October Baby

[bananacat]

Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that those who think an embryo is a baby have never actually seen a human embryo. Let's try a little test.

Pick out the human baby from the pictures below:

Now, here's a picture I scanned from a biology textbook. Sorry the quality isn't great because my scanner is really old. But try picking out the cuddly human baby now:

That is a picture of human, pig, and lemur embryos. So yeah, it's not as obviously a baby as some people like to think.

ETA: I realized the last part might be misleading. Human, pig, and lemur aren't meant to be labels and aren't necessarily in same order as the pictures.

[Didi]

Can you guys explain something to me? Why is it that you feel the need to be mean when debating stuff like this?

Bananacat, saying that I live in a bubble of stupidity - that's completely unnecessary for this debate.

I already said that there is a good chance I would offer my daughter the morning after pill, and if you have a miscarriage before you ever knew you were pregnant it's possible it was alive/baby/human, but I am not 100% sure on that one. But, miscarriage where you already know you are pregnant yes I find them as sad and horrible and heartbreaking as cancer and heart disease. I have spent months, years of my life researching why women have miscarriages, what causes them, what we can do to keep the moms and the babies healthy - it is not a topic that I take lightly. I cannot say for certain that pre fingers, toes, brain, heart, etc that a baby is a baby and not just a mass of cells, but I don't need to be certain. I just need to be uncertain that it's just a mass of cells. If that makes sense - if it COULD be a baby, a human being, a life with a soul, then I want to do everything I can to protect him/her/it.

But, no I am not dumb - I am aware that there is a difference between an unborn child, especially pre-viability, and a 1 hour old, 1 year old, 3 year old, 30 year old human being walking around here on earth. I think both lives are just as precious, but there are differences.

Emmidahl - when should a woman's bodily autonomy be sacrificed for someone else? when she is souly responsible for sustaining the life of someone else.

I get that about "pro-life" at least the anti war anti death penalty part. I am not entirely anti those, so I can see why I am not full pro-life. :)

Everytime I have tried to give blood I have been turned away.

I am on donor registries. I am an organ donor on my license. (separately from the registry) And no, I don't think the government has the authority or right to mandate that I give my blood or organs to others. I think it is the right thing to do to be an organ donor - unless you have a religion where it would be deemed wrong. Outside of that I think it is selfish to NOT be an organ donor if you are dead and your organs can save a life than I think you should do it. But, this is "America" and we can't force people to make right choices. :)

[Didi]

Oh, and Bananacat - that is actually one of my biggest pet peeves on FB recently is that picture of a very tiny baby that they are saying is am embryo...babies in the womb don't look like babies for a LONG time...and I think it is dishonest to show a picture and say "this is a baby at X weeks" when... ITS NOT! I am all for protecting life, but not lying to do it.

[bananacat]

Wow Didi, you're really original :roll: I'm sure you're the first person over to use the tone argument. Sigh, when you have nothing real to support your position, you have to resort to tone trolling. I don't particularly care about your fee-fees. Don't come onto the internet if you want everyone to treat you with kid gloves. Maybe if you stop claiming that you care about life more than I do, as a person who has saved countless lives, then I will care if you think I'm a big meanie or not. But if you're gonna talk about this stuff with the grown-ups, then you should at least at know the basics behind the topic.

The reason that I'm "mean" is that you're completely unoriginal. We get people like you all the time. And you never have anything new to say, yet you think you're just gonna set us all straight. I don't have infinite patience.

[Didi]

I know what, I am seriously sick of you people claiming "troll" when someone disagrees with you.

I was not trying to set anyone straight - I DONT LIKE DEBATING ON HERE!! I was asked questions. I tried to answer them as honestly as possible. I am not trying to set you straight. I have an opinion. you have an opinion. Yay! Go us! I am not trying to change anyone's mind. It started out because I said "I want to see that movie - here is why I actually agree with the pro-life message" I don't really give a flying fuck if you agree with me. If you do - awesome! If you don't - great! That's why I love coming to FreeJinger because there ARE so many different opinions and thoughts. But, I don't think it's fair that when someone doesn't agree with something "non-fundy" that they are lambasted.

I am not asking for kid gloves, I am asking you to act like a grown-up in a grown up intellectual discussion. I am sorry if it came across like I was asking for special treatment. I just want to be treated like a person, with respect.

[BelieveinScience]

Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that those who think an embryo is a baby have never actually seen a human embryo. Let's try a little test.

Pick out the human baby from the pictures below:

Now, here's a picture I scanned from a biology textbook. Sorry the quality isn't great because my scanner is really old. But try picking out the cuddly human baby now:

That is a picture of human, pig, and lemur embryos. So yeah, it's not as obviously a baby as some people like to think.

I love this! I took an embryology class and working chicken embryos was the best way for me to solidify my beliefs.

[Didi]

Oh, and I totally thought the baby was C - you learn something new everyday! :)

[Austin]

I'm thinking this one used to post on the Yuku board under a similar name. If so, I'm not sure if logical debate is even worth the effort.

[Minerva]

I'm not sure how I feel about your post on whether women should go to jail for having abortions. I agree that it's hard, nay impossible to blame teens who throw babies in the garbage, and I agree that the panic of finding yourself with an unplanned pregnancy might also be enough to make you do things you wouldn't normally do. But I don't like this "they know not what they do" vibe. Because most basic sex ed classes teach you exactly what a fetus is and looks like, and common sense tells you it's alive and human. I don't think there is a large-scale misinterpretation of the "clump of cells" argument, either.

[emmiedahl]

I know what, I am seriously sick of you people claiming "troll" when someone disagrees with you.

I was not trying to set anyone straight - I DONT LIKE DEBATING ON HERE!! I was asked questions. I tried to answer them as honestly as possible. I am not trying to set you straight. I have an opinion. you have an opinion. Yay! Go us! I am not trying to change anyone's mind. It started out because I said "I want to see that movie - here is why I actually agree with the pro-life message" I don't really give a flying fuck if you agree with me. If you do - awesome! If you don't - great! That's why I love coming to FreeJinger because there ARE so many different opinions and thoughts. But, I don't think it's fair that when someone doesn't agree with something "non-fundy" that they are lambasted.

I am not asking for kid gloves, I am asking you to act like a grown-up in a grown up intellectual discussion. I am sorry if it came across like I was asking for special treatment. I just want to be treated like a person, with respect.

I am sorry I called you a troll if you are not trolling. It's just that people are always coming to a forum with a pretty liberal culture and talking about their pro-life views--as if we did not know why you believe the way you do. Don't take it as an insult, I am a bit of a troll on the 19KAC facebook page. I go there just to inject my little opinions, knowing that it pisses people off but also that fans who are seeing the cracks in the pretty picture might come over to my side.

If you wanted to answer my questions, fine. If not, fine. Consider it an explanation of why I know your side's POV and yet do not agree.

[formergothardite]

So if a mentally ill mother killed her under age of 10 children because she didn't believe they were really people until they turned 10, would you also advocate that she not be charged, that nothing happen to her? Her state of mind is different than someone who kills someone in cold blood and she didn't know what she did.

I mean, basically you are saying women who have abortions are not mentally able to know what they are doing.

I have not called you names and I would still like to know the answer to this.

Also, what about pregnancies where the mother wouldn't die, but it would be very detrimental to her health. Let's say a single mom's birth control fails, her pregnancies are horrible, she throws up non-stop, none of the medicine works, to stay hydrated she will have to continually go to the hospital to get IV fluids. She isn't able to be there for her other children because she feels so bad, she isn't able to go to work at the job she loves and has worked hard to get so if she stays pregnant she will lose her job. Do you still think she should be required to stay pregnant even though it will ruin her life instead of having a early abortion?

[dairyfreelife]

I want to know if didi has ever been pregnant.

Here's a great site to discuss the development of the zygote, embryo and fetus at its various stages.

americanpregnancy.org

To me, when the baby is viable and mom's health is threatening, delivering is the option used most of the time. Once the fetus exits the body, it is no longer dependent on the mother for its survival and therefore is afforded the rights of all other humans. It is a living, breathing, functioning human being at that point. The mother can abandon her post and not be a mother at that point and it does not affect the child. It can live without mom's support, but until it exits the womb, it's cannot do so.

eta: website missing.

[Rowan]

Emmidahl - when should a woman's bodily autonomy be sacrificed for someone else? when she is souly responsible for sustaining the life of someone else.

So a woman's life should be at the very least put on hold in some aspects and completely changed in others solely because a parasite that could, in the proper circumstances, possibly become a living, sentient, human being? This mass of cells (which statistically has only about a 25% possibility of developing to a live birth once conception occurs) is more important than the fully independent and completely realized human being whose body it happens to reside in?

Um, NO. I believe every life can be special - and the life of the woman takes priority over the *potential* embryo/fetus/baby.

[emmiedahl]

Emmidahl - when should a woman's bodily autonomy be sacrificed for someone else? when she is souly responsible for sustaining the life of someone else.

You COULD sustain someone's life yourself, a living sentient person, if you gave up a kidney. That person is out there and they will die without your kidney. There is someone out there right now and they are dependent SOLELY on your willingness to sign up on a donor registry and give up the kidney.Of course it would entail time off work, paying for a surgery, recovering, and pain. Have you given a kidney? Should the government force you to?

eta: ditto for bone marrow, blood and other organs. The demand is huge, people die while waiting all the time, and yet the government does not mandate that we give organs. :think:

[KatPruska]

Super tired of the disingenuous equivocating of the Save the Pweshus Babbies crowd. You are not "pro-life," you are pro-forced-birth and pro-female-enslavement and I really wish you would just own that (also, get a hobby that doesn't include having your nose all up in my vagina, thanks so much).

[Koala]

(I know a woman who had like 6 abortions because she and her boyfriend hated condoms and the pill made her sick, so she just got abortions when she would get pregnant.

All anti-choicers "know" her. :roll:

I feel like I am not making any sense.

You're not.

[Rowan]

You COULD sustain someone's life yourself, a living sentient person, if you gave up a kidney. That person is out there and they will die without your kidney. There is someone out there right now and they are dependent SOLELY on your willingness to sign up on a donor registry and give up the kidney.Of course it would entail time off work, paying for a surgery, recovering, and pain. Have you given a kidney? Should the government force you to?

eta: ditto for bone marrow, blood and other organs. The demand is huge, people die while waiting all the time, and yet the government does not mandate that we give organs. :think:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[27randomscribbles]

Considering almost 1 in 3 (30% of) women will have an abortion before they are 45...I guess quite a few are. So I guess 30% of women should be thrown in prison for life if you had your dream of abortion being illegal and considered murder? That's a hell of a lot of women.

(source: Guttmacher Institute)

Did you forget about this question? If you had your way and abortion was considered murder, all these women would go to prison. You ok with that?

ETA, this too:

So if someone you knew killed their three year old you'd just think they didn't know and be sad? What if they thought they were doing the "right thing" or someone told them to do it? I mean, if you think abortion is murdering a baby there should be no difference, right?

[Koala]

Didi, what if you had a daughter in that situation and she wanted an abortion? Would you try to force her to continue with the pregnancy? Why would you even consider withholding the morning after pill?

[Didi]

I don't feel like anything I say will add anything productive to this convo... like I said earlier I am not trying to change anyone's minds just saying what I think.

My reason for possibly not reccomending the morning after pill to anyone is because I am shaky on my "ethics" there. :) I have always said I believe life begins at conception, but when you look at it from the view of a person who has been raped and there is like the sooo small chance they could have gotten pregnant from the assault I want to offer them all the options I can. So I am shaky on it. :)

If a mom goes psycho and kills her 3 year old child (or drowns her newborn in a toilet... or drowns her 3 children in a bathtub) I believe she needs help not jail. Not all parents who kill their kids do it because of psychotic breaks, and many do need jail, but in the cases here I think psychiatric help is needed more than jail. jail isn't going to fix anything.

and i did answer the question about if i would want women who get abortions to go to jail. i said it's a hard area, but that no i would not reccomend jail point blank.

and dairyfree -nope, been battling ovulation/period problems for 10 years and diagnosed infertility for about 2.5. We are hoping to adopt in the next couple of years, and would love for a doctor to help us get pregnant as well. We have tried Clomid, but that didn't help me get pregnant.

[Austin]

My reason for possibly not reccomending the morning after pill to anyone is because I am shaky on my "ethics" there. :) I have always said I believe life begins at conception, but when you look at it from the view of a person who has been raped and there is like the sooo small chance they could have gotten pregnant from the assault I want to offer them all the options I can. So I am shaky on it. :)

Now why on earth would you say "there is like the sooo small chance they could have gotten pregnant from the assault. . ." What the hell are you talking about?

[emmiedahl]

You can get pregnant about 3 days of the month. So Didi is referring to that soooo small 10% chance.

Didi, I could die if I became pregnant. I almost died in my last miscarriage. Finito, no more mommy for my kids. Do you really think I should risk my life for the unwanted child of a criminal? That's ridiculous. Go donate a kidney and then come tell me about sacrificing for someone who needs you.

[27randomscribbles]

Now why on earth would you say "there is like the sooo small chance they could have gotten pregnant from the assault. . ." What the hell are you talking about?

Considering she has no idea why I can't understand considering abortion murder but then being unsure about jail time for said murder...

Nothing she says makes sense. And yet I'm still watching this thread instead of getting ready for an event tomorrow.

[Austin]

The subtext of this frequently trotted-out piece of anti-choice bullshit is that if a woman is raped, the trauma of it will cause her body to reject pregnancy. In other words, if a woman does get pregnant as a result of rape, then she probably wasn't really raped.

This makes me see red, but I doubt if Didi even knows what she's saying. She's just parroting anti-choice lies.

[MrsKay]

Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that those who think an embryo is a baby have never actually seen a human embryo. Let's try a little test.

Pick out the human baby from the pictures below:

Now, here's a picture I scanned from a biology textbook. Sorry the quality isn't great because my scanner is really old. But try picking out the cuddly human baby now:

That is a picture of human, pig, and lemur embryos. So yeah, it's not as obviously a baby as some people like to think.

ETA: I realized the last part might be misleading. Human, pig, and lemur aren't meant to be labels and aren't necessarily in same order as the pictures.

I only know that "C" is human b/c I've studied fetal development to an obsessive degree. "A" might have thrown me, until I counted the fingers. Still, if I hadn't seen pics of this stage before, I'd probably be stumped.

I was totally not wanted - my mom was literally on the way out the door to her scheduled tubal ligation when the hospital called and told her that something funny - namely me - had shown up in her pre-op blood work. I thank her for not aborting me.

Still, I'm pro-choice. The main reason for me staying on that side, ironically, was infertility. To have no control over my reproductive activities, and to have no choice in losing one pregnancy after another, made me seriously feel for other women. I actually went with a friend when she had an abortion, while I was going through fertility treatment, and held her hand through the procedure. We had a very bizarre support and commiseration thing, but we both respected where the other was. I bought her a teddy bear and held her while she cried, and she supported me through a brutal, rough pregnancy.

The only time I ever got pissed was when a friend got pissed at me, upon finding out I was pregnant, because she'd just had an abortion, and she thought I was being insensitive. But that's not a pro-choice matter - that's a matter of an overly inflated ego and sense of self-importance.