October Baby

[Athena]

Plenty of them do, yeah.

But what that completely ignores is that many, many, MANY people have abortions not only for health reasons or because they don't want to raise a child. They do it before they "show" because they don't want anyone to ever know that they got pregnant or even had sex.

And I totally get that in cultures where shame killings are common, but if a woman gets an abortion because people will gossip about her I think that sucks. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm pro-choice. I would never support legislation to ban abortion but I don't have to agree with it in every instance.

[27randomscribbles]

Donating a kidney might not raise your risk of kidney failure, but it IS removing one "spare part" you have if something bad might happen to only one of your kidneys.

That said, I'd probably donate.

Recently I saw a documentary about kidney donation for pay in Iran (both donors and recipients are all Iranian citizens). It was pretty interesting yet sort of disturbing, all of the negotiation that has to go on, the two halves of the equation are talking directly and negotiating a price and yes, there are issues of coercion.

But it reminded me of some things I'd read about losing eyes, they recommend people be extra careful with their remaining eye (using goggles and the like way more often than "normal" people) just because there too, they've only got the one left, at that point.

I will say if it ever becomes possible to gestate fetuses in a vat it would likely change the entire abortion debate, but on the other hand if we could gestate fetuses in a vat I can imagine that quickly becoming the standard way for people who can afford it, anyway.

Been at work all day but I'm back to say I'd totally have a kid in a vat. I wish I could because I hate the idea of childbirth, and won't adopt, and if I ever have a kid I'll have a c-section. So yeah, lets get a move on with this vat thing. :) And please, no bs about how some women just don't "understand yet" and that childbirth really isn't that bad...and how only uneducated women have c-sections, etc. I don't expect that from most here but it's out there. We women can never make our own choices...we are either too stupid or uninformed, or we just aren't allowed. Sigh.

For the record, if I had an unwanted pregnancy with the ability to transfer it to a vat for "fetal adoption" or whatever the pro-life crowd would want...I'd still abort. And I'm sure we'd still be fighting for the right to abort no matter what options there are, since (as many have said) it's really just about punishing women for being "sluts".

[Athena]

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

In a perfect kidney retrieval, there is a short recovery and no long-term effects. In a perfect pregnancy, there is 9 months of illness and compromised ability to work, followed by intense pain and a 1/4 chance of having to cut through the abdominal muscles, followed by a 6 week recovery and some lifelong effects.

That doesn't exactly describe a perfect pregnancy. A woman may not experience any sickness at all, have a job that wouldn't be affected by pregnancy, get an epidural which helps with the pain dramatically, and no C-Section. Just watch the show, "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant". Meanwhile, kidney donation follow-up care continues for up to 9 weeks and annual check-ups for life. Lifelong effects also apply to kidney donation.

[Athena]

Oh good a battle between kidney donation and childbirth! Such fun. I was curious to see which was worse so I did some googling. Depending on who you ask and what subgroups you look at between 1.7 and 5.1 people per 100 000 die from donating a kidney. Interestingly, women actually have the lowest mortality rate. That is from 2010. On the other hand the maternal mortality rate was 13.3 per 100 000 in 2010. This was all for the United States. So, purely on the basis of what you are more likely to die from it appears childbirth is more dangerous. That doesn't factor anything else in but death.

Maternal death (I find Amnesty to be pretty credible): http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/camp ... -in-the-us

Kidney donor death (no idea how legit this is): http://www.livescience.com/6191-donatin ... -life.html

The U.S. is one of the worst examples for maternal deaths in the developed world. In Canada in 2010 it was 7.8 per 100,000. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/rhs-ssg/maternal-maternelle/mortality-mortalite/pdf/mortal-eng.pdf

And fewer people donate kidneys than women give birth which means that the possibility of pre-existing conditions being a factor in death is greater for childbirth. Also, I suspect that only healthy candidates are chosen for kidney donation which would affect their chances of death.

[dairyfreelife]

Donating blood is a good idea. I've always wanted to because I have a good blood type, but I'm not allowed. I might consider bone marrow donation at some point. It's more risky since you have to have anesthesia and an incision, but since I can't donate blood and giving up a kidney would be very risky with my crappy health, bone marrow giving would be better. Still wish I could give blood. :(

[Boogalou]

The U.S. is one of the worst examples for maternal deaths in the developed world. In Canada in 2010 it was 7.8 per 100,000. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/rhs-ssg/maternal-maternelle/mortality-mortalite/pdf/mortal-eng.pdf

And fewer people donate kidneys than women give birth which means that the possibility of pre-existing conditions being a factor in death is greater for childbirth. Also, I suspect that only healthy candidates are chosen for kidney donation which would affect their chances of death.

I was giving American statistics because the abortion debate is largely happening in the States so it seemed to be the most relevant. Also, I think that this speaks to the issue of why abortion needs to remain legal. If it's outlawed then everybody, no matter how great their risk, needs to carry to term and give birth. I don't imagine that would be doing the maternal death rate any favours.

[Athena]

I was giving American statistics because the abortion debate is largely happening in the States so it seemed to be the most relevant. Also, I think that this speaks to the issue of why abortion needs to remain legal. If it's outlawed then everybody, no matter how great their risk, needs to carry to term and give birth. I don't imagine that would be doing the maternal death rate any favours.

The debate is well alive in Canada as well. I don't think abortion ever will or should be outlawed (at least in Canada in the foreseeable future.).

[gardenvarietycitizen]

And I totally get that in cultures where shame killings are common, but if a woman gets an abortion because people will gossip about her I think that sucks. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm pro-choice. I would never support legislation to ban abortion but I don't have to agree with it in every instance.

Even in the US, very often it's a lot more than just "people will gossip."

[gardenvarietycitizen]

This one?

Yep - exactly that one. Thanks for that.

[Boogalou]

The debate is well alive in Canada as well. I don't think abortion ever will or should be outlawed (at least in Canada in the foreseeable future.).

Hm, I think I worded that poorly. I guess I see abortion as much more under attack in the US and much more of a political issue whereas Canadian politics generally won't go near it. I'm with you on the rest, though.

[bananacat]

And I totally get that in cultures where shame killings are common, but if a woman gets an abortion because people will gossip about her I think that sucks. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm pro-choice. I would never support legislation to ban abortion but I don't have to agree with it in every instance.

Wow, you certainly live in a naive little bubble. Women in the United States, in 2011 have gotten fired for getting pregnant while single. Women who are pregnant are one of the highest risk groups for being victims of domestic violence. Teens who get pregnant are frequently kicked out of the house. Many educational opportunities are denied to pregnant teens, but it's mostly unofficial so it's hard to fight against it. We still live in a culture where sex is considered very taboo, and the stigma and public shaming are very real and detrimental. It's naive of you to suggest that it's something so shallow. You do not seem to be aware of both the physical and social consequences of carrying out a pregnancy. It's not nearly as easy and harmless as you seem to think.

[Witsec1]

. Also, I suspect that only healthy candidates are chosen for kidney donation which would affect their chances of death.

Which is kind of the point.

[27randomscribbles]

Wow, you certainly live in a naive little bubble. Women in the United States, in 2011 have gotten fired for getting pregnant while single. Women who are pregnant are one of the highest risk groups for being victims of domestic violence. Teens who get pregnant are frequently kicked out of the house. Many educational opportunities are denied to pregnant teens, but it's mostly unofficial so it's hard to fight against it. We still live in a culture where sex is considered very taboo, and the stigma and public shaming are very real and detrimental. It's naive of you to suggest that it's something so shallow. You do not seem to be aware of both the physical and social consequences of carrying out a pregnancy. It's not nearly as easy and harmless as you seem to think.

This. My sister got pregnant out of wedlock and young (very recently), and despite my somewhat wealthy family's full support with finances and care, housing, etc., (despite a lot of shame which is inevitable in a religious household), the ladies at the Xtian crisis counseling center spent weeks trying to get her to give her kid up for adoption. God forbid she be an "evil" single mother. I think they felt she needed some sort of punishment for sex--in this case, not being able to keep her kid. Sex definitely is taboo, and like you said, it's not a walk in the park. Sometimes the stigma can have serious consequences.

[Minerva]

Been at work all day but I'm back to say I'd totally have a kid in a vat. I wish I could because I hate the idea of childbirth, and won't adopt, and if I ever have a kid I'll have a c-section. So yeah, lets get a move on with this vat thing. :) And please, no bs about how some women just don't "understand yet" and that childbirth really isn't that bad...and how only uneducated women have c-sections, etc. I don't expect that from most here but it's out there. We women can never make our own choices...we are either too stupid or uninformed, or we just aren't allowed. Sigh.

For the record, if I had an unwanted pregnancy with the ability to transfer it to a vat for "fetal adoption" or whatever the pro-life crowd would want...I'd still abort. And I'm sure we'd still be fighting for the right to abort no matter what options there are, since (as many have said) it's really just about punishing women for being "sluts".

Same here. Not everyone can live with making a child whose well being they can't personally ensure (one of the biggest reasons I would never donate eggs). Some people are strongly opposed to adding to the population at all. Embryo transfer would only work for someone whose only problem with their pregnancy was that they didn't want to or couldn't stay pregnant.

[Athena]

Wow, you certainly live in a naive little bubble. Women in the United States, in 2011 have gotten fired for getting pregnant while single. Women who are pregnant are one of the highest risk groups for being victims of domestic violence. Teens who get pregnant are frequently kicked out of the house. Many educational opportunities are denied to pregnant teens, but it's mostly unofficial so it's hard to fight against it. We still live in a culture where sex is considered very taboo, and the stigma and public shaming are very real and detrimental. It's naive of you to suggest that it's something so shallow. You do not seem to be aware of both the physical and social consequences of carrying out a pregnancy. It's not nearly as easy and harmless as you seem to think.

Bolded = Sometimes it is. I have carried a high risk pregnancy within one month of full term, personally. I don't think it's easy or harmless, just less so than kidney donation. All of the other reasons you have listed as valid for abortion, I frankly disagree with. But I would always agree with their being able to get the abortion, just not why they are getting it.

[bananacat]

Bolded = Sometimes it is. I have carried a high risk pregnancy within one month of full term, personally. I don't think it's easy or harmless, just less so than kidney donation. All of the other reasons you have listed as valid for abortion, I frankly disagree with. But I would always agree with their being able to get the abortion, just not why they are getting it.

Yeah, I bet those shallow silly women who have abortions just so their friends won't gossip just love to ride unicorns and hang out with Elvis. :roll:

[Minerva]

Hm, I think I worded that poorly. I guess I see abortion as much more under attack in the US and much more of a political issue whereas Canadian politics generally won't go near it. I'm with you on the rest, though.

There's a motion in parliament that could change all that, though. If it were to be accepted (which is a long shot), our uteruses could easily end up being no safer than they were in the 70s.

Edited to actually make the quotes work.

[shesinsane]

Yeah, I bet those shallow silly women who have abortions just so their friends won't gossip just love to ride unicorns and hang out with Elvis. :roll:

They also window shop with the women who have abortions because they woke up feeling fat.

[thoughtful]

I actually just thought it would pass like someone saying "I like peanut butter" "I like jelly"... I will try to go back to never giving my opinion if it's not the majority.

Nobody can stop you from making that decision, but nobody expects it, either. I don't think you should be afraid to express your opinion.

There is no rule here about needing to agree -- there just happen to be a lot of people here who understand this issue and disagree with you.

You may feel that some of the answers have a mean tone to them. But most of them read, to me, like calm, logical ways to help you (and any lurkers reading) see how unsupportable your ideas are.

I especially think the following arguments really drive it home:

- if you think that an embryo or fetus is comparable to a baby, you should want anyone who has an abortion convicted of murder, as if they killed a toddler.

- if you are against choice for others, then you are trying to legislate your beliefs. If you are saying only that you, personally, wouldn't choose abortion, and don't want a say in what others do, then you are pro-choice.

- if life begins at conception, and God expects us to carry all pregnancies to term, why are there so many miscarriages?

- romanticizing the idea that each of us was Meant to Be, or that you (or the main character in October Baby) are proof that abortion is wrong, ignores the millions of tiny random things that have led to the existence of each of us.

- thinking that a woman must give up her body to complete a pregnancy and bear a child is quite comparable to thinking that a person can be forced to give blood/bone marrow/organs to others when needed.

I have feelings that are "of the heart," as well. It is not my right to express them in any way that crosses the line into the rights of others.

When it comes to health, law, science, and bodily autonomy, I prefer to use my head, and look at the facts. I have actually found that my head and heart usually agree -- in much of life, I see what is ethical, logical and kind converging.

[thoughtful]

Yep - exactly that one. Thanks for that.

You're welcome!

[pomology]

I would say they're more on par. The vast majourity of pregnancies in the developed world are not high risk. Bone marrow donation is a really good analogy - they are both incredibly painful.

Especially because with bone marrow donation the person's life might depend on you and only you, because it takes a lot of the same, um, somethings (I forget what they're called) as somebody to be able to donate. And that is rare. At least in the Ashkenazi Jewish community (the only place I have experience with bone narrow donations as both my father and cousin have donated bone marrow). But that might be partially because of the Holocaust and the fact that Ashkenazi Jewish DNA was decimate. But since far too often people are not matches with their family members, I'd guess that even outside of the Ashkenazi Jewish population, it's not that likely you'll have THAT many people that could possibly donate to you.

[bananacat]

They also window shop with the women who have abortions because they woke up feeling fat.

Don't forget to invite the woman who has lots of abortions because she doesn't feel like using birth control. Oh, and the woman who woke up one day 8 months pregnant and suddenly decided to get an elective abortion. It'll be a big hypothetical party.

[Witsec7]

Don't forget to invite the woman who has lots of abortions because she doesn't feel like using birth control. Oh, and the woman who woke up one day 8 months pregnant and suddenly decided to get an elective abortion. It'll be a big hypothetical party.

Hell I lie about the number of abortions I had, I've only had one but I tell everyone is been three.

[EmmieJ]

This. My sister got pregnant out of wedlock and young (very recently), and despite my somewhat wealthy family's full support with finances and care, housing, etc., (despite a lot of shame which is inevitable in a religious household), the ladies at the Xtian crisis counseling center spent weeks trying to get her to give her kid up for adoption. God forbid she be an "evil" single mother. I think they felt she needed some sort of punishment for sex--in this case, not being able to keep her kid. Sex definitely is taboo, and like you said, it's not a walk in the park. Sometimes the stigma can have serious consequences.

My one and only pregnancy was out of wedlock, at age 35. I remember the feeling of total freak out when I first realized I was late and could be pregnant. As a single woman, who didn't have a lot of money saved, how could I raise and support a child on my own. Pure moment of terror, followed by the thought that I could have an abortion. Almost immediately after, the awareness that if I was pregnant, there was no way I would abort. But, most importantly, I HAD THE CHOICE. Always with me, is the knowledge that I chose to have and raise my child, and the decision was not made for me, nor choice taken away from me. That is crucial to dealing with the tough moments of being a parent (and there are many such rough patches).

During those moments when your "little blessing" is behaving like a royal monster and has been working your nerves for three days' straight, and you are a single parent so it's all on you, and you ask yourself, "what the hell was I thinking, having a child on my own? I can't handle this!" And instead of screaming at your child, "I never wanted you in the first place!" you might just scream, "BE QUIET! STOP IT RIGHT NOW!" instead, and apologize for screaming later. But that dreadful thought and those painful words aren't there for the rest of your child's life, in his or her memory.

That's just one reason why choice is so critical.

I found it illuminating that Didi has been trying very hard to get pregnant, without success. It's quite likely this is why she finds abortion so wrong. I've seen the attitude before in women who desperately want to have a baby but for some reason cannot - they take it personally whenever another woman chooses not to remain pregnant. It's like somehow, they are "stealing" the baby they should by all rights have. It's not logical.

I'm 100% for choice for women, for women to have control over their own bodies. I am 100% against anyone getting to make health care decisions for women, and I'm also really cranky about it when people want to take the decision out of women's hands. It's especially galling when clothed in the idea that women don't have the mental capability to understand the consequences of their decisions. So whereas I used to make attempts to be polite and courteous to anti-choicers, I really don't have the time, patience or desire to bother with politeness on this issue anymore.

You don't believe in abortions, don't have one; and keep your damn nose out of my business.

[formergothardite]

Nobody can stop you from making that decision, but nobody expects it, either. I don't think you should be afraid to express your opinion.

There is no rule here about needing to agree -- there just happen to be a lot of people here who understand this issue and disagree with you.

You may feel that some of the answers have a mean tone to them. But most of them read, to me, like calm, logical ways to help you (and any lurkers reading) see how unsupportable your ideas are.

I especially think the following arguments really drive it home:

- if you think that an embryo or fetus is comparable to a baby, you should want anyone who has an abortion convicted of murder, as if they killed a toddler.

- if you are against choice for others, then you are trying to legislate your beliefs. If you are saying only that you, personally, wouldn't choose abortion, and don't want a say in what others do, then you are pro-choice.

- if life begins at conception, and God expects us to carry all pregnancies to term, why are there so many miscarriages?

- romanticizing the idea that each of us was Meant to Be, or that you (or the main character in October Baby) are proof that abortion is wrong, ignores the millions of tiny random things that have led to the existence of each of us.

- thinking that a woman must give up her body to complete a pregnancy and bear a child is quite comparable to thinking that a person can be forced to give blood/bone marrow/organs to others when needed.

I have feelings that are "of the heart," as well. It is not my right to express them in any way that crosses the line into the rights of others.

When it comes to health, law, science, and bodily autonomy, I prefer to use my head, and look at the facts. I have actually found that my head and heart usually agree -- in much of life, I see what is ethical, logical and kind converging.

You said it all so nicely. Didi, you admit that your beliefs are illogical, that they are heart beliefs, do you want other people to enforce their illogical, heart beliefs on you? And are you beginning to see why the blood/bone marrow/organ donation is a valid comparison?

I do think it is hard for pro-lifers who have never been confronted by these issues to except them because they have just been trained to think about saving the babies and not to think about what all that really means. Didi started out saying that a woman should lose her bodily autonomy when another life depends on it, yet she can't see how that can extend to other situations. It comes down to the pro-life movement wants to punish women who have sex. It isn't about saving lives (because if it was they would be advocating mandatory blood/bone marrow/organ donations) or about people should lose bodily autonomy when anothe life depends on them, it is about making women suffer. Didi has said that most of us here are not mentally able to understand the truth about a fetus, the whole movement is based on making women look like they are too stupid to care for themselves and so there needs to be laws to force them to do what is "right".