Esther Shrader (Anna Duggar's sister) living in a pop up

[lilith]

A parent using a drug, in and of itself, does not harm their child.

It may lead to behavior that harms the child, and if that occurs the child should be protected in every way possible. But while drug use may raise the chances of a child being abused or neglected it does not cause it. Drug addicted parents should be held to exactly the same standard as any other parent.

[Koala]

:o

A parent using a drug, in and of itself, does not harm their child.

It may lead to behavior that harms the child, and if that occurs the child should be protected in every way possible. But while drug use may raise the chances of a child being abused or neglected it does not cause it. Drug addicted parents should be held to exactly the same standard as any other parent.

You know what, you have every right to that opinion. I completely disagree with you, but I can just agree to disagree.

[holothuroidea]

I am not discussing morality. I am discussing whether innocent children should be left to be raised by drug addicts.

Drug addict = unfit parent is a statement of morality, isn't it? It's a code imposed by society that labels a person's intention, decision or action as right or wrong for a given situation. So saying that drug addiction is an action that makes it wrong for that person to be a parent is imposing a morality judgment.

I think in many situations people who are drug addicts exhibit behaviors that directly negatively affect their children to the point of abuse and because drug addiction tends to be chronic, and the resultant abusive behaviors may be ongoing. This makes them an unfit parent, however, the reason those people are unfit parents is the behavior that affects the child, not the fact that they are drug addicts.

[Witsec5]

I too have a pedigree as the child of a drug addict. Actually he was the better parent than Mom who was just mean and unbalanced without using anything. My dad struggled with substance abuse just as other people struggle with food addiction and mental illness. I agree it's not the ideal for a kid to come home to parent who has passed out. Yet I do not see the alternative as foster care. You would not believe how many parents abuse prescription drugs. I think we are on the brink of finding a true cure for addiction, as in it will probably happen in our lifetime. When that happens, children and their parents will be a lot better off.

I hated that my dad got high every night and I remember feeling scared all of the time. Still I would rather have had him for a parent than Zsu or Michelle. My dad was unstable especially coming off of a high but he wasn't mean and he didn't blanket train sober as a judge like Michael and Debi Pearl.

[lilith]

:o

You know what, you have every right to that opinion. I completely disagree with you, but I can just agree to disagree.

As can I. I know it's not a popular opinion.

[roddma]

I would certainly not assume that someone fostering or adopting was "cleaning up the mess others have made of their reproductive lives" , more that they to love and care for a child, much like most women who get pregnant.

Yes, infertility is sad. There are a whole heap of other words that could describe it as well, but sad is one of them.

It is also sad and wrong that some infertile couples think that just because they are "worthy" of a child and can't conceive one that any woman who has children in a less than ideal situation is some sort of cosmic slap in the face to them.

Pregnancy is a biological function. That's all. Some people's bodies don't do it as easily as others. The crack whore down the street with 6 kids isn't the one stopping an infertile couple from conceiving.

Whoa Havent read all these comments but I just had to jump in here I am not infertile I am aware of but childless by chance. Why do others assume someone infertile is trying to create a 'Handmaid's Tale"? That is the last thing we want. There may be a few but there are also parents who feel entitled. We want others to take responsibility for their actions. If they can't take care of kids they should use birth control of fix themselves.

No one is under any obligation to adopt. Adoption is fine and noble but some of us would rather take a chance on our own fertility. It is a rather costly and tedious process that an take years. My mother use to work for DHS as a secretary though she still had the ins and outs of adoption. It should come from the heart and not pressure to be a do gooder.

[lilith]

Whoa Havent read all these comments but I just had to jump in here I am not infertile I am aware of but childless by chance. Why do others assume someone infertile is trying to create a 'Handmaid's Tale"? That is the last thing we want. There may be a few but there are also parents who feel entitled. We want others to take responsibility for their actions. If they can't take care of kids they should use birth control of fix themselves.

No one is under any obligation to adopt. Adoption is fine and noble but some of us would rather take a chance on our own fertility. It is a rather costly and tedious process that an take years. My mother use to work for DHS as a secretary though she still had the ins and outs of adoption. It should come from the heart and not pressure to be a do gooder.

I was not trying to "pressure" infertile couples to adopt or to imply that they had a moral obligation to. I realise that one of my sentences did have that tone, and I apologised for it further up the thread.

I do find it horrible that some of these women who say they are desperate for a child are so ready to dehumanise the children of drug addicts and prostitutes. I am very glad that they are not planning to foster or adopt one of these children, given their attitude.

Yes, people who can't or won't care for children should take steps to ensure that they don't have any. I am a staunch advocate of abortion rights, and I feel that the "right to life" crowd and their propaganda are doing untold damage by discouraging abortion. When working as a legal secretary I encountered a woman who kept having children that she was unable to care for who refused to consider abortion because she considered it murder. That is sad for everyone involved.

Once a child is born, however, it is a person with the same rights as any other. The circumstances of it's conception are not the childs fault, and some of the language used to refer to these kids on this thread has been shockingly cold.

[Maul the Koala]

:o

You know what, you have every right to that opinion. I completely disagree with you, but I can just agree to disagree.

I'll join you in that shock Koala.

[meda]

I was not trying to "pressure" infertile couples to adopt or to imply that they had a moral obligation to. I realise that one of my sentences did have that tone, and I apologised for it further up the thread.

I do find it horrible that some of these women who say they are desperate for a child are so ready to dehumanise the children of drug addicts and prostitutes. I am very glad that they are not planning to foster or adopt one of these children, given their attitude.

Yes, people who can't or won't care for children should take steps to ensure that they don't have any. I am a staunch advocate of abortion rights, and I feel that the "right to life" crowd and their propaganda are doing untold damage by discouraging abortion. When working as a legal secretary I encountered a woman who kept having children that she was unable to care for who refused to consider abortion because she considered it murder. That is sad for everyone involved.

Once a child is born, however, it is a person with the same rights as any other. The circumstances of it's conception are not the childs fault, and some of the language used to refer to these kids on this thread has been shockingly cold.

So the only thing you find horrible about child abuse and neglect on this thread is that someone "desperate for a child" uses "shockingly cold" language to point out that children who have been neglected and abused often have long term problems that require large amounts of societal resources to mitigate or fix? You will pearl clutch over language, but you think that people who continue to use and sell drugs while attempting to parent shouldn't be judged. That is precious. You have used harsher language in this thread to describe an infertile woman that you use to describe a woman who sold her children to men who sexually abused them.

Not that I think it will register for you on any level, because clearly my partner and I are just selfish yuppie assholes...but I'll share a bit of perspective from my partner who is a defense lawyer and does volunteer work acting as defense counsel or law guardian for kids. First the kid gets removed from the home because of abuse...abuse like not being fed or sent to schoolfor 4 or 5 days because mommy or daddy is on a bender and can't be bothered, or because mommy's boyfriend decides that he will impose some discipline on a child who stuck out her tongue by putting out a lighted cigarette on the child's tongue. Once these things happen, my partner, law enforcement, social workers, and other responsible adults go in and attempt to deal with the consequences of other people's shitty choices regarding their children. Those consequences start manifesting themselves quite soon, because often my partner will be assigned these children again when they start doing things like fondling their foster siblings, or killing small animals, or stomping a fellow student who is disrespecting them. Or maybe they're not hurting others, but just skipping school and doing drugs, or cutting themselves. Again, those children must be helped, both to protect them and the people around them. Partner has been doing this long enough that he is on his second generation; abused kids having children themselves and repeating the cycle.

The students I interact with as a volunteer self select, which means they can often function at a higher level than the kids partner works with. The stories of parental neglect my kids tell me is mind numbing. The level of entitlement and indifference towards their children that some of these parents exhibit is rage inducing. So again, humble apologies from this "desperate woman" for using words about abusive parents that are not PC enough for you. Because clearly that is the main cause of abuse.

[lilith]

So the only thing you find horrible about child abuse and neglect on this thread is that someone "desperate for a child" uses "shockingly cold" language to point out that children who have been neglected and abused often have long term problems that require large amounts of societal resources to mitigate or fix? You will pearl clutch over language, but you think that people who continue to use and sell drugs while attempting to parent shouldn't be judged. That is precious. You have used harsher language in this thread to describe an infertile woman that you use to describe a woman who sold her children to men who sexually abused them.

Not that I think it will register for you on any level, because clearly my partner and I are just selfish yuppie assholes...but I'll share a bit of perspective from my partner who is a defense lawyer and does volunteer work acting as defense counsel or law guardian for kids. First the kid gets removed from the home because of abuse...abuse like not being fed or sent to schoolfor 4 or 5 days because mommy or daddy is on a bender and can't be bothered, or because mommy's boyfriend decides that he will impose some discipline on a child who stuck out her tongue by putting out a lighted cigarette on the child's tongue. Once these things happen, my partner, law enforcement, social workers, and other responsible adults go in and attempt to deal with the consequences of other people's shitty choices regarding their children. Those consequences start manifesting themselves quite soon, because often my partner will be assigned these children again when they start doing things like fondling their foster siblings, or killing small animals, or stomping a fellow student who is disrespecting them. Or maybe they're not hurting others, but just skipping school and doing drugs, or cutting themselves. Again, those children must be helped, both to protect them and the people around them. Partner has been doing this long enough that he is on his second generation; abused kids having children themselves and repeating the cycle.

The students I interact with as a volunteer self select, which means they can often function at a higher level than the kids partner works with. The stories of parental neglect my kids tell me is mind numbing. The level of entitlement and indifference towards their children that some of these parents exhibit is rage inducing. So again, humble apologies from this "desperate woman" for using words about abusive parents that are not PC enough for you. Because clearly that is the main cause of abuse.

Hey, our backgrounds are surprisingly similar.

I am a legal secretary who worked mainly in a family law office before working with my first husband who was a criminal and family lawyer.

I have seen similar stories to those that you refer to, and yes, I have seen these issues span up to three generations. It is absolutely heartbreaking.

It is also heartbreaking to see good, caring parents who have substance abuse issues have to defend every other aspect of their life and parenting because some drug and alcohol abusers behave that way towards their children. It is horrible to see a single mother who is doing sex work to feed her children having to fight the preconception that she must be exposing her children to sexualised activity.

It is horrible to see kids stuck in the foster care system for years and years, jumping from placement to placement because they were exposed to drugs in the womb and no adoptive parent wants to deal with the potential issues that involves, cause they want a "perfect" baby.

I know some drug addicted parents do horrible horrible things to their children. I also know other parents do the same. I know of an accountant who was married to a lawyer, she turned a blind eye while he fucked both her daughters for years. I read the file while my ex husband looked for conflicts so he didn't have to represent the man. The oldest daughter was 19 before she reported it, although she had told people she didn't like being near her step father when she was a child, everyone had assumed everything was fine cause they were a prosperous, successful family. Even when she spoke out it was an uphill battle for her to get the authorities to believe her and help get her younger sister out, because government agencies are more cautious going up against families who have resources and knowledge and connections.

Tragedies happen in all sorts of families. All I'm saying is that a parent abusing drugs and/ or involved in the sex industry needs to be held to the same standard as any other parent, no more, no less. And that the children born of horrible situations deserve compassion and human dignity just as much as any other child in the world. And that even parents who fuck up really badly are human and deserve to be treated as such, not consigned to the rubbish heap.

All the reasons you list above for a child being removed from a home occur in homes where drug abuse is not an issue as well as homes where it is. The issue is child abuse and neglect, and we as a society need to do all we can to prevent it. That includes offering support to people who don't have the skills or stability to adequately parent without help.

My original point was that pregnancy is neither a reward or a punishment, and that the women who were saying it wasn't fair that they couldn't conceive when "drug addicts and prostitutes could" were being irrational and judgmental. I stand by that, and also the fact that prostitutes and substance abusers (and I include alcohol users in that category) are not necessarily incapable of good parenting.

ETA: I'm certainly not going to call you and your partner yuppies. If it was still the eighties and I was a wee bit younger I'm sure my partner and I would be classed as yuppies too. We are urban professionals in our thirties. I am in no way trying to be politically correct, I simply value human dignity and the concept that all people should be approached as individuals, not defined by any one aspect of their lives, be it race, gender, profession, sexuality, substance use, lifestyle or any other factor.

[meda]

I am not judging sex workers and addicts who abuse their children any more harshly than anyone else who abuses children. My point is that people who abuse their children, however that abuse manifests, is the reason there are children languishing in foster care. I don't agree with the notion that the primary reason such children are suffering is because vast numbers of infertile people are selfish and won't adopt them.

Also, this trope about infertile couples who only want a perfect baby keeps getting repeated as a a moral judgement. Maybe I am missing something, but when people conceive don't they usually want a perfect biological child? Do many women, upon learning of pregnancy, think "gee, I really hope my child is born with fetal alcohol syndrome, RAD, and extreem ADHD" I don't think there are. Again, why are infertile people judged for wanting the same thing that people who can have children want?

I am bowing out now, because I spend enough of my life being told by people with children of their own who would never adopt a special needs child why I should adopt one instead. I don't need to deal with it here.

Eta: so my partner and I aren't yuppies, just selfish assoles. Thanks for the clarification.

[lilith]

I am not judging sex workers and addicts who abuse their children any more harshly than anyone else who abuses children. My point is that people who abuse their children, however that abuse manifests, is the reason there are children languishing in foster care. I don't agree with the notion that the primary reason such children are suffering is because vast numbers of infertile people are selfish and won't adopt them.

Also, this trope about infertile couples who only want a perfect baby keeps getting repeated as a a moral judgement. Maybe I am missing something, but when people conceive don't they usually want a perfect biological child? Do many women, upon learning of pregnancy, think "gee, I really hope my child is born with fetal alcohol syndrome, RAD, and extreem ADHD" I don't think there are. Again, why are infertile people judged for wanting the same thing that people who can have children want?

I am bowing out now, because I spend enough of my life being told by people with children of their own who would never adopt a special needs child why I should adopt one instead. I don't need to deal with it here.

I am not and never have said that you or anyone should adopt. I asked if a woman who couldn't conceive had considered fostering her own cousins child, and was answered with bile about cleaning up other people's reproductive mess, and asked why someone should "settle" for a child whose father was unknown, who hadn't had prenatal care, who had been exposed to drugs in the womb. I find that an abhorrent way to refer to a child.

Of course people want perfection when they conceive a child. But most parents will tell you that they adore the children they bear who are less than perfect. It's just that biological parents don't get to rule out the children that they see as less than ideal like adoptive parents do. They just love the child they have.

[dawbs]

this right here:

It is horrible to see kids stuck in the foster care system for years and years, jumping from placement to placement because they were exposed to drugs in the womb and no adoptive parent wants to deal with the potential issues that involves, cause they want a "perfect" baby.

(I know, one small bit out of context, but I needed to trim the quote tree)

Is where you're pissing people off. Because you're saying 'quit stereotyping' out of one side of your mouth and you're stereotyping people who are IF/wish to adopt/whatever out of the other side--painting them as tiger parents who are looking for the '"perfect" baby'

That's bullshit and it's condemning the wrong people.

Know what? I looked into adoption/fostering...we were in the information gathering phase when life changed. Assuming my husband and I could have adopted (big assumption, we're not 'perfect' enough to get easy approval--we have every reason to think we'd not be approved), we weren't necessarily ready to deal w/ some problems. That's not a *bad* thing--knowing our own limitations. Looking at our family's racism (and, as much as we'd like to deny it, our own), looking at our time constraints, looking at our money constraints, etc--that wasn't a bad thing. We were looking at those things because we knew that once we had a child, be it through adoption or birth, that child was 'ours'--we were making a commitment that would last 3 lifetimes.

So hesitating before doing that...that doesn't mean one should be sterotyped as someone pedantically waiting for the 'perfect child'.

I also had an opportunity, a few years ago, to put my name forward as someone who would take custody of my cousin's kids when CPS took them. I didn't do it.

I wasn't waiting for my 'perfect baby'.

I wasn't even feeling especially ill-equipped to handle the problems (and they were myriad) that these particular kids had.

I was ill-equipped to handle the family strife, the excessive boundary setting, the adoption nightmare that would have been a kinship placement with this family. My husband wasn't sure he was ready for kids at all. I let that 'chance' pass by (and the kids are not exactly in the best of places)

And when I've talked to close friends w/ adoption experience, when I was exploring adoption, about that choice and how hard it was, instead of condemning the mother who was neglecting these children or the father who was abusing them, it fills me with rage that the, stupidly and illogically condemnation is heaped on me for "wanting a perfect baby".

[roddma]

I am in Australia where sex work is legal, so maybe I'm coming from a different place. But I knew women who did sex work in uni, one of whom still does, and she is a great mother who won't even have a picture of her daughter in her wallet in case a client accidentally saw it. The idea that she is less worthy of motherhood, simply because of her choice of industry (that provides for her daughter in a way I couldn't match), than any other woman, is foriegn and offensive to me.

It isn't legal in the U.S. and would get you in jail. No matter how desperate some of us are of money, we wouldn't resort to selling ourselves. No doing drugs or prostitution may not mean 'bad parent' because no one is perfect. We all have the capability of succumbing to questionable or bad behaviors. However, this doesn't make the behavior justifiable. The thing is most will not admit their mistakes or change themselves. This seems to be the case with Laura Elle's cousin. They may not harm the child physically but could cause severe emotional damage. Children deserve to be raised in steady environments and with some sense of morality.

[Witsec7]

I've been doing some 'research' on the Shraders. Apparently they have been living in that pop up camper since 2007. Yikes.

link broken

theshraders.com/

[Jessica]

Where are you reading tghat they've been in that since 2007? I thought this was their house: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hp ... 6409_n.jpg

[Witsec7]

Where are you reading tghat they've been in that since 2007? I thought this was their house: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hp ... 6409_n.jpg

At the broken link I posted above. Apparently he announced their moving on that older blog. The actual pastor of the church passed in 2008.

[nomi]

At the broken link I posted above. Apparently he announced their moving on that older blog. The actual pastor of the church passed in 2008.

There's nothing but a page talking about them moving and announcing the birth of their fourth kid. :think:

And what is it with fundies and annoying music on their blogs?

[NurseNell]

I've been doing some 'research' on the Shraders. Apparently they have been living in that pop up camper since 2007. Yikes.

link broken

theshraders.com/

Welcome to our Website! We are excited to announce our upcoming move to the Northwest, Washington State to be exact! The Lord has opened a door for us to go and work towards transitioning into the Senior pastorate at a precious church in Brewster, Washington. New Testament Baptist church is a precious group of people being led by Pastor Albert Fare. Pastor Fare is in his eighties, and is still married to his sweetheart of 64 years! He is a decorated WWII veteran, with two Purple Stars. We are excited about living on the beautiful Colombia River, in the foothills of the Cascade Mountain Range on the East side. Please pray for us as we plan, prepare, and pack. We are moving to Washington on the 12th of March, so there is much to do! Please pray for our safety as we travel roughly 2,500 miles with our four precious children. Lord willing we will be expanding our website to a full website in the near future so we can keep you updated on how the Lord is showing Himself strong in our lives. God bless and "May Jesus Christ Be Praised!"

Today's word is precious. pre·cious/ˈpreSHəs/

Adjective:

(of an object, substance, or resource) Of great value; not to be wasted or treated carelessly.

Noun:

Used as a term of address to a beloved person

And now they have been living in a precious pop-up trailer for 5 precious years.

[nomi]

Well, I don't recall the bible having a thesaurus, so what else is a man to do with his limited education? :lol:

[Witsec7]

There's nothing but a page talking about them moving and announcing the birth of their fourth kid. :think:

And what is it with fundies and annoying music on their blogs?

Correct, I was using it to date their move to the PNW, and to figure out how many blessings she squirted out while living in the popup.

[SisiL78]

I want to know what it is with fundies and matching mother/daughter clothing. Seriously, you're an adult you should not be wearing the same dress as a three year old. I think its cute for everyone to match, but at least wear big girl pants (or skirts)!

[samurai_sarah]

I want to know what it is with fundies and matching mother/daughter clothing. Seriously, you're an adult you should not be wearing the same dress as a three year old. I think its cute for everyone to match, but at least wear big girl pants (or skirts)!

Maybe it's part of their "one size fits all" philosophy? It's a half-baked theory, and I really haven't thought this through. So, FWIW, I just feel oddly reminded of uniforms looking at matching clothes. Uniforms tend to negate individuality, and individuality isn't something fundies want. Clothes probably play a big role in that. After all, they usually express something about ourselves, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Uniforms say something about a group, but not a person.

On the other hand, there is the fact that my mother once made me a frankly hideous dress, and a blouse for herself from the same fabric. It was an economic choice, and there is no pictorial evidence that we ever matched. So who knows, maybe it is just a case of getting cheap fabric by the bulk?

[SisiL78]

Maybe it's part of their "one size fits all" philosophy? It's a half-baked theory, and I really haven't thought this through. So, FWIW, I just feel oddly reminded of uniforms looking at matching clothes. Uniforms tend to negate individuality, and individuality isn't something fundies want. Clothes probably play a big role in that. After all, they usually express something about ourselves, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Uniforms say something about a group, but not a person.

On the other hand, there is the fact that my mother once made me a frankly hideous dress, and a blouse for herself from the same fabric. It was an economic choice, and there is no pictorial evidence that we ever matched. So who knows, maybe it is just a case of getting cheap fabric by the bulk?

After I posted I thought about it. I agree wtih your one size fits all idea... one dress for a female should be good enough for another female etc.... But, I also wonder if they encourage grown women to dress like little girls to infantalize the adult women. There's something really disturbing about it. Esther Shrader's dress is not quite the oversized peter pan collar number that Michelle Duggar used to sport, but the sparkly white fabric matching the child's reminds me somewhat of the matching mother daughter prairie dresses of the FLDS.

[samurai_sarah]

After I posted I thought about it. I agree wtih your one size fits all idea... one dress for a female should be good enough for another female etc.... But, I also wonder if they encourage grown women to dress like little girls to infantalize the adult women. There's something really disturbing about it. Esther Shrader's dress is not quite the oversized peter pan collar number that Michelle Duggar used to sport, but the sparkly white fabric matching the child's reminds me somewhat of the matching mother daughter prairie dresses of the FLDS.

Interesting thought. Sorry, I've had two glasses of chardonnay (it's late on this side of the pond), so I may have to think about that one in the morning, when I'm sober. But I do think you're on to something. And whichever way that goes, it's disturbing. It's disturbing to think of grown women robbed of their sexuality, while the flipside of that would be sexualising little girls. It reminds me of "Toddlers and Tiaras", but as I said, I'm posting under the influence. Food for thought tomorrow morning.

ETA because I do have a space button