Jessa is Courting! All Things Duggar Family - Part 7

[FloraDoraDolly]

No, I'm sorry but you don't KNOW that the children have no education or training to be successful in careers that they choose to pursue. In order for you to KNOW that you would have to have first hand knowledge of each child's educational career (as in having seen their records, test scores, etc.) and I don't know anyone who posts here who has done so. You also do not KNOW that they don't have training to be successful in a career - John David appears to be successful in his business (from what we have seen from the show - that's all that we have to go on) and Josh has been a businessman and now moving into politics (whether we agree with his politics or not) and the older girls are pursuing their career objectives. It's absoutely fine to have opinions about the Duggars and to speculate but we don't really KNOW a great deal about their personal lives and it's just ridiculous to make statements as if you do.

From what we've seen of Jessa on TV, I would say she is definitely employable. She has strong organizational skills (running the homeschool, packing for trips) plus she did very well the day she worked at the coffee shop for charity. She can make it in the real world just fine. I do have concerns about several of the younger Duggar children-- the "lost girls" who still speak like toddlers, Jackson and James who were shown struggling with workbooks meant for younger children. However, I think Jessa and Ben are too young to get married right away. They might be planning for a long courtship/engagement. I hope so.

[PennySycamore]

Maternal nutrition has little to do with the child-spacing effects of breastfeeding. It's much more due to the frequency of breastfeeding, nurturing your child at the breast, and late weaning (6 months or later.) My first two were almost three years apart due to breastfeeding and my second and third daughters 2 1/2 years. By nurturing at the breast, mom soothes the baby at the breast and pacifiers (dummies) are avoided.

[singsingsing]

When they go from victim to abuser. As the PP said, when they have kids.

Yeah, that makes sense. I really think this one of the greatest tragedies of fundamentalism, that it's a system primed to turn victims into abusers, continuing the cycle unless someone manages to break free... I do think that fundies lie across a broad spectrum and not all of them are abusers, but even the ones who are not abusing/being abused are much more at risk to falling into that cycle because the system condones it.

[Arete]

I think ANY child who has been abused has is more likely to become an abuser compared to children who are not abused. That is one of the many tragedies of child abuse, whether it happens in a religious environment or not.

[sunshine]

Can anyone post Ben Seewald's twitter link?

[singsingsing]

I think ANY child who has been abused has is more likely to become an abuser compared to children who are not abused. That is one of the many tragedies of child abuse, whether it happens in a religious environment or not.

That's what makes me wonder about a lot of these people who came from secular or at least non-fundamentalist backgrounds and yet embraced the whole system so willingly. I remember finding the myth of the perfect fundie lifestyle attractive when I was at the lowest point in my life, but even then it didn't take long for me to realize that it was at best a fairy tale and at worst a messed up, ignorant, and dangerous way of life. What's going on with these people that they miss all the warning signs and dive right in?

[singsingsing]

Can anyone post Ben Seewald's twitter link?

twitter.com/BenSeewald

[slp]

Maternal nutrition has little to do with the child-spacing effects of breastfeeding. It's much more due to the frequency of breastfeeding, nurturing your child at the breast, and late weaning (6 months or later.) My first two were almost three years apart due to breastfeeding and my second and third daughters 2 1/2 years. By nurturing at the breast, mom soothes the baby at the breast and pacifiers (dummies) are avoided.

This is all true, however, not always, of course. My mother in law nursed her 2 kids exclusively for nearly 2 years each, soothing at the breast, no pacifiers, etc. She started her cycle up at 8 weeks like clockwork with both.

Me, on the other hand? I do use pacifiers, but I do nurse to 2 years old, and I nurse 'on demand', through the night, etc. I am unable to conceive until at least 15 months post partum, sometimes longer. (which is fine with me!)

[Mama Mia]

Maternal nutrition has little to do with the child-spacing effects of breastfeeding. It's much more due to the frequency of breastfeeding, nurturing your child at the breast, and late weaning (6 months or later.) My first two were almost three years apart due to breastfeeding and my second and third daughters 2 1/2 years. By nurturing at the breast, mom soothes the baby at the breast and pacifiers (dummies) are avoided.

It also just depends on the moms own unique biology to an extent, and even that varies over time. I always got my periods within 2 months of delivery, despite cosleeping/ and having the baby on the boob all the time. Despite this I got pregnant with my 4th when my third was 5 months. But I wanted my 1st and 2nd to be about 2 years apart but wasn't able to get pregnant until after the oldest s 2nd birthday. You can take measures to increase the likelihood of a longer natural gap through breastfeeding exclusively, baby wearing, etc. but believe m, it is not a guarantee.

Back to Jessa and this boy. Do fundamentalists ever have a young married couple live at home for awhile, or are they always expected to get their own place? I know the Duggars are wealthy, and have properties, so I'm sure it's not an issue for them to have their own place right away, but is that the norm?

[Mama Mia]

That's what makes me wonder about a lot of these people who came from secular or at least non-fundamentalist backgrounds and yet embraced the whole system so willingly. I remember finding the myth of the perfect fundie lifestyle attractive when I was at the lowest point in my life, but even then it didn't take long for me to realize that it was at best a fairy tale and at worst a messed up, ignorant, and dangerous way of life. What's going on with these people that they miss all the warning signs and dive right in?

Yeah, I don't understand how the ones who grew up with fairly normal parenting can embrace a system that is so openly physically abusive. If your parents were abusive it might make sense, but how do you go from a system where there was generally minimal physical discipline to believing its okay to systematically beat infants ? That is one hell of a leap. I can see how you might want to be stricter than your parents, or go from a no physical punishment to minimal physical punishment, particularly if you felt your life wasn't structured enough, but can't imagine how someone comes across the Pearls and decides that's acceptable.

[walnut]

That's what makes me wonder about a lot of these people who came from secular or at least non-fundamentalist backgrounds and yet embraced the whole system so willingly. I remember finding the myth of the perfect fundie lifestyle attractive when I was at the lowest point in my life, but even then it didn't take long for me to realize that it was at best a fairy tale and at worst a messed up, ignorant, and dangerous way of life. What's going on with these people that they miss all the warning signs and dive right in?

OMG, I've been there too. It didn't last for too long but you know you're having it real bad when fundie life seems ideal to you.

The people that miss the warning sings (willfully, mostly... because it's more comfortable to take responsibility and act until it's too late) will end up like Lori and her clones. In the hamster's wheel. Unless they take responsibility and act. It's them or no one else. Nobody is going to save them.

[OkToBeTakei]

No, I'm sorry but you don't KNOW that the children have no education or training to be successful in careers that they choose to pursue. In order for you to KNOW that you would have to have first hand knowledge of each child's educational career (as in having seen their records, test scores, etc.) and I don't know anyone who posts here who has done so. You also do not KNOW that they don't have training to be successful in a career - John David appears to be successful in his business (from what we have seen from the show - that's all that we have to go on) and Josh has been a businessman and now moving into politics (whether we agree with his politics or not) and the older girls are pursuing their career objectives. It's absoutely fine to have opinions about the Duggars and to speculate but we don't really KNOW a great deal about their personal lives and it's just ridiculous to make statements as if you do.

Hmm choice is relative if you CHOOSE to be a midwife or own your own business. Pretty sure in X amount of seasons we have seen none of them tearfully packed off to college or University so you are right obviously just none of them have chosen to pursue a career which would require this. Unusual don't you think none of them have that ambition, but hey it's ridiculous to think this is just a coincidence eh?

[walnut]

Yeah, that makes sense. I really think this one of the greatest tragedies of fundamentalism, that it's a system primed to turn victims into abusers, continuing the cycle unless someone manages to break free... I do think that fundies lie across a broad spectrum and not all of them are abusers, but even the ones who are not abusing/being abused are much more at risk to falling into that cycle because the system condones it.

Um... I, somehow, fail to put the blame on the system, and on the system only.

There's this African model, who had her genitals mutilated as a little girl and was to be married off to an old man... she lived in the desert and she freaking escaped before her wedding. She was in reader's digest, that's where I first read about her.

She ran, and she was like, 11, alone in the freaken desert, she chose to take chances like that to save her life so... what exactly is the excuse for any adult (18+) living in first-world countries to stay with their daddy until they have menopause or are married off?! We have shelters, welfare system, there is no way in this world that they couldn't find an opportunity... if they wanted to. When does personal responsibility enter the picture here?! People cannot be treated as victims for their entire lives. At some point it's not "Why me?", it's, "Okay, it was me, now what." The Duggar spawns have all the resources if they wanted to escape. The media, relatives, their jus from TLC that JimBob is having his pawns on. Any lawyer would be happy to take their case. No, I cannot find any excuse for them.

[walnut]

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waris_Dirie She is the one I was talking about. She had it definitely worse than any Duggar or Bates or Maxwell...

[scc12]

Um... I, somehow, fail to put the blame on the system, and on the system only.

There's this African model, who had her genitals mutilated as a little girl and was to be married off to an old man... she lived in the desert and she freaking escaped before her wedding. She was in reader's digest, that's where I first read about her.

She ran, and she was like, 11, alone in the freaken desert, she chose to take chances like that to save her life so... what exactly is the excuse for any adult (18+) living in first-world countries to stay with their daddy until they have menopause or are married off?! We have shelters, welfare system, there is no way in this world that they couldn't find an opportunity... if they wanted to. When does personal responsibility enter the picture here?! People cannot be treated as victims for their entire lives. At some point it's not "Why me?", it's, "Okay, it was me, now what." The Duggar spawns have all the resources if they wanted to escape. The media, relatives, their jus from TLC that JimBob is having his pawns on. Any lawyer would be happy to take their case. No, I cannot find any excuse for them.

This is true.I respect ppl who think for themselves and make their own decisions.I also respect the right to question beliefs,and to reject some or all of them if not found personally to be compatible with one's own beliefs.

That said,the first thing I would have a problem with is allowing any man to treat me as a broodmare.And worse yet,my family approving of it.And that's just for starters.My other peeves would be the uber conservative clothes,lack of education,needing approval for a relationship,and not be allowed to go out and find a real job.

[walnut]

Women in patriarchal families are treated like slaves... so if an adult decides to "escape" from slavery into broodmarehood and worse slavery... what shall I say. It's really dumb and not well thought out?

[scc12]

Yes,aren't there better way of escaping fundiedom,esp.in a free society?

[Rachel333]

I don't think anyone's excusing fundies because of how they were brought up--personal responsibility definitely exists--but I think it does help to understand how someone could stay sucked in to that lifestyle.

I also imagine that it's a lot different escaping from a really serious situation like the one that Somalian woman (who is amazing!) was in than from a life like the Duggars or even most of the other fundies we talk about have. If one of them decided to leave they'd have a much, much easier time, but the decision probably also seems a lot less obvious or pressing.

[mausi]

I don't think anyone's excusing fundies because of how they were brought up--personal responsibility definitely exists--but I think it does help to understand how someone could stay sucked in to that lifestyle.

I also imagine that it's a lot different escaping from a really serious situation like the one that Somalian woman (who is amazing!) was in than from a life like the Duggars or even most of the other fundies we talk about have. If one of them decided to leave they'd have a much, much easier time, but the decision probably also seems a lot less obvious or pressing.

I agree. In the grand scale of things (i.e. compared to the above Somalian example) most of them have a fairly comfortable life. And despite all these feelings that tend to get projected on them -- 'they have dead eyes' 'her smile doesn't reach her eyes', etc -- we don't really know for a fact that too many of them are truly unhappy.

[bal maiden]

Um... I, somehow, fail to put the blame on the system, and on the system only.

There's this African model, who had her genitals mutilated as a little girl and was to be married off to an old man... she lived in the desert and she freaking escaped before her wedding. She was in reader's digest, that's where I first read about her.

She ran, and she was like, 11, alone in the freaken desert, she chose to take chances like that to save her life so... what exactly is the excuse for any adult (18+) living in first-world countries to stay with their daddy until they have menopause or are married off?! We have shelters, welfare system, there is no way in this world that they couldn't find an opportunity... if they wanted to. When does personal responsibility enter the picture here?! People cannot be treated as victims for their entire lives. At some point it's not "Why me?", it's, "Okay, it was me, now what." The Duggar spawns have all the resources if they wanted to escape. The media, relatives, their jus from TLC that JimBob is having his pawns on. Any lawyer would be happy to take their case. No, I cannot find any excuse for them.

The anecdote used to illustrate your point is idiotic. Have you any idea how many Somalian girls run away to then get caught and punished? Or how many die in the attempt? Versus how many escape and become famous and successful models? Using an outlier like from which to extrapolate a general moral rule is like saying the American Dream works because Bill Gates got rich, never mind the thousands of others who didn't succeed.

You can make your point about personal responsibility, which is a perfectly valid point albeit one with which I disagree, without using faulty logic and reasoning to do so.

[walnut]

The "anecdote"... have you missed my link to her Wikipedia link? What makes you think it's an anecdote? Just because she's brave beyond most people's imagination (that's the kind of world we are living in) and her attempt to run was crowned with great fame and success, does not make her story an anecdote. It won't degrade a huge success story into an urban legend, no matter how comforting it would be.

Fine, I'll put it this way. The ones that do not ask for help in a first world country and do not flee after they turn 18, are there because they want to and if they continue to live in that hell and create another hell for another litter of children, they deserve what lies ahead for them. BTW, Waris Dirie is a Heroine.

[walnut]

OFF http://www.desertflowerfoundation.org/

Oh, this happens to be her foundation for girls and women. "For over 12 years, Waris Dirie has fought against female genital mutilation (FGM) worldwide. At least 150 million women and girls are affected by this cruel practice, which continues to be performed in Africa, but also in Asia, Europe, America and Australia." She's quite a hero so I would not try to make fun of her story and call it degrading names, what she has been doing for other girls and women is outstanding. She did not only liberate herself, she dedicated her life to helping people. ON

[bal maiden]

'Anecdote' does not imply a story is not true; I am familiar with her story and have the greatest respect for her. My point was about *your* use of her story - anecdotal evidence - to make a larger moral point

[Dutch_girl]

Maybe it is their choice to stay, because it is a first world country and all.. But I don't know if it is so bad for them that they are willing to take the consequences: Breaking all the family-bonds, no more contact with your parents and brothers and sisters (who you taken care of for years, so you are really close too them!) and losing all your friends. To me that seems like a hard to do, and I think the difference is that these girls/women don't need to escape to safe their lives, just to make their lives less misserable, a live they know and in which they are safe, and I think that gives gives you less strength than if you have to run to save your live

[scc12]

They are probably afraid of the gossip and such that will ensue in the fundie circles as well.No one wants to be spoken poorly of,esp.if it isn't true.