Bill Gothard Ousted - IBLP/ATI scandal - Merge

[Mama Mia]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Think we have the winner!

TLC may very well want any scandal high-lighted. Any sort of publicity brings viewers. I. Sure they wouldn't want the Duggars talking about it to much, but if a connection is made in the media it certainly doesn't hurt TLC.

[scc12]

I will add number 10: Having now realized that it is probably okay to dance, JB and Michelle join the next season of Dancing With The Stars.

good one.I also think they would do most anything on tv to get a big check.Perhaps they might all of a sudden notice the verse that says "Praise Him with dance".

[16strong]

I keep Googling news for the Duggars, and it seems the only news source picking this up is Radar. Interesting. I wonder if a lot of news sources think picking it up would alienate their conservative readers? Or maybe potentially bringing down the Duggars is too big a can of worms for anyone to want to open? It's not exactly small news, and yet nobody seems to want to touch it with a barge pole.

[pega127]

Chris Hogan, president of ATI taking an 'active role in the transition,' is the "relationship coach" that met with JB and Michelle in Puerto Rico! (See "Love and Marriage" episode last season.)

He's the genius that stood with a piece of rebar (and $10) between him and JB's throat...

He creeps me out, too. I watched that episode and another from the ATI site. He's a car salesman (surprise!) and live in a very big home with lots of worldly possessions.

[pega127]

I keep Googling news for the Duggars, and it seems the only news source picking this up is Radar. Interesting. I wonder if a lot of news sources think picking it up would alienate their conservative readers? Or maybe potentially bringing down the Duggars is too big a can of worms for anyone to want to open? It's not exactly small news, and yet nobody seems to want to touch it with a barge pole.

Josh's "hometown" newspaper ," The Washington Post" picked up the story. I wonder if anyone questioned Josh or Anna about it? Love to hear how they spin their answers!

[16strong]

Josh's "hometown" newspaper ," The Washington Post" picked up the story. I wonder if anyone questioned Josh or Anna about it? Love to hear how they spin their answers!

I was satisfied until I saw they dumped it off into the religion tab and made it sound like the Duggars are no longer associated with ATI. I am very disappointed. It's sort of a cop-out article, imo.

[formergothardite]

I was satisfied until I saw they dumped it off into the religion tab and made it sound like the Duggars are no longer associated with ATI. I am very disappointed. It's sort of a cop-out article, imo.

I've seen that in several articles that do mention the Duggars, they imply that the Duggars are no longer associated with ATI/IBLP/Gothard. I wonder why this is? Who is giving them the impression that this is a thing of the past?

[16strong]

I've seen that in several articles that do mention the Duggars, they imply that the Duggars are no longer associated with ATI/IBLP/Gothard. I wonder why this is? Who is giving them the impression that this is a thing of the past?

I wish I knew. How possible is it that TLC is threatening to sue any news outlet that suggests the Duggars are currently involved with ATI/Gothard? That's the only possible reason I'm coming up with, but it's not like the Duggars can be very big money-makers for them at this point. :think: It's just very bizarre.

I am glad, however, for the posters over at Radar clearing that misconception up.

[Arete]

I think this isn't being carried as top news because frankly, the Duggars are D list celebrities who are hardly noticed in the rest of the country. One of the reasons I am on this site is because I have absolutely no one in real life with whom I can discuss these crazies. If they are aware, the most common reaction I get is "those freaks that keep having kids". That is about the extent of the impact or interest.

As to why the reports have the implication that the Duggars may not be ATI anymore- because that was the sloppy language used in the first story to break the news of the Gothard investigation on religiononline. Most other report have quoted directly from that first report. Once again, because no one is going to allocate additional resources to what is perceived as a sexual harassment story involving third rate reality stars.

The Washington Post has brought down US presidents and four star generals. They aren't afraid of TLC or the Duggars. The story as they understand it just doesn't warrant a lot of research.

[Ampak]

We won't see it on major news channels because of network affiliation. You'd be surprised to hear who owns what out in TV land. Also, the fact that the allegations aren't proven/no trial. Why would they show one of their own shows in a bad light?

[Arete]

It may be that I am seeing different shades of grey here than you. Note, I did not accuse you or anyone else of black and white thinking here, I said different! To explain:

From my personal ethical point of view, I have no problems with asking this specific question publically of the Duggar parents, Grandma, Josh, JD, whatever other Duggar boys are no longer minors (I can't keep track) because, I agree, the Duggars are making money off Gothard's bullshit.

My reservations are only about the girls (because of the possibility of them being victims not because of their gender) and asking this question publically. This question. Asked publically. At a book signing with press cameras there. Potentially cruel. An ex-ATI person, me, you, or anyone else asking the same question privately and kindly would definitely shine the light.

The different shades of grey I'm seeing are probably because of my background and experiences. I've never been sexually abused but sexually harassed, yes. I know how helpless, humiliated and self-blaming I felt, and how hard I found it to confront. Which I did. I settled out of court with terms that satisfied me would: punish the person responsible and stop him from continuing to harass others; and shine a blinding light on the toxic work environment that allowed the situation to flourish, and that attempted to grind me into the ground for blowing a whistle very loudly. Senior management was forced to change their practices and implement new policies. A couple of Senior heads rolled. I was lucky enough to have found another position and left a few days after I settled. Thank goodness.

However, the experience - the sexual harassment itself and the aftermath - left me with a PTSD diagnosis and flashbacks that continue to this day, many years later. So I would never ask this specific question of a possible victim of Bill Gothard's sexual harassment or sexual abuse in public, however much money their family was making off selling his cult thinking.

It might not be in Jim Bob's interest to use security to deal with difficult questions but I'll eat a couple of hats if he doesn't. TLC has an interest in deflecting and managing all of this too. Their contracts are supposed to be iron-clad! I expect he'll make a public statement at some point but TLC will give them some sort of a script to follow.

I understand and can respect your point of view about the Duggar girls possibly having been Gothard's victims. My willingness to have Gothard's crimes put before them in general, not specific to them terms, is that it opens the flow of information. If they are unaware of the scandal do to sheltering, they need to find out. Other people at these signings would also be exposed to the information and be able to research it. You can escort people from church venues (can't see it happening in a Barnes and Noble) but you have still opened yourself to curiosity.

Gothard has hidden in the shadows controlling the flow of information for decades. That is how he builds his base. Taking that tight control from him is absolutely necessary to erode his power. JB and Michelle are hiding behind the skirts of their daughters, using them as shields to put out a ghostwritten book that makes them money on Gothard's toxic teaching. Their daughters might get hurt, but they will have the truth, and so will others. No one would be in a position to have to weight the hurt of these young women over the ability to warn away others if their parents were not money grubbing famewhores without the discernment normally found in a patch of radishes.

I have nothing but respect for what you were able to do for the women who came after you. What you did, I have also benefitted from, because in the environment I work there is a zero tolerance policy for sexual harrassment, and I have witnessed the hammer come down on a perpetrator. Nothing would have changed if women like you had not taken on the system. Now women like me benefit. Thank you. Just, thank you.

[Cleopatra7]

I've been thinking about this issue, and it's my opinion that it would not be inappropriate to ask one of the J'slaves a generalized question about the Gothard scandal. This is why I have come to this conclusion.

1. While taking them aside to ask them about the scandal would probably be the best approach, realistically, it's not going to happen. JB keeps the kids, even the ones who are over 18, on a tight leash and he takes special care not to let them interact with the heathen masses even at a "friendly event" at a Christian bookstore.

2. The J'slaves are all adults. While I agree that they are probably much younger than their chronological ages, they need to take responsibility for what they are saying. Even assuming that they are emotionally fifteen years old, a fifteen year old still knows right from wrong and how to spot a hypocrite. Based on the chapter summaries that FMJ is posting in another thread, the J'slaves are using this book to endorse Gothard and his various front organizations. This is dangerous, especially for mainstream conservative Christian girls or fundie-lit girls who might read this book and be inspired to check out JTTH. Repeat, the J'slaves are endorsing Gothard and his organizations. They need to be called out on this, especially if one of them has been a victim of Gothard. What they are doing is bringing him and his yes-men more victims.

3. The Duggars in general get a pass from the media. Maybe this is because they've always be open about being very conservative, but I'm surprised that the Gothard connection hasn't gotten more press. They say one thing for secular audiences, something else for mainstream conservative audiences, and a third thing for patriarchal/quiverfull groups. Maybe this is because they say that, "This is what works for our family," but we all know that they think everyone should be like them. They need to understand that their ideas have consequences.

[scc12]

Has Gothard been accused of fondling or having actual sex w any of the girls? I haven't read all the stories,but I suspect the media just doesn't see playing footsie,touching on the shoulders or back,winking or holding hands as being newsworthy (not that it wasn't abuse or not inappropriate).Just not newsworthy.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Has Gothard been accused of fondling or having actual sex w any of the girls? I haven't read all the stories,but I suspect the media just doesn't see playing footsie,touching on the shoulders or back,winking or holding hands as being newsworthy (not that it wasn't abuse or not appropriate).Just not newsworthy.

So far, there are no claims that Gothard has had sex with any of them, however Charlotte claimed that when she was 16 he used to touch her breasts and put his hand up her skirt.

[RosyDaisy]

Wow! I'm a little late to the party. This good news. It probably won't be long until all of Gothard's organizations go down.

[apple1]

Gothard has hidden in the shadows controlling the flow of information for decades. That is how he builds his base. Taking that tight control from him is absolutely necessary to erode his power.

This statement is so absolutely and completely true. Even to the point that Gothard-following pastors and church leaders, who are teaching Gothardism as their main theology (in churches with some other name over the door) won't say "Gothard". They talk about homeschool conventions (yes, we heard that on ##K&C, too) and umbrella of protection and things like that. They preach that grace = power and ability to do the will of God. But the infamous red book and the name Gothard aren't mentioned. Not until they have actually pulled someone into the seminar itself.

And - nevermind the Duggars - somebody needs to open the door and allow some light to be shed in major media about Character First and Character Cities. You would be shocked. (I have posted about this before).

[16strong]

Apple1, this is actually how Scientology rolls too. They don't set up Scientology-specific booths anywhere. They set up booths advertising a new lifestyle to help "improve" yourself. Once you walk up, they tell you to take a self-evaluation quiz. After that, they hook you up with a "free course" to find out your results and to find out how to overcome your personal issues. But to find out more, you have to pay for extra courses and textbooks to go with them. What a sham.

[Palimpsest]

I understand and can respect your point of view about the Duggar girls possibly having been Gothard's victims. My willingness to have Gothard's crimes put before them in general, not specific to them terms, is that it opens the flow of information. If they are unaware of the scandal do to sheltering, they need to find out. Other people at these signings would also be exposed to the information and be able to research it. You can escort people from church venues (can't see it happening in a Barnes and Noble) but you have still opened yourself to curiosity.

I had a very strong and immediate negative reaction to anyone questioning the girls. It was helpful to me to think about, and write about, exactly why the very idea kicked me in the gut as hard as it did.

Your points are well made. I withdraw my objections with one hope. The girls are going to be chaperoned at all events so I hope that this question is put to the parent tomato-staking chaperoning Jana, et al, rather than to Jana herself. I think it is fine if the questioning is done in front of the girls but I still feel quite queasy about forcing them to answer it!

The choice of Barnes and Noble for the venue is quite amusing. Contrary to popular knowledge, stores are private property and a customer can be asked to leave at any time. No justification is actually needed but a common reason given is a simple "You are making me (or other people) uncomfortable." You can get arrested for refusing to leave after that request. The customer's only recourse to being chucked out is to file a discrimination suit if they are a member of a protected class, or to embarrass the store in the media if they are not. Barnes and Noble had to issue a public apology to an elderly man they kicked out of the store a year or so ago because he was browsing in the Children's section. He was alone but buying books for his grandchildren!

Gothard has hidden in the shadows controlling the flow of information for decades. That is how he builds his base. Taking that tight control from him is absolutely necessary to erode his power. JB and Michelle are hiding behind the skirts of their daughters, using them as shields to put out a ghostwritten book that makes them money on Gothard's toxic teaching. Their daughters might get hurt, but they will have the truth, and so will others. No one would be in a position to have to weight the hurt of these young women over the ability to warn away others if their parents were not money grubbing famewhores without the discernment normally found in a patch of radishes.

Agreed.

I have nothing but respect for what you were able to do for the women who came after you. What you did, I have also benefitted from, because in the environment I work there is a zero tolerance policy for sexual harrassment, and I have witnessed the hammer come down on a perpetrator. Nothing would have changed if women like you had not taken on the system. Now women like me benefit. Thank you. Just, thank you.

Aw, thanks. That really choked me up and means a lot. I knew at the time I was doing the right thing but it was bloody hard. Sexual harassment was thought of as just something women had to shut up and put up with during the 80s and well into the 90s. We are in a much better place now but it still happens. There are still silverbacks and assholes (of both genders) out there who don't think they need to obey the rules.

[apple1]

http://www.suntimes.com/26056414-761/le ... tions.html

It finally hits the Chicago Sun Times.

final paragraph

Seth Kraus, of the law firm Gibbs and Associates in Cincinnati, said the firm is conducting a review of the allegations. That review is at the request of its client, the Christian Law Association, which was asked by the institute’s board to do an outside review, Kraus said.

Dang. While checking this out, I just found out that Gibbs' office is only about a mile from my house.

ETA - Gibbs and Associates is David Gibbs Jr.; CLA is David Gibbs Jr. What is this mumbo jumbo "at the request of its client, the Christian Law Association"?

[Cleopatra7]

http://www.suntimes.com/26056414-761/leader-of-oak-brook-religious-group-resigns-amid-sex-harassment-allegations.html

It finally hits the Chicago Sun Times.

final paragraph

Dang. While checking this out, I just found out that Gibbs' office is only about a mile from my house.

ETA - Gibbs and Associates is David Gibbs Jr.; CLA is David Gibbs Jr. What is this mumbo jumbo "at the request of its client, the Christian Law Association"?

The Sun Times said that David Waller informed the ATI families about Gothard's resignation. The J'slaves must know about it.

[gypsygirl22]

Kelly Bates is pretty quiet. I'd like to know what she & Gil know.

[Rebelwife]

The Sun Times said that David Waller informed the ATI families about Gothard's resignation. The J'slaves must know about it.

Except that probably meant they informed the menfolk as heads of their families. It would be up to the headships to decide what to tell the wimmenfolk. (Although I agree the older kids probably know something. I'm just curious what story they've been given and how it's been spun.)

[DuggarTime]

Except that probably meant they informed the menfolk as heads of their families. It would be up to the headships to decide what to tell the wimmenfolk. (Although I agree the older kids probably know something. I'm just curious what story they've been given and how it's been spun.)

I definitely think Jim Bob and Michelle will ask their daughters if Gothard did anything to them. ANY parent who heard allegations like this would ask their daughters, knowing that their daughters had been alone at JTTH multiple times!! The Duggars are very protective over their children.

[lizziesmom]

I definitely think Jim Bob and Michelle will ask their daughters if Gothard did anything to them. ANY parent who heard allegations like this would ask their daughters, knowing that their daughters had been alone at JTTH multiple times!! The Duggars are very protective over their children.

The real test of character though will come if one or more of the girls say 'yes'. What will Jim Boob and Michelle do about it? Will they renounce Gothard and his teachings?

[Cleopatra7]

The real test of character though will come if one or more of the girls say 'yes'. What will Jim Boob and Michelle do about it? Will they renounce Gothard and his teachings?

It seems like the general reaction to abuse by authority figures in the IFB world is to blame the victim... :(