Bill Gothard Ousted - IBLP/ATI scandal - Merge

[SamuraiKatz]

I don't believe in sin. I believe in ethics and morals. Speaking for myself alone, it would be unethical and immoral to confront a possible victim of sexual abuse or sexual harassment in public with that sensitive issue. Even if the chances that they are a victim are <100/1. We can agree to differ on that.

And my point still stands on possible repercussions from security in confronting any of the Duggars on any difficult question in public.

I wouldn't have a problem posing that question to Jim Bob or Michelle. Especially Jim Bob since he holds the umbrella of protection.

Of the kids, Josh is the only one I would consider asking. He's had 5 years to get it together and hasn't. He's posted lots of douche bag comments on Twitter and Instagram and now works for the hate organization in DC. He's fair game.

[Ralar]

Most importantly, there is a distinct possibility that one or more of them may have been victimized sexually by Bill Gothard. Do you really think it would be kind or necessary to confront them with that issue in public? I think it would be downright cruel.

I hope a trusted adult (Grandma, Aunt Deana, or even Amy) has taken each of the older Duggar girls aside and spoken with them. It is very possible that JB and J'Chelle have not even told them "why" Got Hard resigned. I hope a trusted adult has explained that the abuse was not the victim's fault, and was solely the fault of Got Hard and the minions that protected him. Finally, I hope they made it clear that any of the kids could come to them for guidance, assistance and/or protection.

[Arete]

It would be unethical to ask them publically if they themselves have been abused. There is nothing unethical about calling Gothard out in front of them as a possible abuser. No one can change what may have already happened, but that does not mean shining a light on Gothard in front of the Duggar girls is off limits. Of all the possible victims, they are the only ones making money on the "bible teacher's" wisdom.That alone opens them up to questions about Gothard.

It is not in JB's interest to start using security to take care of difficult questions. It really cuts into the wholesome Christian image.

[FJSharkJump]

I don't have a link to it, but it was discussed in one of the other Duggar threads last year. An FJ member discussed here how she was going to the Duggars' yard sale they held on their property, and if she had the opportunity, she wanted to confront Michelle about Josie's apparently delayed development. She wanted to ask what was being done to help Josie. She also stated here that she was going to hide a mic and record the conversation. The Duggars got wind of it and had police there looking for the girl (as she even had posted what she would be wearing), and police escorted her out. I don't remember if there were charges brought against her, but I think it was all eventually dropped. At some point during the yard sale, signs were put up on the Duggars' fence saying no recordings allowed due to TLC filming. The FJ member said the signs weren't there when she arrived.

And this situation is TOTALLY different than someone just going to a book signing at B&N and asking what the Duggars think of the Gothard sex allegations. You can't really compare the two situations at all.

Thanks for the explanation. I missed that. And I also think that situation isn't really comparable to someone planning to ask about Gothard's resignation when meeting the Duggars at a book signing.

I haven't made up my mind on how acceptable/ethical it would be to present the Gothard question to the older Duggar girls women chattel. <---- The difficulty with defining them as adults might explain why.

[lemonhead]

Yes, it is fantasy.

You know, I think I have nailed down what really bothers me about how RG is going about this. I feel like they are still playing by ATIA/IBLP/Gothards rules. They are framing their responses and their choice of vernacular to appease the abusers. As someone said before, they are playing the game.

I hate it. I hate the dishonest, passive communication. How can you, in good conscience, issue a prayer request that the very system that abused so very many continue? There is something very wrong. It is that less-than-honest communication style that was drilled into us as kids.

I abhor the game playing. The ship is sinking and we are still trying to soften the blow for the abusers, including our parental units and others in leadership roles. I hate that we are still falling back on how we were talk to speak to and about people who put themselves in places of authority.

I am having a really tough time processing that my fellow religious X-ers still feel the need to issue prayer requests on my behalf as an apostate, even though I (and others) have more than once clearly explained how the lack of religion has helped our personal healing from growing up fundie. It feels like they can not hear us anymore than the folks at HQs and our parental units could. It is disheartening. It makes me want to close that door on my past and not look back, not even to help those who need someone to be there for them. That sucks. Royally.

The greatest tool in ending ATIA has been the personal accounts, not the refuted theology and doctrines.

My heart is sore. It is so terribly sore over this...so much so that I am typing about it to a forum full of people I don't know because many of the one that I do know consider throwing the apostate X-ers under the bus is a worth it for the appearance of the greater good.

Yep, you nailed it. RG is far too concerned about Gothard--his heart, his emotions, his salvation :roll:--in their approach. I don't know if the folks over there are aware of what they are doing; maybe it's a deliberate and calculated attempt to use Gothard's own principles against him, or maybe it's just the lingering echo of the teachings we grew up with, and they are subconsciously re-enacting the dynamic with him. It's an especially toxic kind of codependency, and it feeds right into Gothard's ego. There really is no need for the victims to be humble or worrying about having enough witnesses or concerned about how a bad report could damage to the church. It's time for the victims to start caring about themselves and standing up for themselves.

I'm with you on the doctrine--I don't give a flying rat's ass about his heresy and twisting of scriptures because I no longer identify as a christian. For me, it's all about the devastating trail of broken people, families, and hearts he has left behind him.

And now I must go to therapy, where we will surely discuss this. Maybe I should send my bills to Oak Brook, IL :lol:

[nokidsmom]

Yep, you nailed it. RG is far too concerned about Gothard--his heart, his emotions, his salvation :roll:--in their approach. I don't know if the folks over there are aware of what they are doing; maybe it's a deliberate and calculated attempt to use Gothard's own principles against him, or maybe it's just the lingering echo of the teachings we grew up with, and they are subconsciously re-enacting the dynamic with him. It's an especially toxic kind of codependency, and it feeds right into Gothard's ego. There really is no need for the victims to be humble or worrying about having enough witnesses or concerned about how a bad report could damage to the church. It's time for the victims to start caring about themselves and standing up for themselves.

I'm with you on the doctrine--I don't give a flying rat's ass about his heresy and twisting of scriptures because I no longer identify as a christian. For me, it's all about the devastating trail of broken people, families, and hearts he has left behind him.

And now I must go to therapy, where we will surely discuss this. Maybe I should send my bills to Oak Brook, IL :lol:

Agree with both posts above.

I honestly think RG has gone way too easy on BG and is way too concerned over doing it the Matt 18 way. Forget it. These are crimes that occurred here. There are people who had / have been hurt directly by BG even as he peddles his dysfunctional abusive beliefs which has also hurt entire families either directly or indirectly.

It may be that RG is taking the tone they are in order to get through to other fundies, that maybe this approach will work better than by taking a stronger stance, but still it comes across as being far too concerned about BG himself as compared to the folks who were hurt from where I sit.

Also, I am with the others that while he has stepped down, he still wields and will continue to wield a lot of power over ATI/IBLP even if it's in the background. People like him will not give up control easily.

[Palimpsest]

It would be unethical to ask them publically if they themselves have been abused. There is nothing unethical about calling Gothard out in front of them as a possible abuser. No one can change what may have already happened, but that does not mean shining a light on Gothard in front of the Duggar girls is off limits. Of all the possible victims, they are the only ones making money on the "bible teacher's" wisdom.That alone opens them up to questions about Gothard.

It is not in JB's interest to start using security to take care of difficult questions. It really cuts into the wholesome Christian image.

It may be that I am seeing different shades of grey here than you. Note, I did not accuse you or anyone else of black and white thinking here, I said different! To explain:

From my personal ethical point of view, I have no problems with asking this specific question publically of the Duggar parents, Grandma, Josh, JD, whatever other Duggar boys are no longer minors (I can't keep track) because, I agree, the Duggars are making money off Gothard's bullshit.

My reservations are only about the girls (because of the possibility of them being victims not because of their gender) and asking this question publically. This question. Asked publically. At a book signing with press cameras there. Potentially cruel. An ex-ATI person, me, you, or anyone else asking the same question privately and kindly would definitely shine the light.

The different shades of grey I'm seeing are probably because of my background and experiences. I've never been sexually abused but sexually harassed, yes. I know how helpless, humiliated and self-blaming I felt, and how hard I found it to confront. Which I did. I settled out of court with terms that satisfied me would: punish the person responsible and stop him from continuing to harass others; and shine a blinding light on the toxic work environment that allowed the situation to flourish, and that attempted to grind me into the ground for blowing a whistle very loudly. Senior management was forced to change their practices and implement new policies. A couple of Senior heads rolled. I was lucky enough to have found another position and left a few days after I settled. Thank goodness.

However, the experience - the sexual harassment itself and the aftermath - left me with a PTSD diagnosis and flashbacks that continue to this day, many years later. So I would never ask this specific question of a possible victim of Bill Gothard's sexual harassment or sexual abuse in public, however much money their family was making off selling his cult thinking.

It might not be in Jim Bob's interest to use security to deal with difficult questions but I'll eat a couple of hats if he doesn't. TLC has an interest in deflecting and managing all of this too. Their contracts are supposed to be iron-clad! I expect he'll make a public statement at some point but TLC will give them some sort of a script to follow.

[nausicaa]

It would be unethical to ask them publically if they themselves have been abused. There is nothing unethical about calling Gothard out in front of them as a possible abuser. No one can change what may have already happened, but that does not mean shining a light on Gothard in front of the Duggar girls is off limits. Of all the possible victims, they are the only ones making money on the "bible teacher's" wisdom.That alone opens them up to questions about Gothard.

It is not in JB's interest to start using security to take care of difficult questions. It really cuts into the wholesome Christian image.

Agreed. The older Duggar girls are adults now, and part of their immaturity is due to the fact that they have been shielded from so much in life. It's time for them to have to grapple with difficult topics and nuances so that they can grow up and begin to think for themselves. I think being asked a question about Gothard's actions and his resignation (not about whether he had personally been inappropriate with any of them) would be good for them. (Though my answer may be colored by the fact that I don't believe Gothard ever messed with a Duggar girl. Sexual predators are cowardly and the family has enough power from their notoriety to most likely scare off Gothard, and Gothard also knows a money train when he sees one).

That's said, yes, anyone who plans on doing this should be prepared for some fall out. Though I doubt they could get security to escort you out if you asked the question politely. What grounds would they have?

[nelliebelle1197]

You are quite right about Illinois and I must have missed your earlier post. Damn. This is something that should be changed at the Federal level. :x

I was just DEEPLY offended cause that means you are not waiting with bated breath for every little word I type. :nenner: :nenner: :nenner: :nenner:

[nokidsmom]

Agreed. The older Duggar girls are adults now, and part of their immaturity is due to the fact that they have been shielded from so much in life. It's time for them to have to grapple with difficult topics and nuances so that they can grow up and begin to think for themselves. I think being asked a question about Gothard's actions and his resignation (not about whether he had personally been inappropriate with any of them) would be good for them. (Though my answer may be colored by the fact that I don't believe Gothard ever messed with a Duggar girl. Sexual predators are cowardly and the family has enough power from their notoriety to most likely scare off Gothard, and Gothard also knows a money train when he sees one).

That's said, yes, anyone who plans on doing this should be prepared for some fall out. Though I doubt they could get security to escort you out if you asked the question politely. What grounds would they have?

I agree that asking the girls publically if they were actually abused by BG would be wrong. However a general question about the allegations and resignation to either the girls or in their presence might be okay (depends on how it would be worded) though I can see them not answering or being allowed to answer because it's a defrauding subject. I do think that BG knew better than mess with the daughters of the heavy hitters and money makers in his organization so in all liklihood any Duggar or Bates daughter was deemed "off limits" in his eyes. Predators are going to take care that they don't get caught and one way is to know whom not to mess with. So chances are they thought ol' Bill was just a sweet old man and nothing happened to them.

[Palimpsest]

I was just DEEPLY offended cause that means you are not waiting with bated breath for every little word I type. :nenner: :nenner: :nenner: :nenner:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, thanks for correcting my mistake.

[SamuraiKatz]

I think that every young woman who attended Journey to the Heart for the last decade needs to be contacted and questioned. Those who weren't abused may have seen something that wasn't quite right and followed gothard teaching about giving a good report blah blah blah. Some of those witness might be willing to come forward now that dear dictator has resigned in disgrace.

[OkToBeTakei]

I find it both heartening and sad that a bunch of allegedly internet heathen feminists (as viewed by others) strangers are more concerned about the ramifications of his children being questioned on Jim Bob's kids beliefs/upbringing than he is in ANY way, for bringing them up that way and cashing in on it :think:

[sophrosyne]

Chris Hogan, president of ATI taking an 'active role in the transition,' is the "relationship coach" that met with JB and Michelle in Puerto Rico! (See "Love and Marriage" episode last season.)

He's the genius that stood with a piece of rebar (and $10) between him and JB's throat...

[Tangy Bee]

Chris Hogan, president of ATI taking an 'active role in the transition,' is the "relationship coach" that met with JB and Michelle in Puerto Rico! (See "Love and Marriage" episode last season.)

He's the genius that stood with a piece of rebar (and $10) between him and JB's throat...

So is Chris Hogan the one who is running things at ATI? I've been trying to figure out who will take over the organization if anything happens to Gothard. How highly ranked is Pecan Thief?

[apple1]

... How highly ranked is Pecan Thief?

I have absolutely zero inside info, and this comment is nothing but my opinion.

I think Waller is a glorified "admin assistant", and nothing more. Somebody that could be managed or controlled.

[Rainytown]

I would be shocked if there was not heavy security at all Duggar book signings. I'm sure most have already noted they are held in "friendly" environs -- Christian book stores, etcetera -- and there will be little to no conversation with any of the Duggars during the events.

It's amazing to me the publisher will be footing the bill for the whole fam damily to show up, too. Book tours aren't greenlighted (on the publisher's dime) for anyone but those they expect to contribute handsomely to the publisher's bottom line, and it's hard to believe the Duggar daughters' book will sell briskly after recent events.

Of course, IMHO, YMMV.

[Palimpsest]

I would be shocked if there was not heavy security at all Duggar book signings. I'm sure most have already noted they are held in "friendly" environs -- Christian book stores, etcetera -- and there will be little to no conversation with any of the Duggars during the events.

It's amazing to me the publisher will be footing the bill for the whole fam damily to show up, too. Book tours aren't greenlighted (on the publisher's dime) for anyone but those they expect to contribute handsomely to the publisher's bottom line, and it's hard to believe the Duggar daughters' book will sell briskly after recent events.

Of course, IMHO, YMMV.

Love the bolded typo! I'm going to think of the Duggars as the fam damily from now on.

I agree with everything you said. The Duggars are TLC "celebrities!" In the wake of the scandal - lots of security.

Who is the publisher. Zondervan? Oh, forget that question because Google is my friend

[Becket70]

So what is Jim Boob going to do about the Gothard situation? I figure he has the following options. Please feel free to add to the list:

1. Ignore the situation and continue on as usual.

2. Ignore the situation but cut ties to the organization.

3. Acknowledge the situation but continue the relationship.

4. Acknowledge the situation and sever all ties with Gothard and the organization.

5. Step into a leadership position in ATI as God told him his leadership and wise counsel is needed at this time.

6. Admit he was wrong to be involved with Gothard.....just kidding. He would never admit he was wrong.

[Palimpsest]

So what is Jim Boob going to do about the Gothard situation? I figure he has the following options. Please feel free to add to the list:

1. Ignore the situation and continue on as usual.

2. Ignore the situation but cut ties to the organization.

3. Acknowledge the situation but continue the relationship.

4. Acknowledge the situation and sever all ties with Gothard and the organization.

5. Step into a leadership position in ATI as God told him his leadership and wise counsel is needed at this time.

6. Admit he was wrong to be involved with Gothard.....just kidding. He would never admit he was wrong.

7. Follow TLC's orders on how he should respond because he made a Faustian bargain when he sold his family's privacy to a network.

[nokidsmom]

7. Follow TLC's orders on how he should respond because he made a Faustian bargain when he sold his family's privacy to a network.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Think we have the winner!

[jaynie]

7. Follow TLC's orders on how he should respond because he made a Faustian bargain when he sold his family's privacy to a network.

Leading, most probably, to

8. If the situation can't be ignored, make a vague statement that could be interpreted as condemnation by casual fans. Then carry on as normal and hope the viewing masses are too gullible to notice.

And possibly

9. Curse those fundiewatching freejinger few who won't let it drop. :twisted:

[Becket70]

I will add number 10: Having now realized that it is probably okay to dance, JB and Michelle join the next season of Dancing With The Stars.

[lipstickgoalie]

Chris Hogan, president of ATI taking an 'active role in the transition,' is the "relationship coach" that met with JB and Michelle in Puerto Rico! (See "Love and Marriage" episode last season.)

He's the genius that stood with a piece of rebar (and $10) between him and JB's throat...

Wait. What's this about rebar?

[nelliebelle1197]

I find it both heartening and sad that a bunch of allegedly internet heathen feminists (as viewed by others) strangers are more concerned about the ramifications of his children being questioned on Jim Bob's kids beliefs/upbringing than he is in ANY way, for bringing them up that way and cashing in on it :think:

And I would totally agree with you if you'd get rid of the canned chicken.