October Baby

[emmiedahl]

FG - I am not even sure what your question argument is. I have tried to the best of my ability to explain why I think women are responsible to care for the child growing inside of them , but to me that does not translate into "Here is why people as a whole should have to give up their organs to take care of other people." I am sorry if I am being obtuse, that is not my intention. But, I really don't see the point in continuing this dialogue.

Here is why it translates: you said that human beings should give up bodily autonomy when another person is solely dependent on them for their life. And there are people out there dying for lack of your organs. It is no different.

[Didi]

emmiedahl - i am illogical, what can i say? ;) I would not take what I said to the same conclusion, but I see what you mean. I guess I need to fine-tune how I give my opinions and views. I am very bad at explaining my views to others, and I am realizing that some of that is because a lot of my views and beliefs cannot be assessed and explained perfectly. They are heart beliefs which sometimes does not translate to head explanations very well.

[Witsec1]

emmiedahl - i am illogical, what can i say? ;) I would not take what I said to the same conclusion, but I see what you mean. I guess I need to fine-tune how I give my opinions and views. I am very bad at explaining my views to others, and I am realizing that some of that is because a lot of my views and beliefs cannot be assessed and explained perfectly. They are heart beliefs which sometimes does not translate to head explanations very well.

Yet you still use them to justify changing the laws to force childbirth on women - though you favor gradual change.

[Witsec1]

BTW - what your grandparents did to your mother - threatening her in order to force her to have an abortion. It was not OK. It is just as bad as you wanting to change the laws to force women to continue pregnancy.

[atheistjd]

emmiedahl - i am illogical, what can i say? ;) I would not take what I said to the same conclusion, but I see what you mean. I guess I need to fine-tune how I give my opinions and views. I am very bad at explaining my views to others, and I am realizing that some of that is because a lot of my views and beliefs cannot be assessed and explained perfectly. They are heart beliefs which sometimes does not translate to head explanations very well.

How do you go through life without questioning your "heart beliefs," as you call them? I am not trying to me "mean" but really - you believe in something so forcefully that you would be (potentially) unwilling to give your daughter the morning-after pill were she to be raped but you have not taken the time to think through or assess those beliefs?

I want to be clear, I am not great at articulating my own "beliefs" (I hate that word, and thus don't have many - although opinions, educated or not, I have plenty of ;) ), but I would NEVER attempt to influence another person's behaviour, never mind try to imprison them or force LIFELONG consequences on them, based on them. Heck, even those I have assessed are things that, for the most part, I would not impose on others because the science is inexact, inconclusive, or just not there (for example, breastfeeding - based on my somewhat limited research it is preferable, but at the same time, there is plenty of pro-formula research out there, the most important being the case study that is my husband, who was bottle-all-way and I think he turned out OK ;), so I would NEVER advocate for mandatory breastfeeding or some such nonsense).

I guess my point is you can be ignorant or choose not think every little thing through, but then PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD share your "beliefs" as just that and do not enforce those uneducated, ill-thought-through "heart beliefs" on others, including and especially your children or everyone with a uterus.

Whoa... rant much? Sorry :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

I know what, I am seriously sick of you people claiming "troll" when someone disagrees with you.

I was not trying to set anyone straight - I DONT LIKE DEBATING ON HERE!! I was asked questions. I tried to answer them as honestly as possible. I am not trying to set you straight. I have an opinion. you have an opinion. Yay! Go us! I am not trying to change anyone's mind. It started out because I said "I want to see that movie - here is why I actually agree with the pro-life message" I don't really give a flying fuck if you agree with me. If you do - awesome! If you don't - great! That's why I love coming to FreeJinger because there ARE so many different opinions and thoughts. But, I don't think it's fair that when someone doesn't agree with something "non-fundy" that they are lambasted.

I am not asking for kid gloves, I am asking you to act like a grown-up in a grown up intellectual discussion. I am sorry if it came across like I was asking for special treatment. I just want to be treated like a person, with respect.

Sorry to arrive late to the party. I have a broader question: are you the same person who posted as DidiKepel at the old board? Because if you are then this doesn't seem to be the first time you have jumped into a hot debate and then cried that it was unfair when people challenged you?

Here is an example from a debate about attitudes towards homosexuality:

DidiKeppel

i wanted to note, i am reading y'all's replies - i just can't add anything because if i do there is no way for me to say it without getting jumped on or being offensive. :-p

i think it is possible to show complete love while telling someone they are wrong or sinning, but i totally understand your point that it would seem demeaning to a child/person to be told an inherent part of them was "wrong".

I still don't think it is right to say "We don't want you to be foster parents because you believe homosexuality is wrong" , but I see *why* some of you think that is the right thing to do.

Given that you are not new to FJ, I think it is reasonable to assume that you were up for a debate when you started this discussion.... so why not answer the questions you are asked?

[emmiedahl]

She is speaking from her heart... like Colbert's #inmyheart.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colber ... 12---pt--3 The part I refer to starts around 2:45.

[formergothardite]

emmiedahl - i am illogical, what can i say? ;) I would not take what I said to the same conclusion, but I see what you mean. I guess I need to fine-tune how I give my opinions and views. I am very bad at explaining my views to others, and I am realizing that some of that is because a lot of my views and beliefs cannot be assessed and explained perfectly. They are heart beliefs which sometimes does not translate to head explanations very well.

If your beliefs are so illogical, then why should they be used as law. A lot of people have heart beliefs, it doesn't mean that those beliefs should be forced on all people like you are saying you want to do.

If a woman should be forced to risk her life and her body for a pregnancy she doesn't want because a fetus depends on her for life, why shouldn't other people be forced to risk their lives and the health of their bodies if they can give life to others? Why don't you take it to the same conclusion? Why is a fetus' life more important than a 25 year old's?

[atheistjd]

She is speaking from her heart... like Colbert's #inmyheart.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colber ... 12---pt--3 The part I refer to starts around 2:45.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[BelieveinScience]

I have tried to answer every question shot at me. Many of them are repeats, so I don't feel the need to say the same thing over and over.

I believe a baby is a human life - even inside the womb. So therefore I believe it is wrong for everyone - not just for me - to kill it. But, I can only say "Here is what I believe." - I cannot force anyone else to take my beliefs and in this conversation there has not been a single time when I have tried to. I did not state I think you guys are unaware of the biological dna of embryos being human. I do not expect to "convert" anyone. I am not trying to.

FG - I am not even sure what your question argument is. I have tried to the best of my ability to explain why I think women are responsible to care for the child growing inside of them , but to me that does not translate into "Here is why people as a whole should have to give up their organs to take care of other people." I am sorry if I am being obtuse, that is not my intention. But, I really don't see the point in continuing this dialogue.

Right now, the reason I keep returning is because I do not want to be accused of "flouncing" just because the topic is hard. But, I really don't see how it is flouncing when I never set out to change anyone's minds, opinions, or beliefs. If you were a bunch of hyper fundies and we were debating another topic where I take the more "liberal" view - my "style" wouldn't change. I would still state my opinions and why I believe them - I would still engage with people and try to be respectful, but at the end of the day I would still have my thoughts and you would have your's.

You have made me rethink my supposition that raped women are less likely to get pregnant on ovulation day. I had always wondered why the biology would not work in the case of rape, and I see now I should have done my own research before now and not trusted others to research for me. :) I have researched on other things related to the pro-life/pro-choice conversation, but never specifically pregnancy related to rape.

I still don't see a response to my question. What defines a healthy pregnancy? Is it a healthy baby? Healthy mom? You said healthy pregnancies should never be aborted so I want to know what you mean by healthy pregnancy.

[jayes1217]

I have a honest question:

I wouldn't counsel a friend to get an abortion and would never get one for myself. It would be hard to give consent to my daughter to do something that goes against my personal beliefs BUT I am completely supportive of keeping abortions legal and accessible to those who want them. I would like to see unplanned pregnancies decreased with the increase in safe sex education and easy access to birth control. Also the propaganda of "pro-life" makes me roll my eyes. I went to school with the Erwin brothers and know their parents and EVERYONE on my Facebook is singing the "film"'s praises. I'm keeping my opinions to myself because I don't want them to label me a "BABY-KILLER" ("pro-life" attacks)

What am I considered? I have always thought I was pro-life because I would never get an abortion myself and I do want to see a decrease in the procedure. However, reading this forum has made me think that maybe I am really pro-choice in my political views but pro-life in my personal views.

Oh and I completely support abortion in the case of rapes, incest and if the mother's physical life will be harmed in anyway.

Can I just tell people if they ask that I am a pro-life pro-choicer? I just don't want to be offensive to either side or attach a label to myself that either side will automatically draw unfair opinions from. Any help?

[Witsec7]

I have a honest question:

I wouldn't counsel a friend to get an abortion and would never get one for myself. It would be hard to give consent to my daughter to do something that goes against my personal beliefs BUT I am completely supportive of keeping abortions legal and accessible to those who want them. I would like to see unplanned pregnancies decreased with the increase in safe sex education and easy access to birth control. Also the propaganda of "pro-life" makes me roll my eyes. I went to school with the Erwin brothers and know their parents and EVERYONE on my Facebook is singing the "film"'s praises. I'm keeping my opinions to myself because I don't want them to label me a "BABY-KILLER" ("pro-life" attacks)

What am I considered? I have always thought I was pro-life because I would never get an abortion myself and I do want to see a decrease in the procedure. However, reading this forum has made me think that maybe I am really pro-choice in my political views but pro-life in my personal views.

Oh and I completely support abortion in the case of rapes, incest and if the mother's physical life will be harmed in anyway.

Can I just tell people if they ask that I am a pro-life pro-choicer? I just don't want to be offensive to either side or attach a label to myself that either side will automatically draw unfair opinions from. Any help?

What wrong with outing yourself about being prochoice? You would have to defend your position either way.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a honest question:

I wouldn't counsel a friend to get an abortion and would never get one for myself. It would be hard to give consent to my daughter to do something that goes against my personal beliefs BUT I am completely supportive of keeping abortions legal and accessible to those who want them. I would like to see unplanned pregnancies decreased with the increase in safe sex education and easy access to birth control. Also the propaganda of "pro-life" makes me roll my eyes. I went to school with the Erwin brothers and know their parents and EVERYONE on my Facebook is singing the "film"'s praises. I'm keeping my opinions to myself because I don't want them to label me a "BABY-KILLER" ("pro-life" attacks)

What am I considered? I have always thought I was pro-life because I would never get an abortion myself and I do want to see a decrease in the procedure. However, reading this forum has made me think that maybe I am really pro-choice in my political views but pro-life in my personal views.

Oh and I completely support abortion in the case of rapes, incest and if the mother's physical life will be harmed in anyway.

Can I just tell people if they ask that I am a pro-life pro-choicer? I just don't want to be offensive to either side or attach a label to myself that either side will automatically draw unfair opinions from. Any help?

You can tell people whatever you want. They will judge you by your behaviour and the reasons you share for whatever labels you put on yourself. My advice would be to simply give plenty of thought to what you believe and plenty of consideration to why others believe what they believe, and then engage honestly with people. They will think what they will, you can only control your own behaviour and thoughts.

[Minerva]

If my daughter wanted an abortion I would not give my consent. But, if she did it anyways she would not receive attacks from me - I would just be hurting so much for her. But, no I would not reccomend or give consent for an abortion. I do not believe I have to give consent though. (legally)

Because I'm curious - what if you lived in a state where there are parental consent laws? Would you sign the form?

[dramallama]

The pill did help a lot in my teen years, but it totally affected my sex drive post marriage. (it might have premaritally, but I didn't know :)) Now that we are trying to get pregnant I cannot imagine going on again, but I would if needed. :)

I feel like there is a lot of misconceptions about the pill on both sides of the coin, but I do not believe that most versions of it cause miscarriages anymore. :) I don't believe it anymore.

Then why are you iffy on the morning-after pill? Are you not aware that the morning-after pill is quite literally nothing other than a high dose of normal, everyday birth control pills designed to delay or halt ovulation?

Edit: Also, re: the organ/tissue donation analogy you seem to not understand - let's say that there's someone out there who needs a bone marrow transplant, and I am the only person who is an acceptable match. Bone marrow donation is much, much less dangerous than even a normal pregnancy and birth, but the government is not going to force me to donate to this person even if I am the only person capable of saving his or her life. They won't require that I give my bone marrow, let alone a kidney or a lobe of a liver or a lung, even though the risks of those donations probably more closely approximate the risks of pregnancy. Even if that person who needs the donation is my child, or sibling, or parent; even if I caused them to need the transplant in the first place. Since you believe the government should force a woman to essentially donate her entire body to a fetus for nine months, do you also believe that the government should be in the business of forcing people to donate organs and tissues to those who will die without them? If not, why? It's an enormous contradiction.

[Minerva]

this is so page 4, but

lol what?

I've been called "pro-death" loads of times. "Anti-life" I rarely see, but it's not unheard of.

I have a honest question:

I wouldn't counsel a friend to get an abortion and would never get one for myself. It would be hard to give consent to my daughter to do something that goes against my personal beliefs BUT I am completely supportive of keeping abortions legal and accessible to those who want them. I would like to see unplanned pregnancies decreased with the increase in safe sex education and easy access to birth control. Also the propaganda of "pro-life" makes me roll my eyes. I went to school with the Erwin brothers and know their parents and EVERYONE on my Facebook is singing the "film"'s praises. I'm keeping my opinions to myself because I don't want them to label me a "BABY-KILLER" ("pro-life" attacks)

What am I considered? I have always thought I was pro-life because I would never get an abortion myself and I do want to see a decrease in the procedure. However, reading this forum has made me think that maybe I am really pro-choice in my political views but pro-life in my personal views.

Oh and I completely support abortion in the case of rapes, incest and if the mother's physical life will be harmed in anyway.

Can I just tell people if they ask that I am a pro-life pro-choicer? I just don't want to be offensive to either side or attach a label to myself that either side will automatically draw unfair opinions from. Any help?

I've heard "I don't like abortion, but I'm pro-choice," or "pro-life for myself, pro-choice for everyone else" before. If you think abortion should remain legal, you definitely don't fall in the pro-life camp as far as I'm concerned.

[bananacat]

I have a honest question:

I wouldn't counsel a friend to get an abortion and would never get one for myself. It would be hard to give consent to my daughter to do something that goes against my personal beliefs BUT I am completely supportive of keeping abortions legal and accessible to those who want them. I would like to see unplanned pregnancies decreased with the increase in safe sex education and easy access to birth control. Also the propaganda of "pro-life" makes me roll my eyes. I went to school with the Erwin brothers and know their parents and EVERYONE on my Facebook is singing the "film"'s praises. I'm keeping my opinions to myself because I don't want them to label me a "BABY-KILLER" ("pro-life" attacks)

What am I considered? I have always thought I was pro-life because I would never get an abortion myself and I do want to see a decrease in the procedure. However, reading this forum has made me think that maybe I am really pro-choice in my political views but pro-life in my personal views.

Oh and I completely support abortion in the case of rapes, incest and if the mother's physical life will be harmed in anyway.

Can I just tell people if they ask that I am a pro-life pro-choicer? I just don't want to be offensive to either side or attach a label to myself that either side will automatically draw unfair opinions from. Any help?

What you are is brainwashed. You believe that pro-choicers are horrible people and you're ashamed to be part of that. But you are both pro-choice and you are anti-abortion. You're not pro-life more than anyone else is. Aside from psychopaths and serial killers, everyone is pro-life and I won't give up that label for a specific use.

[Minerva]

What you are is brainwashed. You believe that pro-choicers are horrible people and you're ashamed to be part of that. But you are both pro-choice and you are anti-abortion. You're not pro-life more than anyone else is. Aside from psychopaths and serial killers, everyone is pro-life and I won't give up that label for a specific use.

Sorry I keep posting, but THIS. Let's take back "family" while we're at it.

[formergothardite]

If you believe women should have a choice, then you are pro-choice. I prefer anti-choice over pro-life, since they want to remove the choice. Personally I wouldn't have an abortion except for in the case where my life was in danger, but that doesn't mean I want to take the choice away from other women if they wanted to do differently.

I don't think pro-life fits, because like Didi said, she wouldn't force people to save the life of a person who needs a kidney transplant or a bone marrow transplant. She would let them die if the the people who were their match didn't want to donate part of their body. so she isn't really pro-life.

[Koala]

If my daughter wanted an abortion I would not give my consent.

i am illogical, what can i say? ;)

This is like the third time this week I've seen someone say, "I'm illogical!11!!!" like it's a goddamned badge of honor :doh:

[lexiloumarie]

This is like the third time this week I've seen someone say, "I'm illogical!11!!!" like it's a goddamned badge of honor :doh:

Like that freaking GPA lady. I do not understand how ignorance makes you holier. Jews are literally the exact opposite.

[Didi]

Koala - It's not a badge of honor for me. It's reality - I am not skilled enough to make all of my beliefs make sense and flow together logically.

I was thinking a few nights ago before going to sleep about whether I would be willing to go vegetarian if it meant saving babies. Like, if someone felt that in order to be pro-life I had to view ALL life as sacred not just human life - would I go vegetarian? (or vegan, but I couldn't go vegan and they don't kill the animals we get our eggs and milk from just don't always treat them well. :( ) I think I would, but it would be really hard. :-p Probably because I don't view all life as sacred just human life.

[Witsec7]

Koala - It's not a badge of honor for me. It's reality - I am not skilled enough to make all of my beliefs make sense and flow together logically. ...

So what you are saying is you hold an opinion, but are unwilling to put the time and effort into defending it, but you excuse yourself by saying you are 'unskilled'. What particular skills do you think you need to articulate and defend your position?

[formergothardite]

Koala - It's not a badge of honor for me. It's reality - I am not skilled enough to make all of my beliefs make sense and flow together logically.

I was thinking a few nights ago before going to sleep about whether I would be willing to go vegetarian if it meant saving babies. Like, if someone felt that in order to be pro-life I had to view ALL life as sacred not just human life - would I go vegetarian? (or vegan, but I couldn't go vegan and they don't kill the animals we get our eggs and milk from just don't always treat them well. :( ) I think I would, but it would be really hard. :-p Probably because I don't view all life as sacred just human life.

Perhaps it is because they don't. Pro-life people can never make their beliefs look logical because they aren't based on logic. You are placing the value of a 8 week old fetus above the life of a 25 year old mother who needs a kidney transplant. That isn't pro-life. You are saying that a woman should lose rights over her life because another human depends on it, yet you don't want to extend that same thought process to anyone outside the womb.

Why should we base laws on something that isn't even the slightest bit logical?

[Didi]

A lot of my thoughts and opinions are not going to logically make sense to people. I can only try to explain the best I can and then drop it. The whole gospel (Jesus being born of a virgin, living a perfect life, taking on the sins of mankind in death, rising again) doesn't make SENSE to people and I can explain the best I know how, but I am not going to be able to make it make sense. So, if I cannot make my most important belief make sense logically how is anything else going to work?

*I* believe it. It makes sense to me. It doesn't have to make sense to other people.

I don't mean that in a "screw you" kind of way - just a "I can only try my best" way.

It makes sense to ME logically that I can believe a pregnancy creates human life and so the fetus/embryo/etc is a human being life from the get go and therefore I am opposed to abortion because I believe it is taking human life. While at the SAME TIME not being angry by women who get abortions because they don't hold to my same beliefs I guess?? Like... I think it is taking a human life, but they don't, so I can't force my belief on them? Again I am not doing a good job of explaining, but I don't know how else to say it.

ETA Former G - I NEVER said I was putting the life of a baby over the life of a mother - I have stated many times in the case where the mother will die I think they should be able to get a abortion. I don't think *I* would get one, but that is my own personal thing - I have NO qualms with other people getting abortions when it means saving the life of the mother.

Being on here is good for me - I have spent almost my entire life completely with people who thought the same or more conservatively than I did. so being on here makes me think and look at other people's views and thoughts and ways of life. :)