October Baby

[BravaAmica]

Now why on earth would you say "there is like the sooo small chance they could have gotten pregnant from the assault. . ." What the hell are you talking about?

Um, yeah, what Austin asked. Because if a penis ejaculates inside a vagina, and it happens to be a fertile time for the woman, she will probably get pregnant. The ovaries, fallopian tubes, and uterus have no idea that the body they belong to is getting raped. Pregnancy can and does occur as a result of rape. Ask me how I know.

[Minerva]

I only know that "C" is human b/c I've studied fetal development to an obsessive degree. "A" might have thrown me, until I counted the fingers. Still, if I hadn't seen pics of this stage before, I'd probably be stumped.

I was totally not wanted - my mom was literally on the way out the door to her scheduled tubal ligation when the hospital called and told her that something funny - namely me - had shown up in her pre-op blood work. I thank her for not aborting me.

Still, I'm pro-choice. The main reason for me staying on that side, ironically, was infertility. To have no control over my reproductive activities, and to have no choice in losing one pregnancy after another, made me seriously feel for other women. I actually went with a friend when she had an abortion, while I was going through fertility treatment, and held her hand through the procedure. We had a very bizarre support and commiseration thing, but we both respected where the other was. I bought her a teddy bear and held her while she cried, and she supported me through a brutal, rough pregnancy.

The only time I ever got pissed was when a friend got pissed at me, upon finding out I was pregnant, because she'd just had an abortion, and she thought I was being insensitive. But that's not a pro-choice matter - that's a matter of an overly inflated ego and sense of self-importance.

Oh good, I'm not the only one here who's studied fetal development in detail! It's fascinating, I wish I could take a course in it without switching my major to biology and possibly having to enrol in a master's program.

[Athena]

If a mom goes psycho and kills her 3 year old child (or drowns her newborn in a toilet... or drowns her 3 children in a bathtub) I believe she needs help not jail. Not all parents who kill their kids do it because of psychotic breaks, and many do need jail, but in the cases here I think psychiatric help is needed more than jail. jail isn't going to fix anything.

Personally, I think a rope would be the best "fix" for a person who kills a child. But that situation is light years away from abortion in my opinion.

and i did answer the question about if i would want women who get abortions to go to jail. i said it's a hard area, but that no i would not reccomend jail point blank.

and dairyfree -nope, been battling ovulation/period problems for 10 years and diagnosed infertility for about 2.5. We are hoping to adopt in the next couple of years, and would love for a doctor to help us get pregnant as well. We have tried Clomid, but that didn't help me get pregnant.

I too experienced the pain of infertility; all while working in a medical records office where I would see the files of women who had recieved abortions. I was so angry with them - to give up something that I desired so much. I considered myself pro-life at that point, but I came to a realization - their decision must always be theirs. No matter how I feel about it women will always get abortions. I am fully pro-choice, and would respect and support the decision to have an abortion - for any reason. That said, I still don't have to like it.

[bananacat]

My mom also didn't want me. Both my brother and I were birth control failures. And yet, I've never been anti-abortion. If my mom had had an abortion, I wouldn't exist to know or care about it. Since she chose to have me, I don't see why choice should be taken away. There are a million different ways that I could have never been born. If my had had an abortion, if that condom hadn't broken, if my mom's flight had left on time and she had never met my dad at the airport. The existential crisis is never a good argument, especially for anyone whose mother chose to have them.

[Koala]

Didi, what if you had a daughter in that situation and she wanted an abortion? Would you try to force her to continue with the pregnancy?

Can you answer this question?

[dramallama]

I, personally, feel the need to be what you call "mean" to anti-choicers because these people think I should not have the right to control my own reproductive future/what goes on inside of my own body. Also, I am super-dee-duper pro-life because I am pro-universal healthcare, anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-the right of any woman to choose not to risk her life and health (and all pregnancies risk those things) for a zygote or embryo.

[Witsec7]

Didi wrote:

I do not think abortion should ever be an option in a healthy pregnancy, but for anyone who has had an abortion I don't think of you as a horrible person or a murderess - it's more like I think you didn't know and it's sad?

Such patriarchal bullshit. Women are capable of making informed consent with regards to their private medical choices didi.

[formergothardite]

I don't feel like anything I say will add anything productive to this convo... like I said earlier I am not trying to change anyone's minds just saying what I think.

My reason for possibly not reccomending the morning after pill to anyone is because I am shaky on my "ethics" there. :) I have always said I believe life begins at conception, but when you look at it from the view of a person who has been raped and there is like the sooo small chance they could have gotten pregnant from the assault I want to offer them all the options I can. So I am shaky on it. :)

If a mom goes psycho and kills her 3 year old child (or drowns her newborn in a toilet... or drowns her 3 children in a bathtub) I believe she needs help not jail. Not all parents who kill their kids do it because of psychotic breaks, and many do need jail, but in the cases here I think psychiatric help is needed more than jail. jail isn't going to fix anything.

and i did answer the question about if i would want women who get abortions to go to jail. i said it's a hard area, but that no i would not reccomend jail point blank.

and dairyfree -nope, been battling ovulation/period problems for 10 years and diagnosed infertility for about 2.5. We are hoping to adopt in the next couple of years, and would love for a doctor to help us get pregnant as well. We have tried Clomid, but that didn't help me get pregnant.

I disagree. I think these conversations are productive because most of the pro-lifers who come here haven't really thought through what they believe. You are saying that abortion is murder, yet you don't want to even want to treat women who have had abortions like they committed murder because of mental illness. That makes no sense. If you really think women have abortions because they aren't capable of understanding that they are committing murder than it only makes sense that you would at least reccomend being placed in a psychiatric ward. If I lost it and killed my children, you wouldn't just let me go and leave me with lots of small children would you? So why let a woman who committed murder via abortion free so she could possible do it again?

And I know you said bodily autonomy ends when another life is depending on you to live, well let me give you this real situation that happened at my church when I was a child. One of the church members needed a kidney transplant, she had lots of other health problems so she had a hard time getting on the donor list, the church encouraged members to see if they were a match, one person was. Initially they said they would donate, but a week later backed out because they didn't want to have to go through the surgery and take time off from work. Three months later the woman who needed a kidney died. The other person could have kept her alive, but decided to not do so. So should bodily autonomy end have ended in this case since another life was depending on the donor to live? If not, why?

And having been pro-life for a long time, I know how hard it is too look at these sort of questions and answer because I have found most pro-life organizations don't want people to really think hard about what being pro-life really means. These sort of questions are tough to answer, but if you are willing to vote to take rights away from women, they really need to be answered first.

[Sola]

I know what, I am seriously sick of you people claiming "troll" when someone disagrees with you.

I was not trying to set anyone straight - I DONT LIKE DEBATING ON HERE!! I was asked questions. I tried to answer them as honestly as possible. I am not trying to set you straight. I have an opinion. you have an opinion. Yay! Go us! I am not trying to change anyone's mind. It started out because I said "I want to see that movie - here is why I actually agree with the pro-life message" I don't really give a flying fuck if you agree with me. If you do - awesome! If you don't - great! That's why I love coming to FreeJinger because there ARE so many different opinions and thoughts. But, I don't think it's fair that when someone doesn't agree with something "non-fundy" that they are lambasted.

I am not asking for kid gloves, I am asking you to act like a grown-up in a grown up intellectual discussion. I am sorry if it came across like I was asking for special treatment. I just want to be treated like a person, with respect.

If you do not like debating on here, there is a very simple thing you can do; don't post in abortion threads.

It's a bit like the whole abortion debate, if you don't like abortion; don't have one.

Simples.

[formergothardite]

Didi, if you have been a member longer than three seconds than you knew that posting you were pro-life would cause people to question you.

[Shirley MacLaine]

this is so page 4, but

We don't saddle y'all with pro-death or anti-life.

lol what?

[BelieveinScience]

I do not think abortion should ever be an option in a healthy pregnancy, but for anyone who has had an abortion I don't think of you as a horrible person or a murderess - it's more like I think you didn't know and it's sad?

What defines healthy pregnancy? Healthy mom? Healthy baby?

[mirele]

What defines healthy pregnancy? Healthy mom? Healthy baby?

The bishop decides. You know, like the one here who thinks so little of women that he'd let a woman 12 weeks pregnant die before she could have an abortion to save her life. Seriously. She had pregnancy hypertension and couldn't even be moved. The hospital ethicist (a nun) decided the woman could have an abortion. The bishop excommunicated the nun and kicked St. Joseph's Hospital out of the fraternity of Catholic hospitals. Oh yeah, the woman had four living children who would have been left motherless if she died. This asshat bishop, Thomas Olmstead, would have had a woman die because her body was failing due to pregnancy, than let her have an abortion.

Women are only allowed to live as long as we're able to serve as containers for the fetuses we're carrying. If we can no longer do that, then we might as well die. Fuck that shit.

[Rowan]

The bishop decides. You know, like the one here who thinks so little of women that he'd let a woman 12 weeks pregnant die before she could have an abortion to save her life. Seriously. She had pregnancy hypertension and couldn't even be moved. The hospital ethicist (a nun) decided the woman could have an abortion. The bishop excommunicated the nun and kicked St. Joseph's Hospital out of the fraternity of Catholic hospitals. Oh yeah, the woman had four living children who would have been left motherless if she died. This asshat bishop, Thomas Olmstead, would have had a woman die because her body was failing due to pregnancy, than let her have an abortion.

Women are only allowed to live as long as we're able to serve as containers for the fetuses we're carrying. If we can no longer do that, then we might as well die. Fuck that shit.

This is so messed up. The pregnancy is going to end regardless - how is it "better" that it ended because the woman died while you did NOTHING vs. it ended in order to save the life that could be saved? :angry-cussing: I hate the people who think this is a legitimate and defensible action.

[Didi]

It never crossed my mind that the facts I had heard about bodies in distress being less likely to conceive would lead to the conclusion that if a woman was pregnant she probably was not raped. That is ludicrous and I would never support or think that.

I did a quick google of the topic and y'all are right the facts I had been presented were not sound. Just to note - I did not get them from "pro-lifers" and was not something I grew up believing. I was concerned in my 20's that if I was on the pill and got raped the pill would kill my baby. Leaving aside that my belief the pill would abort my baby was wrong - a friend of mine who was studying at Wellesley College told me to just get on the pill because all of the studies she was reading said that the chances of a viable pregnancy happening were so slim anyways it wasn't worth suffering by not being on the pill. She said if I DID conceive there was a high likelihood that my body would miscarry.

But, I should not have made the comment without researching - I am sorry. I did not intend to insinuate that if someone was raped and pregnant they were lying.

If my daughter wanted an abortion I would not give my consent. But, if she did it anyways she would not receive attacks from me - I would just be hurting so much for her. But, no I would not reccomend or give consent for an abortion. I do not believe I have to give consent though. (legally)

I think the case of the Bishop was wrong.

FormerG - I actually just thought it would pass like someone saying "I like peanut butter" "I like jelly"... I will try to go back to never giving my opinion if it's not the majority.

[formergothardite]

The thing is, you are saying that you want to ban anyone from eating peanut butter and that people who eat peanut butter are committing a horrible crime. Not that you personally don't like peanut butter but don't care if others eat it.

And I would love an answer to the question about people being forced to donate organs. If another person is depending on them to live, should their bodily autonomy be dismissed and they be forced to donate?

[fundiefan]

The thing is, you are saying that you want to ban anyone from eating peanut butter and that people who eat peanut butter are committing a horrible crime. Not that you personally don't like peanut butter but don't care if others eat it.

And I would love an answer to the question about people being forced to donate organs. If another person is depending on them to live, should their bodily autonomy be dismissed and they be forced to donate?

NOooooooooooooooooooooo! Not peanut butter!

[formergothardite]

I know, peanut butter is a hot topic of debate. LOL But it just seems like all the pro-lifers instead of actually answering questions just go away from threads. If you are going to vote to strip women of bodily automony, then you should at least be able to back up your beliefs in a debate. But most cannot. And I was one of those people when I was a pro-lifer and being forced to look at what being pro-life really means is what caused me to be pro-choice.

[bananacat]

She won't answer any questions that she doesn't like. She'll only fall back on "you're killing a baby" and expect us to be swayed. She thinks that we're all so stupid that we think embryos are toasters and if only she can show us the amazing Truth that they're actually precious little babies, then we'll be converted.

[formergothardite]

Well she should be able to explain why if bodily autonomy is lost in the case of pregnancy because one life depends on another, why it shouldn't be lost in other cases.

[Didi]

I have tried to answer every question shot at me. Many of them are repeats, so I don't feel the need to say the same thing over and over.

I believe a baby is a human life - even inside the womb. So therefore I believe it is wrong for everyone - not just for me - to kill it. But, I can only say "Here is what I believe." - I cannot force anyone else to take my beliefs and in this conversation there has not been a single time when I have tried to. I did not state I think you guys are unaware of the biological dna of embryos being human. I do not expect to "convert" anyone. I am not trying to.

FG - I am not even sure what your question argument is. I have tried to the best of my ability to explain why I think women are responsible to care for the child growing inside of them , but to me that does not translate into "Here is why people as a whole should have to give up their organs to take care of other people." I am sorry if I am being obtuse, that is not my intention. But, I really don't see the point in continuing this dialogue.

Right now, the reason I keep returning is because I do not want to be accused of "flouncing" just because the topic is hard. But, I really don't see how it is flouncing when I never set out to change anyone's minds, opinions, or beliefs. If you were a bunch of hyper fundies and we were debating another topic where I take the more "liberal" view - my "style" wouldn't change. I would still state my opinions and why I believe them - I would still engage with people and try to be respectful, but at the end of the day I would still have my thoughts and you would have your's.

You have made me rethink my supposition that raped women are less likely to get pregnant on ovulation day. I had always wondered why the biology would not work in the case of rape, and I see now I should have done my own research before now and not trusted others to research for me. :) I have researched on other things related to the pro-life/pro-choice conversation, but never specifically pregnancy related to rape.

[Tee-Tee]

It never crossed my mind that the facts I had heard about bodies in distress being less likely to conceive would lead to the conclusion that if a woman was pregnant she probably was not raped. That is ludicrous and I would never support or think that.

I did a quick google of the topic and y'all are right the facts I had been presented were not sound. Just to note - I did not get them from "pro-lifers" and was not something I grew up believing. I was concerned in my 20's that if I was on the pill and got raped the pill would kill my baby. Leaving aside that my belief the pill would abort my baby was wrong - a friend of mine who was studying at Wellesley College told me to just get on the pill because all of the studies she was reading said that the chances of a viable pregnancy happening were so slim anyways it wasn't worth suffering by not being on the pill. She said if I DID conceive there was a high likelihood that my body would miscarry.

But, I should not have made the comment without researching - I am sorry. I did not intend to insinuate that if someone was raped and pregnant they were lying.

If my daughter wanted an abortion I would not give my consent. But, if she did it anyways she would not receive attacks from me - I would just be hurting so much for her. But, no I would not reccomend or give consent for an abortion. I do not believe I have to give consent though. (legally)

I think the case of the Bishop was wrong.

FormerG - I actually just thought it would pass like someone saying "I like peanut butter" "I like jelly"... I will try to go back to never giving my opinion if it's not the majority.

I'm a Wellesley graduate and am truly embarrassed that a fellow alumna told you such an outright lie.

[Didi]

Tee-Tee - Congrats! On being a Wellesley grad - from what I have heard and seen it's a great school! :-) I visited the campus a couple of times and was always very impressed with the looks - even though I never attended a lecture. :)

[emmiedahl]

It never crossed my mind that the facts I had heard about bodies in distress being less likely to conceive would lead to the conclusion that if a woman was pregnant she probably was not raped. That is ludicrous and I would never support or think that.

I did a quick google of the topic and y'all are right the facts I had been presented were not sound. Just to note - I did not get them from "pro-lifers" and was not something I grew up believing. I was concerned in my 20's that if I was on the pill and got raped the pill would kill my baby. Leaving aside that my belief the pill would abort my baby was wrong - a friend of mine who was studying at Wellesley College told me to just get on the pill because all of the studies she was reading said that the chances of a viable pregnancy happening were so slim anyways it wasn't worth suffering by not being on the pill. She said if I DID conceive there was a high likelihood that my body would miscarry.

The pill can actually preserve your fertility with PCOS and other conditions, so that your situation does not deteriorate to the point where you cannot have a child when you want one.

The pill works by suppressing ovulation. That is not a miscarriage or an abortion.

[Didi]

The pill did help a lot in my teen years, but it totally affected my sex drive post marriage. (it might have premaritally, but I didn't know :)) Now that we are trying to get pregnant I cannot imagine going on again, but I would if needed. :)

I feel like there is a lot of misconceptions about the pill on both sides of the coin, but I do not believe that most versions of it cause miscarriages anymore. :) I don't believe it anymore.