Bill Gothard Ousted - IBLP/ATI scandal - Merge

[Palimpsest]

That's shameful and vile.

It's horrible when churches and religious organizations don't respond properly to abuse, but when they plan and instruct the victims not to report it to law enforcement it makes them look like they are premeditating abuse.

+1

Or at the very least expecting it to be an ongoing problem. That chart is iniquitous!

[lemonhead]

Could someone explain this to me please? In Gothard's world, touching in the context of dating/courtship/whatever you want to call it is regarded as a big fat sin with big fat consequences. Any sexual touch, we're lead to believe, will result in irreparable damage to the heart and soul and have consequences in any future relationships.

But apparently, sexual abuse is just fine. The body is the least important part of a person's being, so any transgression against a person's body should be regarded as a non-issue. (Unless, of course, the victim encouraged it (barf), in which case it's cause for guilt.)

I think he deserves an Olympic gold for mental gymnastics.

Yes, it looks like the victim, if she truly was not "to blame", gets a pass. But the reality is, few victims would be deemed completely blameless. Whether it was something she wore, or daring to look the abuser in the eye (which would be twisted around and called "seductive"), or if she failed to "cry out" during the attack--any of those things would cause the victim to be blamed. Even if she (or he, though I imagine a male victim would be treated differently) could be certain she was not guilty and could convince the church authorities of her innocence, there's a good chance she would still get caught by Number 5--did she report the attack? Did she report it right away? If not, then she is guilty of possibly allowing others to also be abused.

I knew better than to report it, because that would have landed me in the hot mess of Numbers 6-10. You really can't win in this system.

[nausicaa]

Where is the "call the cops" on that chart?

And you'd think someone involved enough in religion to make a chart like that would be able to spell "altar."

I am shocked everytime I see that chart and just hope against reason that it is a parody.

And the alter/altar mixups on the fundie materials and blogs drives me crazy. It is a central part of their worship building. They should know how to spell it better than anyone. Yet, I am not sure I have ever seen a fundie write it correctly.

[bumblebee]

Yes, it looks like the victim, if she truly was not "to blame", gets a pass. But the reality is, few victims would be deemed completely blameless. Whether it was something she wore, or daring to look the abuser in the eye (which would be twisted around and called "seductive"), or if she failed to "cry out" during the attack--any of those things would cause the victim to be blamed. Even if she (or he, though I imagine a male victim would be treated differently) could be certain she was not guilty and could convince the church authorities of her innocence, there's a good chance she would still get caught by Number 5--did she report the attack? Did she report it right away? If not, then she is guilty of possibly allowing others to also be abused.

I knew better than to report it, because that would have landed me in the hot mess of Numbers 6-10. You really can't win in this system.

I'm not sure even Maria Goretti would "get a pass" from some of these people, they'd fine some reason that she was to blame in the first place.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Wow, Esther Shrader went against Gothard and stood up to her own grandpa on saying that Gothard is an evil dirty old man?

She needs to show her opinions more often, and tell John to stop being a worthless asshat.

[acat7]

She was so firm! I was really impressed. I wonder what this family's history with ATI is (who was converted first?)

[nausicaa]

Wow, Esther Shrader went against Gothard and stood up to her own grandpa on saying that Gothard is an evil dirty old man?

She needs to show her opinions more often, and tell John to stop being a worthless asshat.

This is giving me hope that she will show some sense about this ill-fated Zealous for Zambia trip!

[Palimpsest]

This is giving me hope that she will show some sense about this ill-fated Zealous for Zambia trip!

Don't get your hopes up on that. John Shrader claims to have seen Gothard as a False Prophet 15 years ago, and Esther is only following his lead as a Godly wife should. Esther is unlikely ever to stand up to her Visionary man, I'm afraid.

John has found plenty of other mentors asshats to admire, and leghumpers to bolster his enormous ego even though he renounced Gothard.

[realist51]

From Esther's Facebook:

Bill Gothard's heretical teachings and manipulative ways have hurt our family far more than you will ever know.

Wonder what that's about.

[Mela99]

From Esther's Facebook:

Wonder what that's about.

Whatever it is, good for her for saying it.

[marmalade]

Could someone explain this to me please? In Gothard's world, touching in the context of dating/courtship/whatever you want to call it is regarded as a big fat sin with big fat consequences. Any sexual touch, we're lead to believe, will result in irreparable damage to the heart and soul and have consequences in any future relationships.

But apparently, sexual abuse is just fine. The body is the least important part of a person's being, so any transgression against a person's body should be regarded as a non-issue. (Unless, of course, the victim encouraged it (barf), in which case it's cause for guilt.)

I think he deserves an Olympic gold for mental gymnastics.

Amen. He merely concocted that convoluted mess of WTF to justify acting out on his own sick fetishes.

[FJismyheadship]

Could he have done something to one of her sisters?

[realist51]

Could he have done something to one of her sisters?

That's what I'm wondering.

[marmalade]

Could he have done something to one of her sisters?

Maybe it's more of a general statement about those Kellers who chose to leave Gothard and probably caught bloody hell for it from the parents, Anna, and Priscilla.

That said, I've speculated elsewhere that both Pris and Jana Duggar have spent extensive periods of time ALONE with this pervert, and both young women are his "type." So yeah, that's a definite possibility.

[nausicaa]

Don't get your hopes up on that. John Shrader claims to have seen Gothard as a False Prophet 15 years ago, and Esther is only following his lead as a Godly wife should. Esther is unlikely ever to stand up to her Visionary man, I'm afraid.

John has found plenty of other mentors asshats to admire, and leghumpers to bolster his enormous ego even though he renounced Gothard.

Gah--I somehow forgot about John's falling out with Gothard. Damn. All right, back to worrying about the impending doom hanging over the Schrader children's heads because their father is a navel gazing asshat.

[FJismyheadship]

Maybe it's more of a general statement about those Kellers who chose to leave Gothard and probably caught bloody hell for it from the parents, Anna, and Priscilla.

That said, I've speculated elsewhere that both Pris and Jana Duggar have spent extensive periods of time ALONE with this pervert, and both young women are his "type." So yeah, that's a definite possibility.

Maybe that explains why Priscilla was the last to marry, and why they picked David.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im guessing Gothard's teachings hurt the family because 3 of them escaped and live normal lives.

I hope he hasn't done anything to Priscilla. She just seems so sweet and not very bright.

[RachelB]

I'm not sure even Maria Goretti would "get a pass" from some of these people, they'd fine some reason that she was to blame in the first place.

Yup. They don't think Catholics are under God's protection. I would guess that would be her "culpability."

UGH.

[PennySycamore]

That's what I'm wondering.

Or to Esther herself? That may have played a part in John turning against Gothard.

[isarhenne]

I'm really worried about Jana and Pris now. Is Jana still going there? Did something happen to them? And all the other girls (and boys?)... I don't even want to think about it :(

[Coconut Flan]

I think another interpretation of damage could be the difficulties following Gothard has caused within their family especially with those sons and daughters who chose not to follow Gothard after leaving home.

[formergothardite]

I'm rather annoyed with Recovering Grace. I'm not praying for him to find 'grace". If I prayed I would be for his countless victims, that includes the people he never physically touched but his teachings destroyed their lives. And fuck just acknowledging that he heard the accusations and he didn't realize that his actions hurt people but now he sees that he did. He knew what he was doing. He is not some innocent, naïve soul that didn't know groping an underage girl was wrong.

[AlexIsAwake]

I feel the same way. I get what Recovering Grace is doing, in that they are trying to look like they are "above reproach" with all these allegations. They don't want the greater Christian community and Gothard followers being able to say that they are just out to ruin Gothard. It bothers me that they acknowledge Gothard may say it's all a big misunderstanding, and yet they fail to mention in the same sentence what an obvious load of shit that would be.

Maybe if I myself were still a Christian I'd feel differently, but it's laughable to me that they are praying for his genuine repentance and that he would experience the love of Christ blah blah blah. How can anyone look at him and all he's done and say he's a Christian? What IS obvious when you look at him and his actions is that he's a narcissist and likely a sociopath with no conscience. It makes me sick that all these people tomorrow on their day of prayer will be praying for that POS. I don't believe prayer does anyone a damn bit of good, but if there is something to be said for what good thoughts and energy may do when put out "into the universe," then they'd do much better to spend their time praying for the victims to heal.

[formergothardite]

What if what they pray for comes true? He makes a statement admitting he did these things, that he didn't realize that he was hurting people, but now he see how much hurt he caused and he is sorry. Then what? We are all just supposed to hug it out and go on our merry way like he didn't spend decades destroying lives?

[uber frau]

Even when I was a fundie that approach seemed stupid to me. Praying and hoping for a miraculous change of heart were all well and good, even expected. So was working toward forgiving the person that hurt you. But forgiving and forgetting aren't the same things, and as for miracles, well the whole *point* is that they are miraculous and not an outcome that can be expected.

So that being so, a huge part of your duty to "love your neighbour"(what with that being the applicable bit of the most important commandment and all that) in this sort of context is to find some sort of way to prevent this from happening again and to protect potential victims. And the way to do *that* in this culture is to get the police involved, to give him a fair trial and to do whatever is possible to stop him hurting more ppl.

I don't understand how that conflicts with anything a Christian is supposed to believe.