Jessa is Courting! All Things Duggar Family - Part 7

[Sass]

Walnut...the word 'anecdote' is not an insult....it basically just means a short story used to support a point.

[walnut]

If their parents had unconditional love for them... they would not disown them for just "breaking fundamentalism", they would love and support them against all odds. But they "put God first", before their own children, we know that.

[walnut]

Walnut...the word 'anecdote' is not an insult....it basically just means a short story used to support a point.

Thank you, I know what you're saying. Not to play tug-o-wars on words here but it wasn't quite a "short story", an anecdote or anything. And in that context, after the really insulting "idiotic", the word "anecdote" did have a certain undertone. I overlooked the word "idiotic", because idgaff, honestly. But this Woman, Waris is not some hammer-licking 18-yo celebrity who stick her tongue out at the crowd for entertainment and her life is not an anecdote.

It was the entire life story of a woman who underwent FGM, escaped from being a child bride and to the day, she keeps giving and giving and giving back to every single women in the world. I consider myself a fortunate one, so she "only" gave me a large dose of inspiration and humility. Sorry if I came off overprotective of her, but she is one of the icons out there that keep showing good example to women and young girls out there and she has made an impact on this era - no drama. People that follow her know it's true. I'm done talking about her, I promise. But she alone, her existence and lifework makes a spoiled and rich Duggar's excuses invalid. Now, ON, truly.

[Mama Mia]

Thank you, I know what you're saying. Not to play tug-o-wars on words here but it wasn't quite a "short story", an anecdote or anything. And in that context, after the really insulting "idiotic", the word "anecdote" did have a certain undertone. I overlooked the word "idiotic", because idgaff, honestly. But this Woman, Waris is not some hammer-licking 18-yo celebrity who stick her tongue out at the crowd for entertainment and her life is not an anecdote.

It was the entire life story of a woman who underwent FGM, escaped from being a child bride and to the day, she keeps giving and giving and giving back to every single women in the world. I consider myself a fortunate one, so she "only" gave me a large dose of inspiration and humility. Sorry if I came off overprotective of her, but she is one of the icons out there that keep showing good example to women and young girls out there and she has made an impact on this era - no drama. People that follow her know it's true. I'm done talking about her, I promise. But she alone, her existence and lifework makes a spoiled and rich Duggar's excuses invalid. Now, ON, truly.

You still are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "anecdote" and trying to twist it into an insult. It isn't. It wasn't even used in a dismissive manner, which I know it sometimes can be. It's just saying that this one very exceptional woman's experience can't be used as a generalization of the experience of most women in asimilar situation.

[walnut]

Cool ;)

I guess Jessa's going to be a pretty bride. (Are we there yet or we don't know how serious they are?) Her MIL-to-be is really good looking. She has look that I call Southern look - no snark here - on her, light hair, fine facial structure. Lot of Southern woman share certain features.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Personally, someone's life doesn't have to be an absolute fucking horror show for me to feel sympathy for their situation. I guess you could tell every Westerner who is depressed, in an abusive relationship, etc. to STFU because at least they are not starving and undergoing FGM in Somalia. But human suffering doesn't actually work like that.

[tlcarlaw]

Cool ;)

I guess Jessa's going to be a pretty bride. (Are we there yet or we don't know how serious they are?)

I think Jessa is the prettiest of the Duggar older girls with Jana being a close second.

As far as all the other stuff about escaping and having the nerve or the courage or whatever. Did anyone ever think they are actually happy with their life. Most of us did not grow up like they did so we put ourselves in their circumstances and imagine they must be miserable. I would imagine all or at least most of them don't see it like that at all. I think they are happy with the life they have now. Just look how things where for them 10 years ago compare to how things are now. They went from living in a tiny cramped houses wearing ugly prairie dresses having their mother have a baby every year that they had to help care for to now where they go on trips across the world and country, have a large beautiful house to live in, can dress stylishly, and they have far less responsibilities at home Josie being the youngest is almost 4 all of the boys are old enough to basically do everything for themselves so that just leaves the little girls to help with. There life has never been better. I know this is a snark board but sometimes it drives me crazy when people turn speculation and turn it into fact.

[Peas n carrots]

I think Jessa is the prettiest of the Duggar older girls with Jana being a close second.

As far as all the other stuff about escaping and having the nerve or the courage or whatever. Did anyone ever think they are actually happy with their life. Most of us did not grow up like they did so we put ourselves in their circumstances and imagine they must be miserable. I would imagine all or at least most of them don't see it like that at all. I think they are happy with the life they have now. Just look how things where for them 10 years ago compare to how things are now. They went from living in a tiny cramped houses wearing ugly prairie dresses having their mother have a baby every year that they had to help care for to now where they go on trips across the world and country, have a large beautiful house to live in, can dress stylishly, and they have far less responsibilities at home Josie being the youngest is almost 4 all of the boys are old enough to basically do everything for themselves so that just leaves the little girls to help with. There life has never been better. I know this is a snark board but sometimes it drives me crazy when people turn speculation and turn it into fact.

This. The J'slaves seem to be pretty tight knit and they have each other's backs. If they get married off and move (depending how far away) they move away from that support system.

I think some of us project onto them...personally, I would be miserable in that lifestyle as I like being independent and having a good deal of control in my life. They could very well be miserable having my type of life...they've never had to make difficult financial decisions, or trying to get ahead in the workplace etc. The only problem I have with their lifestyle is they aren't given the choice to not be a SAHD without some potentially ugly consequences, like losing their support network or financial security.

[veron1que]

But isn't Jill working? Albeit it's not as separate from the lifestyle as attending medical school, still she's pursuing a profession. That doesn't seem like their only choice is to be a stay at home mom.

I definitely think there are fundie families that do treat their daughters like property, but my problem with the duggars is not that. On the contrary I think all of the older kids were raised ok, because their parents still had time and energy to care for them when they were young. I don't think raising kids in a religion is abuse, even if the religion has doctrines that limit behavior. It is the young children who I feel have been wronged, for while they do less chores, they are too numerous to receive enough attention from the adults in their lives.

[tlcarlaw]

But isn't Jill working? Albeit it's not as separate from the lifestyle as attending medical school, still she's pursuing a profession. That doesn't seem like their only choice is to be a stay at home mom.

I definitely think there are fundie families that do treat their daughters like property, but my problem with the duggars is not that. On the contrary I think all of the older kids were raised ok, because their parents still had time and energy to care for them when they were young. I don't think raising kids in a religion is abuse, even if the religion has doctrines that limit behavior. It is the young children who I feel have been wronged, for while they do less chores, they are too numerous to receive enough attention from the adults in their lives.

I agree especially little Jordyn. I think she got her mothers attention the least because of Josie being early and needing so much of Michelle's time and attention for the first year or two. I was luckily enough to have two healthy babies so I don't know what it's like to have a baby in the NICU but I didn't agree with her spending every waking second with Josie. Personally I think she should of split her time between the NICU and her other kids. I read in their book she spent something like 9am to 9pm there everyday so it's not speculation it's fact. Jordyn needed her mommy too, they all did. I don't agree when people say she doesn't love her kids I think she really loves them all and is doing what in her heart she feels is best for them. I just don't agree with her opinions on what she thinks is best. Some of the fundie families are neglectful and abusive to their kids. it's terrible I cant even imagine abusing a baby but I just don't think the Bates and the Duggars are like that. Are they overly strict and manipulative? Yes I think so. Do they smack or hit their kids? Probably but I don't think they are beaten. I know a lot of people hear won't agree with me it's just my opinion. Do the kids get enough individual attention obviously not. But I don't think as soon as the cameras leave Michelle goes up in her room and ignores her kids the rest of the day and secretly hates and resents them. I think she is genuinely what you see on TV like her or hate her.

[sassycupcake]

I agree especially little Jordyn. I think she got her mothers attention the least because of Josie being early and needing so much of Michelle's time and attention for the first year or two. I was luckily enough to have two healthy babies so I don't know what it's like to have a baby in the NICU but I didn't agree with her spending every waking second with Josie. Personally I think she should of split her time between the NICU and her other kids. I read in their book she spent something like 9am to 9pm there everyday so it's not speculation it's fact. Jordyn needed her mommy too, they all did.

I can't blame J'chelle for choosing to spend her time with Josie in the NICU the way she did. She had no idea if Josie would live or die, and if Josie had died, J'chelle would have felt so guilty over every second she didn't spend with Josie while she was alive. I can't judge her for any decisions she made in that position, because I can't comprehend what it was like.

I can blame her for failing to spend time with her kids once Josie was home. Josie was/is special needs, but J'chelle didn't need to spend all of her time camped in her bedroom with her.

[August]

Um... I, somehow, fail to put the blame on the system, and on the system only.

There's this African model, who had her genitals mutilated as a little girl and was to be married off to an old man... she lived in the desert and she freaking escaped before her wedding. She was in reader's digest, that's where I first read about her.

She ran, and she was like, 11, alone in the freaken desert, she chose to take chances like that to save her life so... what exactly is the excuse for any adult (18+) living in first-world countries to stay with their daddy until they have menopause or are married off?! We have shelters, welfare system, there is no way in this world that they couldn't find an opportunity... if they wanted to. When does personal responsibility enter the picture here?! People cannot be treated as victims for their entire lives. At some point it's not "Why me?", it's, "Okay, it was me, now what." The Duggar spawns have all the resources if they wanted to escape. The media, relatives, their jus from TLC that JimBob is having his pawns on. Any lawyer would be happy to take their case. No, I cannot find any excuse for them.

Not everyone has the guts to throw away everything in their life. But it doesn't take throwing all your family and friends to not punch your fucking newborn.

[Coconut Flan]

The thing is that not all fundamentalists hit infants. Some do, but not all. Not all people who place an infant on a blanket hit them if they try to move off it. I abhor the Pearls and anyone who mistreats children and I'm not defending people like that. I believe that they are not the majority of fundies though.

[ljohnson2006]

No one is blaming J'Chelle for spending all of her time with Josie. I am blaming her, for having 19 kids, and not even trying to form relationships with them after their infancy stage is complete. I think that Jordyn is going to have some major resentment towards J'Chelle later in life. How is she going to write that off? "Josie could've died, so she was more important than you?" Jordyn needed her mommy just as much as Josie did. J'Chelle pushed her to the side, like yesterday's news. As soon as the new baby is inside Mama's belly, the last one gets pushed aside. How sad. J'Chelle shouldn't have had 19 kids. She doesn't care about them like a mom should. It's a full time job. The J'Slaves know more about that than their own mother.

[feministing]

I am also of the camp that believes that the J'slaves are happy. They probably occasionally get pissed over some restriction or another but I don't think they feel they are missing out on much. They have a strong support system and I honestly believe there is tremendous comfort in living the life you feel God wants you to live (source: was raised fundie-lite). I think they feel they are doing the right thing deep down, so that whenever they are unhappy they chalk it up to their sinful human nature that they need to defeat. There is so much brainwashing involved that its hard to undo. Also I don't know of anyone who went on JTTH who left fundiedom, because its that intense. It leaves a mark on you that you can't erase. I've never been on one but its what I read). I think the Duggar parents are more conniving than we give them credit for and will stop at nothing to keep their kids in the fold, even if it means JTTH every year until they are forced into a strict fundie marriage. I think the kids are brainwashed enough to "know" it's "for the best".

The rigidity of strict fundyism soothes a lot of people, including my best friend who recently converted to Islam and went batshit fundie crazy. It's kind of how we feel at a pro-choice rally- a strong sense of indignation that we are doing what is right and fighting for the betterment of the world. These people think pleasing God makes everything better, and the placebo effect is strong. That is why I think they are happy. They simply don't have the critical thinking skills to question it at all. Indoctrination runs deep.

My family gave me way more freedom than them which is how I learned to make my own choices and think critically about everything, especially science and religion. Teh ebil public school definitely helped a bit. My parents got lazy after awhile and I've always been a strong-willed kid so they tired quickly and freedom increased. I still am forced to live with my parents, but I got a scholarship to do a rotation abroad so they couldn't do anything about it. (I'm sooooo freeeee!!!) I think their hope for my soul is dwindling ;P

Am I saying the Duggarlings won't leave? Nope. One or two might much later because spirituality is not for everyone, or the lifestyle might not be compatible with who they feel they are on a fundamental level - which is what happened with me (my money is on Josiah and/or Joy). But seriously, those of you who are speculating ad absurdum with tenuous evidence at best should think more carefully. I know it's wishful thinking - I wish they'd all leave because INDEPENDENCE IS AWESOME!!!! Freedom from religion is the best kind of freedom I've experienced. Like I have no one I'm obligated to submit to but myself. While there may be comfort in submission, I feel more comfort in my lack thereof. I hope that one day the duggars will learn this feeling. But realistically I just don't think that will happen on a large scale. The duggars are indoctrinating like crazy, I bet they even cherrypick fan letters that laud their life choices to affirm their way of life to their kids. The kids are thus honestly made to believe that the world thinks they're god's warriors, and that those that don't are just a crazy and possessed minority.

[snarkykitty]

Didn't see the other thread.

[nokidsmom]

I think some of us project onto them...personally, I would be miserable in that lifestyle as I like being independent and having a good deal of control in my life. They could very well be miserable having my type of life...they've never had to make difficult financial decisions, or trying to get ahead in the workplace etc. The only problem I have with their lifestyle is they aren't given the choice to not be a SAHD without some potentially ugly consequences, like losing their support network or financial security.

This. I know I have done this and it's pretty easy and understandable to look at someone else's situation and think "I could never live this life" be it with fundies or anyone for that matter. Perfectly normal and human, to be honest, so I am not handslapping anyone here. I have stopped myself at times, thinking that probably not everyone in this lifestyle is unhappy and maybe not all the bad things we associate with the lifestyle (blanket training, daddy in charge, courtship, SAHDs, etc) happen in all cases. And that fundies or fundie-like families fall in a spectrum, say the Maxwells vs. the Arndts. Even ones that have very similar fundie lifestyles such as the Duggars and the Bates have their differences.

And there are people in all walks of life who don't want to be independent; that want things done for them and delegate major life decisions to others. That life would drive me nuts though. But for some, it's fine.

[Slt]

The little kid in the red jacket looks like he just wandered off the set of Boardwalk Empire. And the woman in the background - wtf?

I know I'm being unfairly judgmental, but something about this kid and his family gives me the creeps. I reckon time will tell.

I can bet that this photo was a "photobooth" at a wedding and the lady in the background is another wedding guest. Regardless, hilarious!

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I can bet that this photo was a "photobooth" at a wedding and the lady in the background is another wedding guest. Regardless, hilarious!

Yep, a wedding!

[JenniferJuniper]

This. I know I have done this and it's pretty easy and understandable to look at someone else's situation and think "I could never live this life" be it with fundies or anyone for that matter. Perfectly normal and human, to be honest, so I am not handslapping anyone here. I have stopped myself at times, thinking that probably not everyone in this lifestyle is unhappy and maybe not all the bad things we associate with the lifestyle (blanket training, daddy in charge, courtship, SAHDs, etc) happen in all cases. And that fundies or fundie-like families fall in a spectrum, say the Maxwells vs. the Arndts. Even ones that have very similar fundie lifestyles such as the Duggars and the Bates have their differences.

And there are people in all walks of life who don't want to be independent; that want things done for them and delegate major life decisions to others. That life would drive me nuts though. But for some, it's fine.

It's fine for those who decide to live whatever fundie lifestyle they choose to lead. The problem, of course, is that their offspring are often manipulated/bullied/brainwashed/terrified into conforming. I don't believe for a moment that all of the adult Arndt sons deep down really want to be dependent on their parents for everything they have, everything they do and every life decision they make. And it's even more complicated in families with daughters, as females are raised to believe from birth they must always be subservient to men.

One can argue, well, we all raise our kids with our own values, and that's true. But if one of my kids turned fundie, I wouldn't shun or disown him. I'd find away to work with the situation. It happened to a very progressive friend of mine. Son met and married a fundie girl and has embraced the lifestyle. The hardest thing for my friend is seeing the restrictions put on her young granddaughters. Young granddaughters who want to dance and wear regular clothes and go trick or treating like the kids in their neighborhood. But my friend works with the situation, very subtly letting the girls know they'll have a choice someday and that she'll be there for them, without breaking any of her son's rules for them. He knows what she thinks of those rules, but she can't jeopardize her relationship with him or them.

So while there may be some projection going on, I think it's mostly empathy and sympathy for the young fundies - most of whom would probably never have chosen the lifestyle if they'd been allowed to think independently growing up.

[ljohnson2006]

The Duggars do not raise their own children. They make the older girls take on that role. I feel sorry for the people that have to grow up in this lifestyle, and think that they can do whatever their hearts desire. That's not the case. They're controlled by their parents, and then they get married, and control, or are controlled by in the case of women their spouses. No striving for independence around here.

[Chicken bones]

Back to Jessa...there's really no proof she is courting this young man. We've seen pics of the Duggar young women sidehuggimg male fans before. The girlfriend remark by his aunt could easily be her teasing him; for all we know he has a crush on Jessa and it's no secret or something. For all of the Duggars' talk about courtship, I bet JB and the rest would not allow one of the daughters to be referred to as a "girlfriend" (unless they use that term while in a courtship??). Also the tweet he made about burdens could be about anyone, it only mentions a "she." Sorry to be a voice of reason, I know it's not much fun.

Man, Ben is quite the conservative Southern boy, isn't he? On his twitter, it's all football'n'God.

[church_of_dog]

Something else about the Duggars: for quite a few years -- I suspect going back well before the TV shows started -- their identity has been "that family with so many children". I can't imagine that the older kids don't feel inhibited about acting on any independence they might actually hold, out of concern/pressure that they not ruin the family image, the family schtick, as it were. And especially now that their schtick is bringing in a nice income. For these reasons I have hope that Josh & Anna moving away might have started to break up that identity and bring them up to a more current family vision that includes the adult kids having lives of their own.

Also, re the photo of the Seewald family: I was kinda hoping the background woman was really a hologram/ghost, one of those little shoulder-advisers of the teen girl she appears next to. You know, "an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other", that help us navigate the decisions of our lives... :angelic-halofell:

[SamuraiKatz]

I can bet that this photo was a "photobooth" at a wedding and the lady in the background is another wedding guest. Regardless, hilarious!

I am going to say young Ben's family is a more recent covert to extreme fundi ism. Look at the age difference between the older kids and the little ones on mom and dad's lap. Ben is probably old enough to remember the before the crazy started. There is hope for escape from gothardism if Jessa sticks it out with this young man.

[JenniferJuniper]

Back to Jessa...there's really no proof she is courting this young man. We've seen pics of the Duggar young women sidehuggimg male fans before. The girlfriend remark by his aunt could easily be her teasing him; for all we know he has a crush on Jessa and it's no secret or something. For all of the Duggars' talk about courtship, I bet JB and the rest would not allow one of the daughters to be referred to as a "girlfriend" (unless they use that term while in a courtship??). Also the tweet he made about burdens could be about anyone, it only mentions a "she." Sorry to be a voice of reason, I know it's not much fun.

But how to explain Josh's comment? I just don't see him making a comment like that on the facebook page of some random guy just because he has a crush on his sister. These people take this shit too seriously for that, Josh included.

Proof and evidence are not the same thing. I'd say the evidence Jessa has some sort of relationship with this young man is fairly strong. Although I agree the "burden" comment is too non-specific to count as evidence.