October Baby

[formergothardite]

Are you pro-life she who laughs?

[She Who Laughs]

Personally, I could never, would never have an abortion for any reason other than to save my life. And even then if I was pregnant and found out I had cancer and needed chemo I would probably choose to wait until after giving birth to be treated, even if it meant not surviving the cancer. Not that it would ever happen as I am past my child bearing years. What other people choose is between them, their doctor and God (if they believe in God).

[BelieveinScience]

And can you imagine what the foster care system would look like if abortions were hard to attain! In parts of Eastern Europe if you are deemed "imperfect" for something as treatable as hydrocephalus or celiacs disease, you are thrown into an orphanage because the doctors act like that's better for the child, the parents arent given support etc... Many of these children are extremely malnourished 9year olds weighing barely 12pounds. I follow a lot of special needs adoption blogs(and even have a friend who adopted a special needs child from overseas) and they always get comments about how they shouldn't be adopting a special needs kids because they're a burden on to the US health care system nonsense. I can see the US becoming just like parts of eastern Europe if abortion is made illegal. Women who don't have the resources to care for their special needs child giving them up for adoption but not enough people out there wanting to take in this child because a lot of peopel who adopt want that "perfect" baby. And if people are acting like these children are burdens on society how much support could a mother get in a world like that? Its scary to think about what the country could come to. Sorry for the rambles.

[Minerva]

Yeah, because abortion and wisdom teeth removal are exactly the same thing, right.

They're not, but can you explain why my analogy was a bad one?

[She Who Laughs]

They're not, but can you explain why my analogy was a bad one?

Mostly because the medical decisions a parent makes for a child are for the child's good. Abortion is generally not done for the good of the child, but for the good of the mother. There can be some instances where it is done to save the child from immense suffering. But in the movie (which IS what we are talking about) the babies were obviously to a point where they were viable outside the womb and the woman was choosing an abortion to better her own life. I'm not saying she was right or wrong to choose abortion, only that if it was me and I was the product of a botched abortion and then went on to suffer multiple surgeries and a lifetime of health struggles, I would definitely have some serious issues with my birth mother trying to off me.

Perhaps a better analogy would be if your parents chose to put you through some surgical procedure to make their life better and something that wasn't medically necessary.

[Minerva]

Mostly because the medical decisions a parent makes for a child are for the child's good. Abortion is generally not done for the good of the child, but for the good of the mother. There can be some instances where it is done to save the child from immense suffering. But in the movie (which IS what we are talking about) the babies were obviously to a point where they were viable outside the womb and the woman was choosing an abortion to better her own life. I'm not saying she was right or wrong to choose abortion, only that if it was me and I was the product of a botched abortion and then went on to suffer multiple surgeries and a lifetime of health struggles, I would definitely have some serious issues with my birth mother trying to off me.

Perhaps a better analogy would be if your parents chose to put you through some surgical procedure to make their life better and something that wasn't medically necessary.

I see your point, but I suppose I should specify that my intention with the wisdom teeth example was to discuss whether it's appropriate to blame anyone but the doctor for medical malpractice. I don't believe the necessity of the procedure or who's made the decision have anything to do with that. I could have independently made all decisions relating to my wisdom teeth, and I believe I could have still used the experience as a perfectly valid analogy. I also wouldn't see it as a decision to off me, but rather as a decision to prevent my existence, but that would just depend on your point of view, I guess.

[jericho]

It only grossed 1.7M and was only shown in 390 theatres. Where do you see no. 3 in screen average on the charts? I see not available numbers.

Click on "Average". If you throw out the movies with under 27 screens, October Baby is fourth actually. I follow Box Office Mojo often and theater average is a really important factor in staying power and adding more theaters in future weeks.

[formergothardite]

Personally, I could never, would never have an abortion for any reason other than to save my life. And even then if I was pregnant and found out I had cancer and needed chemo I would probably choose to wait until after giving birth to be treated, even if it meant not surviving the cancer. Not that it would ever happen as I am past my child bearing years. What other people choose is between them, their doctor and God (if they believe in God).

So you are pro-choice.

[She Who Laughs]

I see your point, but I suppose I should specify that my intention with the wisdom teeth example was to discuss whether it's appropriate to blame anyone but the doctor for medical malpractice. I don't believe the necessity of the procedure or who's made the decision have anything to do with that. I could have independently made all decisions relating to my wisdom teeth, and I believe I could have still used the experience as a perfectly valid analogy. I also wouldn't see it as a decision to off me, but rather as a decision to prevent my existence, but that would just depend on your point of view, I guess.

I guess it doesn't matter to me whether it is appropriate or not. Often we blame someone for something when their intentions were not to hurt us in the first place. I don't think she needed to forgive the birth mother to make the birth mother feel better, but more because she was hurt and felt unwanted and in order to move on in her life she needed to forgive her birth mother for what she perceived as an offense, whether or not others see it as an offense is not really relevant.

[Witsec7]

It only grossed 1.7M and was only shown in 390 theatres. Where do you see no. 3 in screen average on the charts? I see not available numbers.

Well its not showing here in BlueBoregonia. The chain theaters are doing Hunger Games and the librul commie independents in town would never be able to sell a seat by showing right wing propaganda.

Life behind the green curtain under the rainbow flag is luckily immune to their bloviating.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think it is showing in my area either, and we are the center of right wing extremism in Washington State. All my Christian friends (and atheist and Jewish ones as well) went to Hunger Games this weekend, I doubt they paid for two movies. :)

I finally read that book btw, and I recommend it!

[Minerva]

I guess it doesn't matter to me whether it is appropriate or not. Often we blame someone for something when their intentions were not to hurt us in the first place. I don't think she needed to forgive the birth mother to make the birth mother feel better, but more because she was hurt and felt unwanted and in order to move on in her life she needed to forgive her birth mother for what she perceived as an offense, whether or not others see it as an offense is not really relevant.

Yeah, I agree with you on that, and you did see the movie and I didn't. I'll stop arguing now.

[She Who Laughs]

In our area, local churches got together and had to guarantee the theater at least 1,000 ticket sales in order for them to bring the movie to our theater. I would imagine if they don't get the 1,000 sales, the churches will have to pitch in and cover the cost of however many sales they are short. I think they will make it to the 1,000 though since we saw it the night before it's official release and there were over 500 people there to see it that night.

[Arielkay]

Personally, I could never, would never have an abortion for any reason other than to save my life. And even then if I was pregnant and found out I had cancer and needed chemo I would probably choose to wait until after giving birth to be treated, even if it meant not surviving the cancer. Not that it would ever happen as I am past my child bearing years. What other people choose is between them, their doctor and God (if they believe in God).

You see, this is what I don't get. You're pregnant and have Cancer, but you put off the treatment because it could hurt the baby. Know what else could hurt the baby? Cancer! In that case either the Cancer kills Mom and baby, or the baby lives but Mom dies later. (In some cases it works out, but I don't think I'd like to play the odds on that). How is either one of those preferable to an abortion? How could you justify purposely having a baby that would be left motherless? (And yes I do support the mother having the choice to do what she feels is right, I just don't understand it.)

This movie is pure propaganda and even most of the fans know it (and SAY IT). It really doesn't matter that much if the movie is acted well or not. It was made to make women feel guilty for their choice and to push an agenda.

I am going to see the Hunger Games. Sadly, I think that is closer to reality than than October Baby.

Ack - edited for riffle.

[Witsec7]

This movie is pure propoganda and even most of the fans know it (and SAY IT). It really doesn't matter that much if the movie is acted well or not. It was made to make women feel guilty for their choice and to push an agenda.

Yea I hope the churches and tighty righty religionists spend big bucks viewing this film, less to put in the offering plates on sunday to add to their churches tax free wealth.

[She Who Laughs]

You see, this is what I don't get. You're pregnant and have Cancer, but you put off the treatment because it could hurt the baby. Know what else could hurt the baby? Cancer! In that case either the Cancer kills Mom and baby, or the baby lives but Mom dies later. (In some cases it works out, but I don't think I'd like to play the odds on that). How is either one of those preferable to an abortion? How could you justify purposely having a baby that would be left motherless? (And yes I do support the mother having the choice to do what she feels is right, I just don't understand it.)

This movie is pure propoganda and even most of the fans know it (and SAY IT). It really doesn't matter that much if the movie is acted well or not. It was made to make women feel guilty for their choice and to push an agenda.

I am going to see the Hunger Games. Sadly, I think that is closer to reality than than October Baby.

A lot of that depends on the type and extent of the cancer, no two cases would be exactly alike. And if I died from the cancer after giving birth, I would have made provisions for the child to have someone to raise it, whether that would be my husband or some other relative or friend. While growing up without your mother may not be the ideal, there is nothing saying that someone else couldn't do a perfectly wonderful job of raising the child.

And who goes to the movies for a "closer to reality" experience anyway? I go to the movies to see a good movie with a good plot line and something I would enjoy. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and would see it again.

[Arielkay]

A lot of that depends on the type and extent of the cancer, no two cases would be exactly alike. And if I died from the cancer after giving birth, I would have made provisions for the child to have someone to raise it, whether that would be my husband or some other relative or friend. While growing up without your mother may not be the ideal, there is nothing saying that someone else couldn't do a perfectly wonderful job of raising the child.

And who goes to the movies for a "closer to reality" experience anyway? I go to the movies to see a good movie with a good plot line and something I would enjoy. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and would see it again.

I don't just go to movies for the "closer to reality" experience. I was just thinking it ironic that a fictional movie relates more to real problems of today (such as the privileged few ignoring the poor, etc.) than one that is based on a true story.

[bananacat]

Ok, here's something that I've been wondering. If Gianna's mom tried to have an abortion at 30 weeks, or even 24 weeks, there had to be a reason for it. Did the fetus have some kind of genetic disease that they detected? And if so, then how can she blame her health issues on the botched abortion and not the underlying disease that she had? And if her mom attempted abortion because of her own health, then there's really nothing for Gianna to forgive anyway, unless she wanted her mother to just die from the pregnancy, in which case she wouldn't have been born anyway. There is just something really fishy here that doesn't make sense. Women don't get elective abortions so late. There has to be more to this story but I'm afraid to even google it because I'll probably just find propaganda.

[Witsec7]

Ok, here's something that I've been wondering. If Gianna's mom tried to have an abortion at 30 weeks, or even 24 weeks, there had to be a reason for it. Did the fetus have some kind of genetic disease that they detected? And if so, then how can she blame her health issues on the botched abortion and not the underlying disease that she had? And if her mom attempted abortion because of her own health, then there's really nothing for Gianna to forgive anyway, unless she wanted her mother to just die from the pregnancy, in which case she wouldn't have been born anyway. There is just something really fishy here that doesn't make sense. Women don't get elective abortions so late. There has to be more to this story but I'm afraid to even google it because I'll probably just find propaganda.

I tried to find this information when the thread was still fresh and all I got was propaganda links. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

Edited to add: Jensens story has had huge holes in it, she's adopted, never met her birth mother so where does she get this story from? Oh yea she can make money from the RTL by peddling her tall tale. I recall that her story has generally been refuted by the medical community as well.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

You see, this is what I don't get. You're pregnant and have Cancer, but you put off the treatment because it could hurt the baby. Know what else could hurt the baby? Cancer! In that case either the Cancer kills Mom and baby, or the baby lives but Mom dies later. (In some cases it works out, but I don't think I'd like to play the odds on that).

It really does depend on the specific odds, though. Sometimes there really is a pretty wide sweet spot to aim for.

Of course, I am pro-choice, for health or other reasons, and yeah, if that place of good odds is too small, I'd say abort (as I suspect the medical professionals also would).

[Arielkay]

It really does depend on the specific odds, though. Sometimes there really is a pretty wide sweet spot to aim for.

Of course, I am pro-choice, for health or other reasons, and yeah, if that place of good odds is too small, I'd say abort (as I suspect the medical professionals also would).

Yes, I supposed odds would play into it. But man, pregnancy is hard enough on your body. Add a very serious disease to it and that would be one very tough road. I think you'd also have to think hard about how much risk you want to take if you had other children. I've heard several stories in the news recently about this situation. I truly feel for these women.

But I'm certain I would abort in such a situation. I had two really difficult pregnancies that I barely got through. Adding anything to it would have killed me psychologically even if I survived physically. Although I respect the rights of others to make their own decisions, I value my life over a potential life.

[Minerva]

I don't just go to movies for the "closer to reality" experience. I was just thinking it ironic that a fictional movie relates more to real problems of today (such as the privileged few ignoring the poor, etc.) than one that is based on a true story.

I don't go to movies where 10% of what I paid for my ticket will to go an anti-choice organization that refers people to CPCs and is affiliated with anti-gay groups. If I want to watch/hear/read something made by someone I disagree with, I watch it in...less legal ways.

[emmiedahl]

About Gianna Jessen: her story has some holes. I am not saying it is incorrect or that it did not happen. But the type of abortion her mother supposedly received is one that is rare (it was more common when she was born, but still not the go-to method) and only used in abortions between 16 and 24 weeks. Also, California has laws banning late term abortion; was anyone arrested?

[lilwriter85]

I have been reading through this topic for awhile. I'm pro-choice but I find debates over abortion to be very difficult to discuss. I have a friend who is adopted and is very against abortion and I can sort of understand why she is against it. As for the movie October Baby, it is playing in a theater in my city. But I will wait to watch this on DVD. I think it might be a good movie even I do get pro-life propaganda vibes from the trailer.

[lilwriter85]

Nobody can stop you from making that decision, but nobody expects it, either. I don't think you should be afraid to express your opinion.

There is no rule here about needing to agree -- there just happen to be a lot of people here who understand this issue and disagree with you.

You may feel that some of the answers have a mean tone to them. But most of them read, to me, like calm, logical ways to help you (and any lurkers reading) see how unsupportable your ideas are.

I especially think the following arguments really drive it home:

- if you think that an embryo or fetus is comparable to a baby, you should want anyone who has an abortion convicted of murder, as if they killed a toddler.

- if you are against choice for others, then you are trying to legislate your beliefs. If you are saying only that you, personally, wouldn't choose abortion, and don't want a say in what others do, then you are pro-choice.

- if life begins at conception, and God expects us to carry all pregnancies to term, why are there so many miscarriages?

- romanticizing the idea that each of us was Meant to Be, or that you (or the main character in October Baby) are proof that abortion is wrong, ignores the millions of tiny random things that have led to the existence of each of us.

- thinking that a woman must give up her body to complete a pregnancy and bear a child is quite comparable to thinking that a person can be forced to give blood/bone marrow/organs to others when needed.

I have feelings that are "of the heart," as well. It is not my right to express them in any way that crosses the line into the rights of others.

When it comes to health, law, science, and bodily autonomy, I prefer to use my head, and look at the facts. I have actually found that my head and heart usually agree -- in much of life, I see what is ethical, logical and kind converging.

I like how you mentioned that. I'm interested in seeing this movie but I do get turned off by the idea that each of us was meant to be. Yup there are million things that lead to our individual existences. Looking at my life and my heritage a lot of things that lead to my existence were very violent and complicated. I'm a Mestizo Hispanic which means I have both European and Native American heritage. My female Native American ancestors were likely forced into intermarriages who with my Spanish ancestors who were colonizers during the early years of the Spanish Empire and there is the possibility that my Spanish male ancestors raped my Native American ancestors. Over time the mestizo children born in the Spanish Empire married and had children with other mestizos. One of reasons I have mixed heritage is because of greed. My father was a Vietnam Veteran and he had to kill in order to survive. Again there are millions of things that come into play into why we exist and some of those things aren't pleasant.