

They aren't leaving others alone. They proseletyze for their faith and their extra-Biblical way of doing life on tv and IRL. They have fooled many people into only seeing the fake, pretty side of fundamentalism, and they draw people towards it that way. Back in 2008, I was nearly one of those people. I thought maybe there was something to their thinking that would improve my life, as they all seemed so happy on tv. I got involved in some messed up thinking for a bit, but thankfully got over it before real damage could be done. So, in my opinion, the Duggars are far from harmless or blameless. I would be willing to bet money that they have drawn families into ATI that otherwise would never have known about it. Let them be confronted.

Yes, and it went so well last time somebody posted on this board about confronting them, and then did so.

Jeeze, I may have just condemned some poor innocent who blurts out the question. Now having flashbacks to Bonquiqui screaming "Security, security".

Still, begs the question, how the hell are they gonna handle any such questions. They can't just ignore 'em.

[dawbs]

Seriously, for a variety of reasons, don't!

Why?

I understand some of the reasons why.

I wouldn't do it.

But this family puts a veneer of "look, we're NICE' on something that is horrific.

The show exists as more than a commercial for ATI, but a lot of what it does is take a family that's involved in something awful and destructive and whitewash the sepulchre as a way of luring people in. And it's deceptive and insidious and people can be pretty steeped in the flavor-aid of the kept-sweet-veneer of niceness before finding out about the awfulness expected of them.

Forcing them to rip back their own mask has benefits for that reason alone.

[Palimpsest]

Why not? When the Duggars place themselves in a situation to interact with the public, why can't people ask whatever questions they'd like? I personally wouldn't have the guts to do it, but if someone else does, I say more power to them. Unless you've got some really good, logical reasons as to why they should be "left alone?"

They aren't leaving others alone. They proseletyze for their faith and their extra-Biblical way of doing life on tv and IRL. They have fooled many people into only seeing the fake, pretty side of fundamentalism, and they draw people towards it that way. Back in 2008, I was nearly one of those people. I thought maybe there was something to their thinking that would improve my life, as they all seemed so happy on tv. I got involved in some messed up thinking for a bit, but thankfully got over it before real damage could be done. So, in my opinion, the Duggars are far from harmless or blameless. I would be willing to bet money that they have drawn families into ATI that otherwise would never have known about it. Let them be confronted.

I was thinking of the Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger at a book signing when I said don't ask them about Gothard's alleged sexual misconduct. I'd feel differently about asking the parents.

The reasons for not confronting the girls:

1. They are flesh and blood human beings with feelings not images flickering on your TV screen.

2. Smug little proseletyzers as they may be, they are not responsible for their parents choice of cult, they are brainwashed, and they still seem remarkably immature whatever their chronological ages.

3. Most importantly, there is a distinct possibility that one or more of them may have been victimized sexually by Bill Gothard. Do you really think it would be kind or necessary to confront them with that issue in public? I think it would be downright cruel.

And a distant fourth reason: Anyone asking this or similar questions will probably be hustled out of of the venue by security. Just be sure you are up for that.

ETA. Added the word sexually. BG has many different kinds of victims.

[MerryHappy]

I can't imagine a better person to ask the question than a former ATIA kid. I don't fear the what-if's anymore.

[Arete]

The four older Duggar girls are most definitely victims of their parent's lifestyle choice, but that sin is on their parents, not someone demanding the truth be confronted.

[AlexIsAwake]

I was thinking of the Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger at a book signing when I said don't ask them about Gothard's alleged sexual misconduct. I'd feel differently about asking the parents.

The reasons for not confronting the girls:

1. They are flesh and blood human beings with feelings not images flickering on your TV screen.

2. Smug little proseletyzers as they may be, they are not responsible for their parents choice of cult, they are brainwashed, and they still seem remarkably immature whatever their chronological ages.

3. Most importantly, there is a distinct possibility that one or more of them may have been victimized sexually by Bill Gothard. Do you really think it would be kind or necessary to confront them with that issue in public? I think it would be downright cruel.

And a distant fourth reason: Anyone asking this or similar questions will probably be hustled out of of the venue by security. Just be sure you are up for that.

ETA. Added the word sexually. BG has many different kinds of victims.

I do follow your thinking and won't argue with it. I feel differently though, even if it were just the girls present. I would have no issue with anyone directing the question to one of the adult girls, and I believe the oldest 4 are all at least 18. If one of them is indeed a victim, I agree there would be much sensitivity on their part to being asked that question. On the other hand, it may be the only way the ever learn (while under their parents' control) that Gothard has indeed been accused of sexual misconduct. The situation is not ideal in any way, and their parents have not "done right" by those girls - but still, they are adults now and are responsible for their own thinking. Something needs to wake them up. They are fair game for questions on their book tour, IMO.

[FJSharkJump]

Yes, and it went so well last time somebody posted on this board about confronting them, and then did so.

Jeeze, I may have just condemned some poor innocent who blurts out the question. Now having flashbacks to Bonquiqui screaming "Security, security".

Still, begs the question, how the hell are they gonna handle any such questions. They can't just ignore 'em.

Gotta link? I can't be the only one who has no idea what is being referred to here.

[AlexIsAwake]

Gotta link? I can't be the only one who has no idea what is being referred to here.

I don't have a link to it, but it was discussed in one of the other Duggar threads last year. An FJ member discussed here how she was going to the Duggars' yard sale they held on their property, and if she had the opportunity, she wanted to confront Michelle about Josie's apparently delayed development. She wanted to ask what was being done to help Josie. She also stated here that she was going to hide a mic and record the conversation. The Duggars got wind of it and had police there looking for the girl (as she even had posted what she would be wearing), and police escorted her out. I don't remember if there were charges brought against her, but I think it was all eventually dropped. At some point during the yard sale, signs were put up on the Duggars' fence saying no recordings allowed due to TLC filming. The FJ member said the signs weren't there when she arrived.

And this situation is TOTALLY different than someone just going to a book signing at B&N and asking what the Duggars think of the Gothard sex allegations. You can't really compare the two situations at all.

[Palimpsest]

The four older Duggar girls are most definitely victims of their parent's lifestyle choice, but that sin is on their parents, not someone demanding the truth be confronted.

I don't believe in sin. I believe in ethics and morals. Speaking for myself alone, it would be unethical and immoral to confront a possible victim of sexual abuse or sexual harassment in public with that sensitive issue. Even if the chances that they are a victim are <100/1. We can agree to differ on that.

And my point still stands on possible repercussions from security in confronting any of the Duggars on any difficult question in public.

[MerryHappy]

I agree. I've said here before that I hold Gothard responsible for catalyzing my dysfunctional-to-abusive parents into totally toxic assholes, so I won't go there again. What RG--and many christians--don't seem to grasp is that Gothard is likely a narcissist. If so, he has a personality disorder that is considered largely untreatable. RG wants reconciliation and redemption, not understanding that he is incapable of changing and probably has no desire to do so. He is a cult leader, not so different at his core from Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, or Warren Jeffs. RG believes everyone can be saved and every victim wants to forgive. They are living in a fantasy world.

Yes, it is fantasy.

You know, I think I have nailed down what really bothers me about how RG is going about this. I feel like they are still playing by ATIA/IBLP/Gothards rules. They are framing their responses and their choice of vernacular to appease the abusers. As someone said before, they are playing the game.

I hate it. I hate the dishonest, passive communication. How can you, in good conscience, issue a prayer request that the very system that abused so very many continue? There is something very wrong. It is that less-than-honest communication style that was drilled into us as kids.

I abhor the game playing. The ship is sinking and we are still trying to soften the blow for the abusers, including our parental units and others in leadership roles. I hate that we are still falling back on how we were talk to speak to and about people who put themselves in places of authority.

I am having a really tough time processing that my fellow religious X-ers still feel the need to issue prayer requests on my behalf as an apostate, even though I (and others) have more than once clearly explained how the lack of religion has helped our personal healing from growing up fundie. It feels like they can not hear us anymore than the folks at HQs and our parental units could. It is disheartening. It makes me want to close that door on my past and not look back, not even to help those who need someone to be there for them. That sucks. Royally.

The greatest tool in ending ATIA has been the personal accounts, not the refuted theology and doctrines.

My heart is sore. It is so terribly sore over this...so much so that I am typing about it to a forum full of people I don't know because many of the one that I do know consider throwing the apostate X-ers under the bus is a worth it for the appearance of the greater good.