Esther Shrader (Anna Duggar's sister) living in a pop up

[meda]

Who made that assumption and where?

Children are not problems. Their lives are not problems. They might have some problems, but are they really the kind of problems you could justify preventing?

Are you really suggesting that a child born with birth defects because of a parent's drug and alcohol abuse, or a child that is abused and neglected to the point where that child has long term psychological issues and cannot function well in society, is not a problem? I am not making a judgement about a child's right to exist or worth as a human being, but yes, they require more resources from teachers, foster parents, extended family, the court system, and whatever else is left of our crappy social safety net than a child who does not have those issues and is being raised by a responsible caregiver. That's a problem.

And the assumption was made by the poster who smugly pointed out that if you want a baby, there are blood relation children who need a home. Because after all , beggars can't be choosers. I am not insulted by anyone's fertility. I am insulted by the notion that my lack of fertility means that I am held to a higher standard of behavior than someone who can have children. You seem to be more offended by a poster expressing frustration over her sister's inability to have a child, and that sisters apparent unwillingness to foster children who probably have a host of issues that will require vast amounts of money and resources to fix, will than your are by the actions of the woman who had the children and who is responsible for their abuse.

[lilith]

Ok, I can see how my wording re: adopting or fostering the cousins child sounded patronizing. I apologise.

That said, I find the attitude towards children from troubled pasts as "problems" disturbing. They are people with problems, they are not inherently a problem. And it's this attitude that leaves kids languishing in foster care for years, cause they are seen as the problems left by drug addicts for society to deal with rather than independent little lives who deserve respect and opportunity every bit as much as the very wanted $50 000 IVF baby. It's not their fault that their mother couldn't provide it.

[BravaAmica]

Ok rather than quoting I am going to just write one post. Quotes are hard on iPads.

First, why is a prostitute automatically an unfit mother? Would you extend that to all sex workers? Porn stars? Nude models?

My cousin is the only prostitute I know. And she sold her children to her johns for drug money. So hell yes she's automatically unfit to be a parent because she's a drug addicted prostitute. Why do you not get that?! Maybe if I knew a few sex workers who did not farm their kids out for drug money I'd feel differently. Excuse the fuck out of me for not knowing any more sex workers.

My cousin will never get clean. She will keep whoring and using until she dies. I would not care if she died in her own shit right now. She deserves it after what she did to her children and the rest of her family.

And to your point about fertility, yes, I agree. Yes, I do feel that my cousin's fertility is an insult to my sister. I realize now that's what I was doing. Thank you for pointing that out. I did not realize that's what I was doing.

[lilith]

My cousin is the only prostitute I know. And she sold her children to her johns for drug money. So hell yes she's automatically unfit to be a parent because she's a drug addicted prostitute. Why do you not get that?! Maybe if I knew a few sex workers who did not farm their kids out for drug money I'd feel differently. Excuse the fuck out of me for not knowing any more sex workers.

My cousin will never get clean. She will keep whoring and using until she dies. I would not care if she died in her own shit right now. She deserves it after what she did to her children and the rest of her family.

And to your point about fertility, yes, I agree. Yes, I do feel that my cousin's fertility is an insult to my sister. I realize now that's what I was doing. Thank you for pointing that out. I did not realize that's what I was doing.

The great majority of sex workers are not drug addicts or negligent parents. They just don't make headlines cause they aren't doing anything wrong.

I am in Australia where sex work is legal, so maybe I'm coming from a different place. But I knew women who did sex work in uni, one of whom still does, and she is a great mother who won't even have a picture of her daughter in her wallet in case a client accidentally saw it. The idea that she is less worthy of motherhood, simply because of her choice of industry (that provides for her daughter in a way I couldn't match), than any other woman, isforiegn and offensive to me.

You are judging two large groups of mothers (sexmworkers and substance abusers) on the basis of one very troubled woman.

And that woman is a human being too. I understand your anger towards her, especially on her children's behalf, but she didn't become that way in a vacuum. I am assumingnfrom your posts and the fact that your aunt gained custody of the kids that she came from a relatively functional family. Something has happened to make her this way. Yes, she should be held accountable for damage to her children, but she is still a human being deserving of dignity. Even if she was jailed for allowing her children to be abused she would be given a level of dignity and humanity, not left to "die in her own shit". Where there is life there is hope. If everyone around her has totally written her off then she will probably never access the help she obviously so desperately needs.

[MarciaBrady]

Ok, I can see how my wording re: adopting or fostering the cousins child sounded patronizing. I apologise.

That said, I find the attitude towards children from troubled pasts as "problems" disturbing. They are people with problems, they are not inherently a problem. And it's this attitude that leaves kids languishing in foster care for years, cause they are seen as the problems left by drug addicts for society to deal with rather than independent little lives who deserve respect and opportunity every bit as much as the very wanted $50 000 IVF baby. It's not their fault that their mother couldn't provide it.

It's possible to believe children in foster care deserve respect and an opportunity at a good life and still not feel equipped to be the one to offer that to a child. Not everyone is cut out to deal with the major problems those children have, and if you're not cut out for that then you could end up doing more harm than good to that child. That's where I'm at when it comes to exploring adoption. I'm considering all the angles - do I have what it takes to adopt a child with medical issues? Emotional issues? Developemental delays? Or a mixture of all three? And I honestly don't know the answer to that right now. I used to nanny for children with major medical problems and I think I'm good at dealing with those issues. But I'm still not convinced I would do a good job with the other possible issues. And not every person is going to be good at dealing with all of those issues. I know a lot of people believe that all it takes is love and a stable home (I'm not saying you're one of those people, just that it's a common attitude) but I think they're being naive. It takes a lot more than that. And not everyone has what it takes.

I think there is a lot of judgment aimed towards infertile people who don't want to adopt. I think they are often labeled as selfish, when no one really knows why that person doesn't want to adopt. Maybe they don't feel like they would be a good parent to a child who has medical or emotional problems. Maybe they aren't done working through their grief about not being able to have a biological child and they still need some time. Or maybe they just flat out don't want to adopt no matter what the circumstance, and that's okay too. My point is that not everyone can or should adopt.

[MarciaBrady]

The great majority of sex workers are not drug addicts or negligent parents. They just don't make headlines cause they aren't doing anything wrong.

I am in Australia where sex work is legal, so maybe I'm coming from a different place. But I knew women who did sex work in uni, one of whom still does, and she is a great mother who won't even have a picture of her daughter in her wallet in case a client accidentally saw it. The idea that she is less worthy of motherhood, simply because of her choice of industry (that provides for her daughter in a way I couldn't match), than any other woman, isforiegn and offensive to me.

You are judging two large groups of mothers (sexmworkers and substance abusers) on the basis of one very troubled woman.

No, she's actually not doing that. She made it clear in this post that she's talking about one specific person who just happens to fall into those 2 categories. You're assuming that she's making judgments about entire groups of people based on the story she related about one person. But it's simply that, you're assumption.

[bananacat]

Why should my sister be so delighted with adopting a drug addicted, maybe HIV+ baby from a pregnancy that had no prenatal care and an unknown father? [We don't know my cousin's HIV status, sometimes she says she's +, other times, says she's negative] I have volunteered to be her surrogate if she wants me to be, though.

My cousin doesn't keep in touch and we usually find out that she's had another baby after the fact. Like after it's been adopted. She lost custody of her first five kids through abuse, neglect and allowing her johns to sexually molest the kids if the price was right. The two older ones are over 18. My aunt [cousin's mom, obviously] adopted the other three.

The last baby she had [her sixth], the social worker was in the delivery room and took the baby away immediately. My cousin didn't even see it. She signed the adoption papers before she left the hospital and was back using and prostituting a few days later.

I know people get clean after being drug addicted. But what's she done is so far beyond the pale, so evil that there is no hope for her. She ruined five gorgeous, funny smart kids for drug money. I hope she rots.

The way you say this, it sounds like your sister only wants a perfect healthy baby. What if she had a child biologically that had health problems? Would you be mad that someone would suggest she raise it anyway? No kid is ruined. I understand it's difficult to adopt a child with special needs and I'm not saying your sister is obligated to do it, but you shouldn't sound like it's such a horrible suggestion to have a less than perfect child. And frankly, it's just plain mean to call any child ruined. I hope they find a good foster family that doesn't view them the way you do, and sees them for the valuable people that they are in spite of their HIV status and drug addiction. What do you expect to happen to them? Should they just be tossed in the garbage because they can't fulfill someone's dream of having the "right" type of child?

[holothuroidea]

Are you really suggesting that a child born with birth defects because of a parent's drug and alcohol abuse, or a child that is abused and neglected to the point where that child has long term psychological issues and cannot function well in society, is not a problem? I am not making a judgement about a child's right to exist or worth as a human being, but yes, they require more resources from teachers, foster parents, extended family, the court system, and whatever else is left of our crappy social safety net than a child who does not have those issues and is being raised by a responsible caregiver. That's a problem.

Yes. I am really suggesting that. People ARE NOT problems. People might have problems, but they are not the problem.

You are making a judgement about a person's right to exist based on their birth status. You are saying that children who are born to negligent parents are a drain on the system and are therefor a problem, while children born to responsible parents are not. Telling people that they are problems and a drain on resources is a judgment on the legitimacy of their existence. This is the kind of stigma that stops people in situations like the Shraders from accepting help.

And the assumption was made by the poster who smugly pointed out that if you want a baby, there are blood relation children who need a home. Because after all , beggars can't be choosers.

You may have inferred that assumption, but I didn't see it. She has said herself that that is not what she meant.

I am not insulted by anyone's fertility. I am insulted by the notion that my lack of fertility means that I am held to a higher standard of behavior than someone who can have children.

That would be quite insulting if anyone actually said it.

You seem to be more offended by a poster expressing frustration over her sister's inability to have a child, and that sisters apparent unwillingness to foster children who probably have a host of issues that will require vast amounts of money and resources to fix, will than your are by the actions of the woman who had the children and who is responsible for their abuse.

I am offended by your statement that children in unfortunate circumstances are problems and drains on resources. The only thing I said about infertility is that "Nature is completely indifferent to human morality." I quoted _lilith for truth because I agreed with what she said about firtility not being at all related to morality, and that it is not helpful to make judgments about who should and should not be a parent based on morality.

I am absolutely not offended that people would or wouldn't want to adopt or foster any child. Not everyone has the emotional, monetary or temporal wherewithal to help a child who has more needs, there is no shame in that.

[lilith]

No, she's actually not doing that. She made it clear in this post that she's talking about one specific person who just happens to fall into those 2 categories. You're assuming that she's making judgments about entire groups of people based on the story she related about one person. But it's simply that, you're assumption.

No, I'm not. There are many sweeping statements further up the page that I can't clip and quote on my iPad.

[bananacat]

And one of my biggest pet peeves is people acting like it's wrong for a person with fertility problems to want a biological child or to want to experience pregnancy. Maybe she wants to have a biological child and wants to continue pursuing fertility treatments. There's nothing wrong with having that desire and pursuing it.

One of my biggest peeves is people feeling entitled to having children, or having children the "right" way. Children don't exist as accessories for adults. Children are people too and it's wrong to have one just for the experience. Every person should think more about what they can offer a child and less about what a child can offer them before deciding whether to have a child. And it's ok to want things, but it's wrong to have a child a certain way just to get the experience of childbirth, no matter how badly the woman wants it.

[lilith]

The way you say this, it sounds like your sister only wants a perfect healthy baby. What if she had a child biologically that had health problems? Would you be mad that someone would suggest she raise it anyway? No kid is ruined. I understand it's difficult to adopt a child with special needs and I'm not saying your sister is obligated to do it, but you shouldn't sound like it's such a horrible suggestion to have a less than perfect child. And frankly, it's just plain mean to call any child ruined. I hope they find a good foster family that doesn't view them the way you do, and sees them for the valuable people that they are in spite of their HIV status and drug addiction. What do you expect to happen to them? Should they just be tossed in the garbage because they can't fulfill someone's dream of having the "right" type of child?

That's exactly what I was about to say Banana Cat. There is no guarantee that even if you do all the right things a pregnancy is going to end in a healthy baby and healthy mummy. Every pregnancy is a toss of the dice, and while some things like maternal drug use and HIV status make for worse odds of a healthy bub there is no fail safe way to ensure a "perfect" child.

[MarciaBrady]

One of my biggest peeves is people feeling entitled to having children, or having children the "right" way. Children don't exist as accessories for adults. Children are people too and it's wrong to have one just for the experience. Every person should think more about what they can offer a child and less about what a child can offer them before deciding whether to have a child. And it's ok to want things, but it's wrong to have a child a certain way just to get the experience of childbirth, no matter how badly the woman wants it.

There was no point in my post when I said or even implied that a person was entitled to a child or entitled to have a child a certain way. You are reading things into my comment that simply aren't there. What I did say was a person has a right to want to have a biological child and to want to experience pregnancy and to continue to pursue that goal if that's what they want. I never said they were owed a child or deserved a child. I just said that they have a right to want that and pursue it, and it's nauseating to hear people say "they should adopt instead" because it's really no one's business how they form their family. If they don't want to adopt, that's okay.

And I also never said or implied that it was okay to have a child simply to experience childbirth. Obviously a person needs to want a child first, and to value the experience of raising that child that comes after pregnancy is over. But there's nothing wrong with wanting that to happen a certain way. And there's nothing wrong with pursuing that. And it's no one's fucking business if they want to keep doing fertility treatments rather than going the adoption route.

[meda]

So just to be clear....I should not judge the choices of the Shraders, who keep having children they cannot support, live Ina pop up trailer with no plumbing with said children, and refuse to look for work or accept public assistance because they are so much more Godly and special than the rest of society. I should not judge the choices of a woman who sold her children for drug money. Absolutely no judging of such people. Such people are just poor fluffy bunnies of victimhood.

And because I point out that the aforementioned fluffy bunnies of victim hood have brought many children into the world whom they cannot be around without causing those children serious harm, and who require vast inputs of time, money and other scarce societal resources, I am the person who is causing children to languish in foster care. Gotcha.

[Koala]

I maintain that drug addiction alone is not automatically a sign of an unfit parent.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think it's pretty safe to say a drug addict doesn't make for a fit parent. If you're using a mind altering substance you don't deserve to have a child at your mercy.

~Says the woman who had an alcoholic turned meth addict for a father

[holothuroidea]

So just to be clear....I should not judge the choices of the Shraders, who keep having children they cannot support, live Ina pop up trailer with no plumbing with said children, and refuse to look for work or accept public assistance because they are so much more Godly and special than the rest of society. I should not judge the choices of a woman who sold her children for drug money. Absolutely no judging of such people. Such people are just poor fluffy bunnies of victimhood.

And because I point out that the aforementioned fluffy bunnies of victim hood have brought many children into the world whom they cannot be around without causing those children serious harm, and who require vast inputs of time, money and other scarce societal resources, I am the person who is causing children to languish in foster care. Gotcha.

I'm not telling you whether or not you should judge people, I'm just telling you how I feel about it.

Nobody here ever said you are responsible for these children, but I have no idea why you insist on placing the responsibility on the shoulders of people who have clearly demonstrated they are not capable of handling it.

[holothuroidea]

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think it's pretty safe to say a drug addict doesn't make for a fit parent. If you're using a mind altering substance you don't deserve to have a child at your mercy.

~Says the woman who had an alcoholic turned meth addict for a father

Well, if we're going to throw around credentials ( ;) ) my father was not only a meth/speed addict but also a dealer, and my mother is an alcoholic. I still don't think its a good idea to make judgments about whether or not people are fit parents based on the immorality/morality of drug use or anything else. We should make determinations based on their actions towards their children, not based on their perceived character.

[lilith]

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think it's pretty safe to say a drug addict doesn't make for a fit parent. If you're using a mind altering substance you don't deserve to have a child at your mercy.

~Says the woman who had an alcoholic turned meth addict for a father

I grew up with a father addicted to pot. It's a mind altering substance that he used every day, but he still took care of all my needs and is still a supportive loving father.

People are addicted to pain meds and sedatives. Their actual effect is the same as that of heroin bought on the street, but people aren't proposing that people hooked on prescription meds are automatically unfit parents.

I'm not saying all drug addict are fit parents. Many very obviously are not. But drug abuse alone shouldn't be ground for deciding if someone is a capable parent.

There are drug addicts who hold down good, professional jobs. There are drug addicts who are great parents. We only ever hear about the tragedies, because someone doing well in their life is not going to advertise their addiction.

[meda]

I'm not telling you whether or not you should judge people, I'm just telling you how I feel about it.

Nobody here ever said you are responsible for these children, but I have no idea why you insist on placing the responsibility on the shoulders of people who have clearly demonstrated they are not capable of handling it.

Possibly because they are the parents? Because we live in a society that does place primary responsibility for the welfare or children on said parents? And because you and other posters have no problem telling infertile people what their responsibilities should be to other peoples children. You have children of your own, good for you. As one of a group of posters who seem to enjoy telling infertile people how they should behave, you certainly seem to believe that the fact that you have given birth and are a parent gives you a moral platform upon which you can tell others what to think.

[Koala]

Well, if we're going to throw around credentials ( ;) ) my father was not only a meth/speed addict but also a dealer, and my mother is an alcoholic. I still don't think its a good idea to make judgments about whether or not people are fit parents based on the immorality/morality of drug use or anything else. We should make determinations based on their actions towards their children, not based on their perceived character.

I have no problems making such a judgement. For me it has nothing to do with the immorality/morality of drug use. It has to do with the unpredictability of people consuming mind altering substances. If you're hopped up on meth you are no longer in control of your behavior and an innocent child shouldn't be left in your care until you fuck up and do something stupid.

[lilith]

Possibly because they are the parents? Because we live in a society that does place primary responsibility for the welfare or children on said parents? And because you and other posters have no problem telling infertile people what their responsibilities should be to other peoples children. You have children of your own, good for you. As one of a group of posters who seem to enjoy telling infertile people how they should behave, you certainly seem to believe that the fact that you have given birth and are a parent gives you a moral platform upon which you can tell others what to think.

No one here has said that their opinion carries any sort of weight because they are mothers.

Society in general has a responsibility towards children especially when their parents have proven to be incapable. That is part of why I believe that a judgement of incapacity to parent should be based on more than simply substance abuse or sex work.

[lilith]

I have no problems making such a judgement. For me it has nothing to do with the immorality/morality of drug use. It has to do with the unpredictability of people consuming mind altering substances. If you're hopped up on meth you are no longer in control of your behavior and an innocent child shouldn't be left in your care until you fuck up and do something stupid.

Would you propose that the children of parents who drink in the home should be removed? There are far more violent incidents due to drinking than amphetamines.

[Koala]

Would you propose that the children of parents who drink in the home should be removed? There are far more violent incidents due to drinking than amphetamines.

I proposed that drug addicts are unfit parents and that's all I proposed.

I will say this though, I don't think alcoholics make fit parents either.

[holothuroidea]

Possibly because they are the parents? Because we live in a society that does place primary responsibility for the welfare or children on said parents?

Responsibility for children shouldn't be put on people who can't handle it just because they are the biological parents any more than they should be placed on infertile people just because they want children and don't have any.

And because you and other posters have no problem telling infertile people what their responsibilities should be to other peoples children.

Please for the love of all that is good, quote where I did this.

You have children of your own, good for you. As one of a group of posters who seem to enjoy telling infertile people how they should behave, you certainly seem to believe that the fact that you have given birth and are a parent gives you a moral platform upon which you can tell others what to think.

I never told you how you should behave, and I do not believe that I have a moral platform. I only believe that I have an opinion based on my understanding that children are people and deserve to be treated with respect and compassion, and not be labeled as "problems" or burdens because of the situation of their birth.

[holothuroidea]

I proposed that drug addicts are unfit parents and that's all I proposed.

I will say this though, I don't think alcoholics make fit parents either.

I do see where you are coming from, but I also see the snowballing effect of what could happen if we decided that society was able to remove children from their parents based solely on morality. I still think that it should be based on behavior and not on character.

If you are saying that drug addiction is a behavior that makes a parent unfit, I would say that this is too broad of a statement but agree with you in sentiment.

[Koala]

I do see where you are coming from, but I also see the snowballing effect of what could happen if we decided that society was able to remove children from their parents based solely on morality. I still think that it should be based on behavior and not on character.

If you are saying that drug addiction is a behavior that makes a parent unfit, I would say that this is too broad of a statement but agree with you in sentiment.

I am not discussing morality. I am discussing whether innocent children should be left to be raised by drug addicts.