Duggars, Duggars Everywhere - general discussion Part 4

[lizziesmom]

But she's also a grown adult. She can leave the fundie lifestyle anytime she chooses

That is naive. She has a sub education, three children and no experience at anything but wife/mom. She would have no support system because her supports system is by and large ATI families. Plus, she loves Josh.

[lizziesmom]

I don't think asking the Duggars about this will get any kind of satisfactory answer. They'll go all Sarah Palin and divert the topic. Or, as some one else said, they have a list of what they will and won't talk about in advance. The days of Woodward and Bernstein are long behind us. Reporters don't ask tough questions about national affairs, corruption in government, background and beliefs of political candidates. Why would they care about Gothard//ATI?

[PennySycamore]

I don't think asking the Duggars about this will get any kind of satisfactory answer. They'll go all Sarah Palin and divert the topic. Or, as some one else said, they have a list of what they will and won't talk about in advance. The days of Woodward and Bernstein are long behind us. Reporters don't ask tough questions about national affairs, corruption in government, background and beliefs of political candidates. Why would they care about Gothard//ATI?

Not to mention that the Duggars have long since scrubbed anything to do with Gothard/IBLP/ATI and Quiverfull from their website.

[Cleopatra7]

I don't think asking the Duggars about this will get any kind of satisfactory answer. They'll go all Sarah Palin and divert the topic. Or, as some one else said, they have a list of what they will and won't talk about in advance. The days of Woodward and Bernstein are long behind us. Reporters don't ask tough questions about national affairs, corruption in government, background and beliefs of political candidates. Why would they care about Gothard//ATI?

Once again, I think it's useful to compare media treatment of the Duggars to how Octomom has been treated. From the moment the Octomom story broke, people demanded to know what motivated her to have so many kids when she already had six at home. The initial "wow" factor quickly morphed into outrage, especially when it was revealed that she was on public assistance. Unlike JB and Michelle, Nadia Suyeman has been put to task for the choices she made in her life. Consequently, Suyeman has admitted/realized that she was having all these kids as a way to make up for the pain she was feeling in other aspects of her life and that despite her pro-life misgivings about having frozen embryos in a state of limbo, she made a mistake in having the octoplets. Maybe if the Duggars were on welfare or of a different race, the assumption of "Christian innocence" would evaporate. I just don't see why if reporters are willing to give Octomom the third degree (and her kids are much younger than most of the Duggar kids) that they can't do the same for the Duggars. If the Duggars don't want to answer tough questions about their lifestyle, they could have just remained anonymous rural fundies like most ATI people.

[Earthshine]

That is naive. She has a sub education, three children and no experience at anything but wife/mom. She would have no support system because her supports system is by and large ATI families. Plus, she loves Josh.

Three of her siblings managed to leave it (two of them being sisters.) I'm sure they would offer support if she chose to leave it.

[lizziesmom]

Three of her siblings managed to leave it (two of them being sisters.) I'm sure they would offer support if she chose to leave it.

Did they not do so before marrying a fundie and having three children? Anna is so tied up with the Duggar gray train she isn't going anywhere. I stand by my statement. You really think Joshua Duggar and his family would let her walk away with the three kids without a fight?

[Earthshine]

Did they not do so before marrying a fundie and having three children? Anna is so tied up with the Duggar gray train she isn't going anywhere. I stand by my statement. You really think Joshua Duggar and his family would let her walk away with the three kids without a fight?

One sister is married with two kids. One isn't and had a baby outside of marriage. The brother got married, moved away, and adopted a child. Of course there would be a fight. But she wouldn't be alone. Her siblings managed to leave the ATI lifestyle and would support her(which is my point.)

[DuggarTime]

That is naive. She has a sub education, three children and no experience at anything but wife/mom. She would have no support system because her supports system is by and large ATI families. Plus, she loves Josh.

Exactly. And if you believe that ATI is a "cult" (not saying it isn't), then you know cults are difficult to just walk away from. Plus, Anna doesn't seem to be resentful of the lifestyle she was raised in, she embraces it. So ATI might not be for everyone, but Anna seems perfectly content.

Back to my point of the children running around and playing, I really don't see that as not being well-behaved. I honestly believe kids learn more and become more creative when they have the chance to explore their world. I think that this is much healthier for kids than authoritarian style parenting and micromanaging. I think all little kids say inappropriate things sometimes. And even if they are raised by the older girls, the older girls seem like self-controlled, well-behaved young ladies.

[singsingsing]

Her sister Rebekah and her husband both left after they were married. I don't think Anna wants to leave, though. She never seems unhappy. She never seems discontent. She always talks about wanting MORE children. I've always gotten the impression that even if Anna wasn't raised fundie she'd be the sort to want to be a stay at home wife with 5+ kids. Michelle is the opposite, I think if she hadn't gotten sucked into Gothardism she would've been much happier with 2 kids going to public school, a job, and an active social life outside the home.

[Earthshine]

What makes the Duggar children seem like they aren't well-behaved? Standing on dining room tables, walking on counters, covering their ears and making faces when at the church where Josh and Anna learned Marcus was a boy, covering their ears and making faces at the Ethiopian restaurant, sneaking pre-packaged snacks to the dining room table in Japan, etc. Those kids can be quite rude and there doesn't seem to be any prompting to be polite. To me, that behavior is unacceptable.

[GeoBQn]

What makes the Duggar children seem like they aren't well-behaved? Standing on dining room tables, walking on counters, covering their ears and making faces when at the church where Josh and Anna learned Marcus was a boy, covering their ears and making faces at the Ethiopian restaurant, sneaking pre-packaged snacks to the dining room table in Japan, etc. Those kids can be quite rude and there doesn't seem to be any prompting to be polite. To me, that behavior is unacceptable.

Add to that destroying the cookies that Joy made, feeding cheese to the puppies against Michelle's orders until the puppies threw up . . .

[Cleopatra7]

Exactly. And if you believe that ATI is a "cult" (not saying it isn't), then you know cults are difficult to just walk away from. Plus, Anna doesn't seem to be resentful of the lifestyle she was raised in, she embraces it. So ATI might not be for everyone, but Anna seems perfectly content.

Back to my point of the children running around and playing, I really don't see that as not being well-behaved. I honestly believe kids learn more and become more creative when they have the chance to explore their world. I think that this is much healthier for kids than authoritarian style parenting and micromanaging. I think all little kids say inappropriate things sometimes. And even if they are raised by the older girls, the older girls seem like self-controlled, well-behaved young ladies.[]b]

The Duggars, young and old, show complete distain for people who are outside of ATI. When the family went to the integrated church in Little Rock that played contemporary Christian music, the kids looked terrified. They were very rude on the trip to England, not even hiding their dislike of the food (JD said something really stupid when they went for high tea, but I don't remember what it was) and the foreign customs. How can the younger kids be expected to behave properly when the adults act so poorly?

[paganhomeschooler]

Back to my point of the children running around and playing, I really don't see that as not being well-behaved. I honestly believe kids learn more and become more creative when they have the chance to explore their world. I think that this is much healthier for kids than authoritarian style parenting and micromanaging. I think all little kids say inappropriate things sometimes. And even if they are raised by the older girls, the older girls seem like self-controlled, well-behaved young ladies.

The older girls seem like "self-controlled, well-behaved young ladies" because they were blanket trained. The Duggars are abyssmal parents. They hit babies! They taunted babies off blankets and them hit them because they crawled off. NOT OKAY! They may have slacked off on the blanket training with the little ones, which I'm glad for, but those kids are just plain unruly. As PP said, the kids WALK on countertops and lick cake batter from them. They are rude in any situation that is different for them. And on and on ad nauseum.

I have 4 kids. I am not authoritarian or a micromanager. My kids are well-behaved, and they're told that all the time by people who appreciate it out in public. My kids are not allowed to sit on the arms of our furniture, let alone walk on my counters! There is a difference between having creative fun and exploration through play (which my kids do) versus acting along the lines of a feral child (which the Duggars age 10 and down do.) My kids play in the mud, climb trees, ride bikes, make arts and crafts projects, and cook, but they don't run around like they've never been given a rule in their life. Have you seen the Duggar kids in restaurants?? Unruly children at restaurants is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. Children can be taught to be polite, to stay in their seat, and to speak in an appropriate manner. My 5 yo mastered it several years ago, but some of the Duggar teenagers haven't. (China and UK trips, anyone??)

I would also say that the "self-control" you speak of is less self control and more the remnants of fear of getting beaten. Look at what happened to Smuggar when he got out on his own. How'd all that "self-control" work out for him and his health?? His Instagram feed says not so hot.

[nausicaa]

Once again, I think it's useful to compare media treatment of the Duggars to how Octomom has been treated. From the moment the Octomom story broke, people demanded to know what motivated her to have so many kids when she already had six at home. The initial "wow" factor quickly morphed into outrage, especially when it was revealed that she was on public assistance. Unlike JB and Michelle, Nadia Suyeman has been put to task for the choices she made in her life. Consequently, Suyeman has admitted/realized that she was having all these kids as a way to make up for the pain she was feeling in other aspects of her life and that despite her pro-life misgivings about having frozen embryos in a state of limbo, she made a mistake in having the octoplets. Maybe if the Duggars were on welfare or of a different race, the assumption of "Christian innocence" would evaporate. I just don't see why if reporters are willing to give Octomom the third degree (and her kids are much younger than most of the Duggar kids) that they can't do the same for the Duggars. If the Duggars don't want to answer tough questions about their lifestyle, they could have just remained anonymous rural fundies like most ATI people.

While I agree that the media is way too easy on the Duggars, I do think the Octomom case isn't completely analogous to the Duggars.

She was already on public assistance, several of her older children were special needs and reported to be having issues in school, and having eight newborns at once is different in terms of demands than having children spaced out. She was also a single parent (I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to be a single mother, but I do think one needs to be honest about how much one can realistically take on and she was relying heavily on her parents, who were not on board with her procreation decisions, unlike JimBob and Michelle who always at least presented a united front). There was the additional ethical issue of the doctor's involvement.

That being said, I am tired of mega families of all stripes being held up as something that is automatically honorable and something everyone (particularly women) should aspire to have.

[3 ring circus]

Did you see this?

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/ ... legations/

[ljohnson2006]

It'd be nice if the girls had some self-confidence. I think most of them are too foregone to know what the real world is like.

[formergothardite]

Exactly. And if you believe that ATI is a "cult" (not saying it isn't), then you know cults are difficult to just walk away from. Plus, Anna doesn't seem to be resentful of the lifestyle she was raised in, she embraces it. So ATI might not be for everyone, but Anna seems perfectly content.

Back to my point of the children running around and playing, I really don't see that as not being well-behaved. I honestly believe kids learn more and become more creative when they have the chance to explore their world. I think that this is much healthier for kids than authoritarian style parenting and micromanaging. I think all little kids say inappropriate things sometimes. And even if they are raised by the older girls, the older girls seem like self-controlled, well-behaved young ladies.

If you aren't saying it isn't a cult why did you put it in quotes? Just curious.

No one said anything about running around and playing being not well behaved. Or about not exploring their world. Or that an authoritative style is better. But walking on tables and cabinets and saying 'eww" when offered food is generally considered to be bad manners.

[FloraDoraDolly]

The older girls seem like "self-controlled, well-behaved young ladies" because they were blanket trained. The Duggars are abyssmal parents. They hit babies! They taunted babies off blankets and them hit them because they crawled off. NOT OKAY! They may have slacked off on the blanket training with the little ones, which I'm glad for, but those kids are just plain unruly. As PP said, the kids WALK on countertops and lick cake batter from them. They are rude in any situation that is different for them. And on and on ad nauseum.

I have 4 kids. I am not authoritarian or a micromanager. My kids are well-behaved, and they're told that all the time by people who appreciate it out in public. My kids are not allowed to sit on the arms of our furniture, let alone walk on my counters! There is a difference between having creative fun and exploration through play (which my kids do) versus acting along the lines of a feral child (which the Duggars age 10 and down do.) My kids play in the mud, climb trees, ride bikes, make arts and crafts projects, and cook, but they don't run around like they've never been given a rule in their life. Have you seen the Duggar kids in restaurants?? Unruly children at restaurants is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. Children can be taught to be polite, to stay in their seat, and to speak in an appropriate manner. My 5 yo mastered it several years ago, but some of the Duggar teenagers haven't. (China and UK trips, anyone??)

I would also say that the "self-control" you speak of is less self control and more the remnants of fear of getting beaten. Look at what happened to Smuggar when he got out on his own. How'd all that "self-control" work out for him and his health?? His Instagram feed says not so hot.

According to the first Duggar book, Michelle didn't start blanket training until she had her second set of twins (Jed and Jer). She wrote that also used blanket training on Joy at that time, since she was only a year older. While I doubt that Michelle spared the rod with the oldest children, she didn't start blanket training until they were long past toddlerhood. (Was blanket training even a thing that far back?)

[pega127]

The Extra NYC interview made me sick when they presented the Duggars with a gift card to go clothes shopping. This is right after they announce how many millions JB is worth! Shameful that such "Christians" would accept and use the gift card! Stupid that Extra would give them one! Hey Duggars what happened to "J. O. Y. "???

[ljohnson2006]

J'Chelle actually admits that she blanket trained her kids? I'm surprised.

[ljohnson2006]

It's J'Chelle first, others second, and Young girls last.

[DuggarTime]

She doesn't admit to the "blanket training" that involves hitting the child if they move off of the blanket. She admits to training her children to learn how to sit still for short periods of time by giving them a toy or book and telling them not to move off a blanket. She said she does this by gradually increasing the amount of time. 5 minutes or so to start, up to 30 minutes. She never says she hits them.

People will claim she posted about hitting the kids on an internet blog before she was famous, but, there is no evidence.

[DuggarTime]

The Extra NYC interview made me sick when they presented the Duggars with a gift card to go clothes shopping. This is right after they announce how many millions JB is worth! Shameful that such "Christians" would accept and use the gift card! Stupid that Extra would give them one! Hey Duggars what happened to "J. O. Y. "???

What is not Christian about using a gift card?

[formergothardite]

You don't have to hit for blanket training to be a fucked up thing to do. Seriously no small child or toddler should be forced to sit on a blanket for 30 minutes without getting off.

[DuggarTime]

Add to that destroying the cookies that Joy made, feeding cheese to the puppies against Michelle's orders until the puppies threw up . . .

Kids will be kids! Mine climb on furniture and make forts out of the couch cushions... they climb on the counter if they can't reach things and need to make food (at least they are being self-sufficient.)