October Baby

[formergothardite]

I am not talking about the life of a pregnant woman, I'm talking about the life of a mother who needs an organ donation. You wouldn't force someone to keep her alive by donating part of their body, while you would force a pregnant woman to keep an eight week old fetus alive by donating part of her body. So you are saying a fetus is more important than a person who is already born.

ETA: And you do actually want to force your beliefs on everyone because you want abortion to be against the law. So something you admit isn't based in logic you are trying to force on everyone.

[Didi]

Oh, I get it - sorry!

I am not going to agree with you that they are the same thing, no matter how many times you say it.

You are choosing to take a life in one case and not choosing to help extend a life in another. They are very different.

[formergothardite]

Oh, I get it - sorry!

I am not going to agree with you that they are the same thing, no matter how many times you say it.

You are choosing to take a life in one case and not choosing to help extend a life in another. They are very different.

No, if I needed a kidney and was going to die tomorrow without it and you had the one match and refused to give it to me, you are effectivly choosing to take my life. It is no different than a woman deciding not to donate her uterus for 9 months.

[formergothardite]

Both situations involve donating a body part, without the donating in both situations the a life (in the fetus' case a potential human) will end. Why is keeping the fetus alive more important?

I just don't understand why extending the life of a fetus is more important than extending the life of a person who is already born.

[Koala]

Koala - It's not a badge of honor for me. It's reality - I am not skilled enough to make all of my beliefs make sense and flow together logically.

I was thinking a few nights ago before going to sleep about whether I would be willing to go vegetarian if it meant saving babies. Like, if someone felt that in order to be pro-life I had to view ALL life as sacred not just human life - would I go vegetarian? (or vegan, but I couldn't go vegan and they don't kill the animals we get our eggs and milk from just don't always treat them well. :( ) I think I would, but it would be really hard. :-p Probably because I don't view all life as sacred just human life.

So let me get this straight. If your child wanted an abortion (especially in the case of rape) you wouldn't give your consent. Even though your beliefs don't make sense or "flow together logically". But YOU aren't sure you would go vegetarian to "save the babies". :shock: Are you serious? So what you want basically is to control another persons body while you do whatever the hell is convenient for you. :evil:

[Athena]

No, if I needed a kidney and was going to die tomorrow without it and you had the one match and refused to give it to me, you are effectivly choosing to take my life. It is no different than a woman deciding not to donate her uterus for 9 months.

Perhaps I'll play devil's advocate here.

Woman donating her uterus gets it back after 9 months. I don't get my kidney back. I also think the expectation that I'm supposed to love my little parasite weighs in it too. I might save your life with my kidney but I may never love you. Really I think it's about the family core for anti-choices. If mothers don't love their babies then the family breaks down. And if the family breaks down all of society goes to hell. I might be reaching with the love thing, but it's a theory.

[formergothardite]

But a woman might not get her uterus back after 9 months she could end up with all sorts of health problems and could die. And if this is a 12 year old child who has been raped by her father, then there is probably not going to be a lot of love, just a lot of trauma. Forcing women to risk their lives for a fetus they have not attachment too is no different than forcing someone to donate their kidney to someone they aren't attatched to. In both cases a person is forced to give up a part of their body and risk their life against their will. Except for some reason it is okay to do this to a woman who is pregnant.

And what if it is just forcing blood donations? You will get that back. Should be be forced to donate that?

[Koala]

A lot of my thoughts and opinions are not going to logically make sense to people.

From the sounds of it they don't make logical sense to you. If they did you would be able to explain them in a way that made sense.

*I* believe it. It makes sense to me. It doesn't have to make sense to other people.

Good, then *YOU* don't get an abortion, but stay out of everybody else's uterus. You have no right to force your admittedly illogical belief on anyone...including your daughter.

[Minerva]

Oh, I get it - sorry!

I am not going to agree with you that they are the same thing, no matter how many times you say it.

You are choosing to take a life in one case and not choosing to help extend a life in another. They are very different.

So would you be cool with ending a pregnancy by removing the fetus without harming it, then? Like, with medication abortions, one drug causes fetal demise while the other only causes the uterus to empty itself by having something between a period and labour. Would you be cool with using the contraction drug alone? Or before the born alive infant act (or whatever it's called) was signed into law, certain later abortions just involved inducing before the fetus was viable. Would you be cool with that? Because in that case no one would be killing the fetus. The woman would just be exercising her right to refuse that her organs continue to be used, and the fetus would simply die for lack of those organs.

[Koala]

Woman donating her uterus gets it back after 9 months.

File under: Not always, because there are no guarantees. Hell, women still die in childbirth. There is certainly no promise you are getting anything back.

[wtfrenchtoast]

You know, I'm in the "I probably wouldn't have an abortion, but I think it should absolutely be legal" camp. Of course I can't know for sure what I would do in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, but I don't like to think of myself having an abortion. It's funny though, because I have no desire to legislate my PERSONAL choice on everyone else. Just like I don't have any desire to legislate my dislike of seafood. I don't like seafood, so I don't eat it. It's simple really.

I was talking to a Christian friend one day, and she said being anti-abortion is basically like being anti-genocide in their eyes. Which, if you really think a fertilized egg is a baby, I suppose I can see. BUT I find that a lot of people in the anti-choice camp make exceptions for things like rape. That tells me they haven't logically followed their ideas all the way through. If you make exceptions, you don't really think it's a human being with all the rights that come with that. So I guess I appreciate the honesty of people like Didi, who make no exception for rape. I also happen to think that you're a horrible person if you would force a woman to deliver her rapist's baby.

[Athena]

But a woman might not get her uterus back after 9 months she could end up with all sorts of health problems and could die. And if this is a 12 year old child who has been raped by her father, then there is probably not going to be a lot of love, just a lot of trauma. Forcing women to risk their lives for a fetus they have not attachment too is no different than forcing someone to donate their kidney to someone they aren't attatched to. In both cases a person is forced to give up a part of their body and risk their life against their will. Except for some reason it is okay to do this to a woman who is pregnant.

And what if it is just forcing blood donations? You will get that back. Should be be forced to donate that?

Assuming the pregnancy ends in the loss of the uterus/fertility/mother's life it would be comparable to forcing organ donations. Assuming the pregnancy is healthy, ie. healthy baby, healthy mother the comparison is not as equal. Sorry, I have to go feed a hungry baby...

[lexiloumarie]

For anyone who thinks birth is some simple, non-fatal event needs to read this. Birth is not always A Baby Story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... redstories

[formergothardite]

Assuming the pregnancy ends in the loss of the uterus/fertility/mother's life it would be comparable to forcing organ donations. Assuming the pregnancy is healthy, ie. healthy baby, healthy mother the comparison is not as equal. Sorry, I have to go feed a hungry baby...

But there is no way to know if it is going to end well until it is too late. A healthy mother, with a healthy looking pregnancy can turn bad in a moment. So in all cases it is like organ donations because in all cases there is no way to know if it is going to end up deadly. Forcing pregnancy is forcing a woman to risk her life.

[SayNoToMullets]

*I* believe it. It makes sense to me. It doesn't have to make sense to other people.

I don't mean that in a "screw you" kind of way - just a "I can only try my best" way.

And that's very nice if these beliefs are what govern your own behavior - but when you favor legislation that impacts reproductive health access for all women, you are saying "screw you" to people who believe differently. So yes, it does need to make sense if you advocate basing laws upon these beliefs.

[Guest Anonymous]

And that's very nice if these beliefs are what govern your own behavior - but when you favor legislation that impacts reproductive health access for all women, you are saying "screw you" to people who believe differently. So yes, it does need to make sense if you advocate basing laws upon these beliefs.

Yeah, this. You can add all the cutesy-smiley icons you like into your posts, but it doesn't make your message any less ugly.

[bananacat]

If you don't like the kidney donation analogy, then what about blood donation? I'll replenish my blood just as I would probably replenish most of the nutrients taken from me during a pregnancy. So should people be forced to donate blood to save the lives of others? Giving blood is a hell of a lot easier than going through even the healthiest pregnancy. And make no mistake, people die because others don't give enough blood. And anyone who thinks abortion should be illegal but doesn't want blood donation to be mandatory is a giant hypocrite.

The reason Didi specifically won't accept this analogy is because deep down she really believes that babies are punishment for being a slut, but she won't admit it because she wants use to think it's all about the pwecious ickle baybeez.

[Witsec7]

Yeah, this. You can add all the cutesy-smiley icons you like into your posts, but it doesn't make your message any less ugly.

All of this.

[Rowan]

For anyone who thinks birth is some simple, non-fatal event needs to read this. Birth is not always A Baby Story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... redstories

:crying-blue: :crying-blue: :crying-blue: :crying-yellow:

That is so horrible and scary and heart-breaking. These stories need to be shared so the politicians don't dismiss pregnancy as "no big deal."

[Athena]

But there is no way to know if it is going to end well until it is too late. A healthy mother, with a healthy looking pregnancy can turn bad in a moment. So in all cases it is like organ donations because in all cases there is no way to know if it is going to end up deadly. Forcing pregnancy is forcing a woman to risk her life.

I would say that may be true in a country with poor health care standards. But in most developed countries where pregnant women would have access to good prenatal care that situation would be very rare. Most women don't die in childbirth in the Western world anymore.

[Athena]

If you don't like the kidney donation analogy, then what about blood donation? I'll replenish my blood just as I would probably replenish most of the nutrients taken from me during a pregnancy. So should people be forced to donate blood to save the lives of others? Giving blood is a hell of a lot easier than going through even the healthiest pregnancy. And make no mistake, people die because others don't give enough blood. And anyone who thinks abortion should be illegal but doesn't want blood donation to be mandatory is a giant hypocrite.

The reason Didi specifically won't accept this analogy is because deep down she really believes that babies are punishment for being a slut, but she won't admit it because she wants use to think it's all about the pwecious ickle baybeez.

I'd agree that blood donation is a better analogy. To be clear, I don't think anyone should be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy.

[Renting with Raggles]

If you don't like the kidney donation analogy, then what about blood donation? I'll replenish my blood just as I would probably replenish most of the nutrients taken from me during a pregnancy. So should people be forced to donate blood to save the lives of others? Giving blood is a hell of a lot easier than going through even the healthiest pregnancy. And make no mistake, people die because others don't give enough blood. And anyone who thinks abortion should be illegal but doesn't want blood donation to be mandatory is a giant hypocrite.

The reason Didi specifically won't accept this analogy is because deep down she really believes that babies are punishment for being a slut, but she won't admit it because she wants use to think it's all about the pwecious ickle baybeez.

Maybe bone marrow donation is the better analogy because it takes longer to recover, and the procedure is more 'surgical'. But it's still way less risky than a pregnancy!

And second the bolded. Although this might only apply to the leaders of the forced birth movement; Didi has already proudly admitted that she's something of a stranger to rational thought and can't construct or articulate a logical argument to save the lives of said baybeez. She may be parroting the rhetoric without consciously employing language with the intent to mislead people.

[bananacat]

I'd agree that blood donation is a better analogy. To be clear, I don't think anyone should be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy.

Yeah, that was mostly aimed towards Didi. You've been logical and made a valid point.

[jayes1217]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice!

It boils down to the fact that I am still fairly young and scared of offending people. But I have started to make it known in "real" life and will make it to the point where I can boldly tell others whether in the Internets or friends from the past (in my ultra-conservative days) that I am pro-choice. Because ultimately, I agree with the idea that the government should not be in the business of telling people what to do with their own bodies. So, using the example about the woman who didn't like using BC and had six abortions, I might think that is despicable but that is still her right to choose and I can't take it away from her.

Also, I think the person who said I was brainwashed made a valid point but I think everyone has been brainwashed to respond to "labels" of any kind. Some people have been trained to think of a certain stereotype when they hear a specific label (Republican, Democrat, feminist, fundamentalist, etc.) It takes some time to change your mindset regarding labels and this goes for all sides.

This might be completely off-topic but the same people who are SO viciously "pro-life" are the same ones that I see posting links about Obama "forcing" healthcare, gun laws, etc. etc. etc. yadda yadda yadda...DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT THEY ARE WANTING TO DO THE EXACT SAME THING??????? :doh:

Thanks for letting me solidify my point-of-view here....I appreciate it.

[Athena]

Maybe bone marrow donation is the better analogy because it takes longer to recover, and the procedure is more 'surgical'. But it's still way less risky than a pregnancy!

I would say they're more on par. The vast majourity of pregnancies in the developed world are not high risk. Bone marrow donation is a really good analogy - they are both incredibly painful.