October Baby

[dairyfreelife]

I disagree. I don't think it's about stealing a baby they have rights to have. I think it's about feeling the harsh reality of life being very unfair.

I think it's all about the heart wrenching reality that you can't have something you really, really want and other people get it so easy and don't want anything to do with it. When all you want to do is be pregnant, I imagine hearing others abort theirs would probably make you feel that unfair reality of life and yes, a twinge of jealousy. "How come it happens so easy for you? You don't even want one and I want one so bad and you just throw it away. I don't understand why you'd do that. You don't realize how lucky you are to be able to get pregnant. It's what I want more than anything and can't have it. Why do you get it when you don't want and I can't have it." I don't think it's really fair to call people mean or illogical because of those feelings. I think many of us have felt similar feelings (not about abortion/pregnancy, but about other things) of really wanting something, being unable to have it and feeling unfair/jealous to those who have it and don't care about it. Emotions aren't always about logic, but they can be understandable. I feel for Didi who really wanted a baby, but can't have one. Infertility sucks.

Should I say I'm 100% pro-choice. My first post on here should tell you that. I admit that it would very difficult for me to have an abortion because I would fear not being able to get pregnant again and that it might be the only chance I have to have a child biologically. The reality of possibly being infertile does do that to you. I think it's very telling that Didi is infertile and pro-life. It actually makes more sense to me of why she is. I don't agree with her at all, but can see why she feels how she does.

[bananacat]

My one and only pregnancy was out of wedlock, at age 35. I remember the feeling of total freak out when I first realized I was late and could be pregnant. As a single woman, who didn't have a lot of money saved, how could I raise and support a child on my own. Pure moment of terror, followed by the thought that I could have an abortion. Almost immediately after, the awareness that if I was pregnant, there was no way I would abort. But, most importantly, I HAD THE CHOICE. Always with me, is the knowledge that I chose to have and raise my child, and the decision was not made for me, nor choice taken away from me. That is crucial to dealing with the tough moments of being a parent (and there are many such rough patches).

This paragraph is so important. Every child should know that their mother chose give birth to them. No child should have to grow up knowing that they were not chosen. In my own case, my parents had a birth control failure. My mom considered abortion. She chose not to. Now, like I said before, If she had an abortion I wouldn't exist to care about it. But I know that even though I was unplanned, I was still chosen. I know of some parents who act like their kids owe them forever. My best friend's mother is very controlling and demanding and constantly complains that she doesn't buy her mother enough gifts. She feels entitled to dictate the lives of her kids because she raised them and thinks they owe her anything she wants. In this case the mother chose to have both kids, but if we forced women to have kids, that parental attitude would only become more common.

I found it illuminating that Didi has been trying very hard to get pregnant, without success. It's quite likely this is why she finds abortion so wrong. I've seen the attitude before in women who desperately want to have a baby but for some reason cannot - they take it personally whenever another woman chooses not to remain pregnant. It's like somehow, they are "stealing" the baby they should by all rights have. It's not logical.

I'm 100% for choice for women, for women to have control over their own bodies. I am 100% against anyone getting to make health care decisions for women, and I'm also really cranky about it when people want to take the decision out of women's hands. It's especially galling when clothed in the idea that women don't have the mental capability to understand the consequences of their decisions. So whereas I used to make attempts to be polite and courteous to anti-choicers, I really don't have the time, patience or desire to bother with politeness on this issue anymore.

You don't believe in abortions, don't have one; and keep your damn nose out of my business.

The anti-choicers who feel entitled to other people's babies are the very worst type. They feel like it's other women's duty to go through with pregnancy so they can the baby they've always wanted. They don't just want to make women slaves to the fetus; they want to make them their own slaves. Infertility can be hard, but that doesn't mean you should force other women to have babies for you. I have nothing but contempt for these selfish people.

[BelieveinScience]

I disagree. I don't think it's about stealing a baby they have rights to have. I think it's about feeling the harsh reality of life being very unfair.

I think it's all about the heart wrenching reality that you can't have something you really, really want and other people get it so easy and don't want anything to do with it. When all you want to do is be pregnant, I imagine hearing others abort theirs would probably make you feel that unfair reality of life and yes, a twinge of jealousy. "How come it happens so easy for you? You don't even want one and I want one so bad and you just throw it away. I don't understand why you'd do that. You don't realize how lucky you are to be able to get pregnant. It's what I want more than anything and can't have it. Why do you get it when you don't want and I can't have it." I don't think it's really fair to call people mean or illogical because of those feelings. I think many of us have felt similar feelings (not about abortion/pregnancy, but about other things) of really wanting something, being unable to have it and feeling unfair/jealous to those who have it and don't care about it. Emotions aren't always about logic, but they can be understandable. I feel for Didi who really wanted a baby, but can't have one. Infertility sucks.

Should I say I'm 100% pro-choice. My first post on here should tell you that. I admit that it would very difficult for me to have an abortion because I would fear not being able to get pregnant again and that it might be the only chance I have to have a child biologically. The reality of possibly being infertile does do that to you. I think it's very telling that Didi is infertile and pro-life. It actually makes more sense to me of why she is. I don't agree with her at all, but can see why she feels how she does.

I'm infertile and I agree with RandomScribbles. The other people with infertility I know they have this no one should have an abortion because I could take that baby attitude. And they actually get furious about it and act like that baby should be theirs. I feel like people with infertility issues don't get how hard it is for someone to give up a child for adoption. I can't remember the exact percentages but only a small percentage of people who say they're giving their baby up actually do it. Heck, my friend got pregnant as a teenager and was going to put her baby up but decided against in the long wrong. It's hard to do. Just because its "not fair' doesn't mean someone should go around dictating what other people do with their bodies. Nothing in life is fair. Is it fair that parents are losing their kids to things like cancer? Nope. People are homeless? Nope. It's life and life can be cruel. People shouldn't have their rights taken away just because someone sees it as "unfair"

[formergothardite]

Didi, I hope you are still reading this and the answer isn't to just never give your opinions. The answer, especially if you are going to vote to make your "heart issues" law, is to learn to provide logical, well thought out answers and if necessary, accept that what you believe isn't logical and that means it shouldn't be forced on the rest of the country. Most of the pro-lifers seem to just leave threads when the really tough questions get asked and I often wonder if it is because they have a fear that if they are forced to answer these questions they will also be forced to confront what being pro-life REALLY means. It isn't just save the babies, it is so much more than that.

[emmiedahl]

I briefly considered an abortion with my last pregnancy. I feel I had a moral right to entertain the idea, by anyone's reckoning. I had five miscarriages in the previous year, and each miscarriage was progressively worse. One almost killed me; I started hemorrhaging while alone in the house with small children. Luckily my husband had been messing around in the garage before leaving for work, and my young daughter ran out after him as he was leaving, screaming that mommy was on the floor and would not wake up and there was blood everywhere. In addition, I found out I was pregnant with the youngest at 4 months gestation, and I had been taking a medication which is highly contraindicated during pregnancy because of possible birth defects. My husband found out the same week that he had lost his job, and the economy was tanking so we did not have high hopes of another one surfacing in the near future. We knew that we were about to lose our house, our livelihood, our insurance, and oh, here's a pregnancy that might kill you.

I went so far as to talk to a rabbi, who told me it was a legal abortion in Jewish religious terms and encouraged me to preserve my health and sanity for the existing four children. I decided not to abort because it was already too late for an 'easy' abortion, and also because I wanted another baby so badly. It was a horrible pregnancy with gestational diabetes and every problem you can imagine. My doctor induced at 39 weeks because everything was going wrong and he felt it was too much stress on my body and my psyche. It was 5 months of hell and I would not wish it on my worst enemy. Bad enough that my husband, then a devout Catholic, went and had himself snipped because he could not bear to put me through this another time.

I went through it because I wanted that baby and I had a husband who would care for me and it. My younger sister moved in to help. My mother bought a lot of the layette. How many women have that kind of support? And still it was hard, and I would not wish it on anyone who does not willingly take it on.

[mirele]

I knew someone who was raped and who gave the baby up for adoption (this was in the early 80s). Her parents even offered to pay off the Catholic "home" where their daughter had lived for several months prior to birth, because my friend was absolutely distraught about giving up her baby. But my friend refused and went through with the adoption. She was, to be blunt, totally, absolutely and completely fucked over by what happened. She couldn't sleep through most nights because she was afraid of the dark after the rape. On her daughter's birthday, she was extremely depressed and drank to excess (even more than the average college student in Texas before the drinking age got raised to 21).

The last I heard of her, she had married a gay (in the closet) Southern Baptist preacher. It was pitched to me as a win-win (because I'm one of those people who will blurt out uncomfortable truths and they didn't want me doing that). She was married and got her parents off her case, he was married and made him look good to potential churches and they didn't have to have sex because she couldn't deal with having a guy touch her at all and well, he was gay. I still wonder how that turned out.

[starfish]

I read over this thready quickly, so I apologize if someone has brought it up ... but I heard that October Baby is meant to pitch "The Personhood Amendment" which would effectively ban birth control not to mention the very ebil morning after pill.

The Southern Baptists are heavily promoting this film and they are going off on the morning after pill, also.

How can they so obviously be focusing on the wrong problems in our society?

[formergothardite]

Maybe Didi can answer that question if she would ever come back to this thread.

[She Who Laughs]

I saw the movie and in my opinion I thought it spoke more about forgiveness than it did about abortion. Sure, the lead character was the product of a botched abortion, but I didn't feel like it really spoke that much about abortion or whether it was right or wrong or anything like that.

The theme was more about how this girl felt stuck and how she felt lied to by her parents and betrayed by them. In the end, she was able to move on in her life by letting go and forgiving her birth mother and by forgiving her parents for not telling her sooner. Not sure how it could be used to promote a personhood amendment or a morning after pill.

[Koala]

Maybe Didi can answer that question if she would ever come back to this thread.

Meh, I wouldn't count on it. According to her her beliefs are illogical and not easy to put into words. She also doesn't like to debate her beliefs...she just wants to enforce them on others. ;)

[starfish]

That's interesting that someone said it's about forgiveness, because I *heard* it's supposed to be about forgiveness, but that the theme that shines through is "shame".

Don't know, haven't seen it, probably won't. It looks like it was well-made though.

This is what I read about it:

This "pro-life" movie about an "abortion survivor" had what now looks like a premature birth on Oct. 28, opening in a few theaters in Mississippi and Alabama and at the Hollywood 20 Cinema in Bartlett, where it played three weeks. The October launch was intended to generate support for Mississippi's proposed "personhood" amendment, which stated that a "person" or "human being" is created at "the moment of fertilization" -- a premise that voters soundly rejected in the Nov. 8 general election.

[She Who Laughs]

I didn't really feel like it was about shame, just forgiveness. I thought it was very well-made, the acting was good and overall a very good drama.

[dairyfreelife]

I'm infertile and I agree with RandomScribbles. The other people with infertility I know they have this no one should have an abortion because I could take that baby attitude. And they actually get furious about it and act like that baby should be theirs. I feel like people with infertility issues don't get how hard it is for someone to give up a child for adoption. I can't remember the exact percentages but only a small percentage of people who say they're giving their baby up actually do it. Heck, my friend got pregnant as a teenager and was going to put her baby up but decided against in the long wrong. It's hard to do. Just because its "not fair' doesn't mean someone should go around dictating what other people do with their bodies. Nothing in life is fair. Is it fair that parents are losing their kids to things like cancer? Nope. People are homeless? Nope. It's life and life can be cruel. People shouldn't have their rights taken away just because someone sees it as "unfair"

I have a 50/50 chance of being infertile too, but felt that was unimportant to mention because it wasn't about me. I still disagree that basically everyone who's infertile feels that no one should have an abortion because they could have that baby. I've only come across the attitude by self-righteous Christian hypocrites who feel entitled. You don't have to be religious to be infertile or feel a stabbing pain of jealousy to hear someone abort a child and you can't have one and really, really want one. I think almost everyone is aware that life is unfair, but that doesn't mean that when it really, really hits you hard just how unfair it can be that you can't feel the emotion. I'm not claiming it's okay to dictate anything, just that I can see the feeling, the pain someone may feel and think about abortion. I've personally only ever come across what I stated above, the "you don't even want your baby so why couldn't it have been me instead who's pregnant" and not "you don't want your baby so birth it and give it to me" attitude. Not that people don't have that attitude because some certainly do, but I still see more of just a harsh reality of the unfairness of their circumstances. I know the feeling, though not related to abortion/infertility.

Parents who've lost their children to cancer or are homeless probably have bad thoughts of "why me? Why is this happening to me? Why do you get to keep your kid and you don't want it and it's healthy? Why do you get a nice house and everything handed to you and don't appreciate it and I have to live in my car/street/shelter?" They have even poorly wished their circumstances on someone they felt "more deserving" than they feel they are. When life deals you a hard blow, emotions are not always logical and sometimes someone coming in and sort of being them a slap in the face (not literally of course) is what it takes to snap them back to reality of what they are saying. That's all my point is and it's okay to get mad and feel frustrated and upset over things that aren't fair at all and don't make any sense and can't be understood sometimes. When emotions are high, we all think and say things that are not right and are just as unfair as our circumstances. Usually those emotions don't have anything to do with legislation and we don't even think about it.

I do think most anti-choicers aren't infertile though and just want to be arses who dictate the lives of women and even couples and aren't smart enough to see just how this could backfire on them.

Oh-made a mistake. It was EmmieJ not randomscribbles who said that. My bad. :oops:

[27randomscribbles]

I have a 50/50 chance of being infertile too, but felt that was unimportant to mention because it wasn't about me. I still disagree that basically everyone who's infertile feels that no one should have an abortion because they could have that baby. I've only come across the attitude by self-righteous Christian hypocrites who feel entitled. You don't have to be religious to be infertile or feel a stabbing pain of jealousy to hear someone abort a child and you can't have one and really, really want one. I think almost everyone is aware that life is unfair, but that doesn't mean that when it really, really hits you hard just how unfair it can be that you can't feel the emotion. I'm not claiming it's okay to dictate anything, just that I can see the feeling, the pain someone may feel and think about abortion. I've personally only ever come across what I stated above, the "you don't even want your baby so why couldn't it have been me instead who's pregnant" and not "you don't want your baby so birth it and give it to me" attitude. Not that people don't have that attitude because some certainly do, but I still see more of just a harsh reality of the unfairness of their circumstances. I know the feeling, though not related to abortion/infertility.

Parents who've lost their children to cancer or are homeless probably have bad thoughts of "why me? Why is this happening to me? Why do you get to keep your kid and you don't want it and it's healthy? Why do you get a nice house and everything handed to you and don't appreciate it and I have to live in my car/street/shelter?" They have even poorly wished their circumstances on someone they felt "more deserving" than they feel they are. When life deals you a hard blow, emotions are not always logical and sometimes someone coming in and sort of being them a slap in the face (not literally of course) is what it takes to snap them back to reality of what they are saying. That's all my point is and it's okay to get mad and feel frustrated and upset over things that aren't fair at all and don't make any sense and can't be understood sometimes. When emotions are high, we all think and say things that are not right and are just as unfair as our circumstances. Usually those emotions don't have anything to do with legislation and we don't even think about it.

I do think most anti-choicers aren't infertile though and just want to be arses who dictate the lives of women and even couples and aren't smart enough to see just how this could backfire on them.

Oh-made a mistake. It was EmmieJ not randomscribbles who said that. My bad. :oops:

It's ok! And even though I didn't say it, I agree in at least some part. While I do not believe all infertile, anti-choice people have the feeling that women who have abortions are "stealing" a child they could have, this idea does have merit, I believe. I've volunteered at abortion clinics as well as counter-protested anti-choice exhibitions at my university. I've heard (and seen on blog comments to women who've had abortions) infertile (and even those who aren't) tell these women they shouldn't (or shouldn't have already) have an abortion because there are oh so many families waiting to adopt babies. I've even heard women say they'd adopt the baby themselves if the woman just wouldn't have an abortion. In fact, I've even had an anti-choicer yell that at ME when I was going in to Planned Parenthood to get my pills (they never seem to realize that PP does other things besides abortions).

My point is, while it may not be all or even most...I do feel that this idea that there are worthy parents waiting to adopt a baby does come into play. And honestly, I don't get it. If I get pregnant, I want an abortion. It's not that I just don't want to go through pregnancy (although that's part of it), it's that I'm not ready for a child right now. And if I have a child, they are my child and I won't just give them to someone else. I am not a breeder. If I make a mistake and get pregnant I'm not obligated to go through pregnancy to give you MY child. My experience as an adoptee and knowing my bio-mom does color my views here, but I think any pro-choicer would agree that no woman should feel obligated to go through pregnancy in order to give someone a child. So I don't get why all these anti-choicers think that if they offer to adopt a baby (of a woman intending to have an abortion) these women will just automatically change their minds!

Then again, I'm pro-choice and believe all women have the right to make choices about their children, potential children, and any and all reproductive decisions they deal with. Anti-choicers don't.

[PBrooke]

I didn't really feel like it was about shame, just forgiveness. I thought it was very well-made, the acting was good and overall a very good drama.

While it might actually be more about forgiveness, the fundies who are promoting it on their blogs that I've seen are calling it "An important pro-choice movie" and things along those lines. They certainly don't seem to be seeing the forgiveness angle so much as the abortion angle.

[dairyfreelife]

It's ok! And even though I didn't say it, I agree in at least some part. While I do not believe all infertile, anti-choice people have the feeling that women who have abortions are "stealing" a child they could have, this idea does have merit, I believe. I've volunteered at abortion clinics as well as counter-protested anti-choice exhibitions at my university. I've heard (and seen on blog comments to women who've had abortions) infertile (and even those who aren't) tell these women they shouldn't (or shouldn't have already) have an abortion because there are oh so many families waiting to adopt babies. I've even heard women say they'd adopt the baby themselves if the woman just wouldn't have an abortion. In fact, I've even had an anti-choicer yell that at ME when I was going in to Planned Parenthood to get my pills (they never seem to realize that PP does other things besides abortions).

My point is, while it may not be all or even most...I do feel that this idea that there are worthy parents waiting to adopt a baby does come into play. And honestly, I don't get it. If I get pregnant, I want an abortion. It's not that I just don't want to go through pregnancy (although that's part of it), it's that I'm not ready for a child right now. And if I have a child, they are my child and I won't just give them to someone else. I am not a breeder. If I make a mistake and get pregnant I'm not obligated to go through pregnancy to give you MY child. My experience as an adoptee and knowing my bio-mom does color my views here, but I think any pro-choicer would agree that no woman should feel obligated to go through pregnancy in order to give someone a child. So I don't get why all these anti-choicers think that if they offer to adopt a baby (of a woman intending to have an abortion) these women will just automatically change their minds!

Then again, I'm pro-choice and believe all women have the right to make choices about their children, potential children, and any and all reproductive decisions they deal with. Anti-choicers don't.

Oh, I don't disagree that some say that, but it does tend to be the self-righteous Christians who do this more than any one, even those who aren't infertile have that attitude. If they want a child, there are many available for adoption via foster care and even internationally. Of course many of those children aren't newborns and may have serious health problems. That's the thing that I can't get an answer from when I ask is that if I got pregnant any time soon because of my meds I am taking, I have a high risk of having a child who'll have birth defects which could include the lungs and heart. I would consider aborting because I don't think it's fair to the child to be born with issues because of me. If I birth a child, I'm not going "giving it" to anyone. It's my child and it's not at all selfish of me to keep it. It doesn't belong to anyone else except me and the child's father. If I am unable to care for it at some point after that, I have relatives who would take the child gladly. So, no, I would not change my mind on abortion due to possible health issues of the potential child in question to birth it to give to someone else to raise. Again, there are available children out there that don't have homes. I believe there are tens of thousands in the US alone and millions worldwide in need so if someone wants one, they can shovel out some cash or get certified as a foster parent and bring a child already without a home into one.

I can see the emotional feeling that someone may think about "why not me instead when I'm the one who wants it and you don't", but I'm 100% pro-choice and will never consider (and I may be infertile, but I've never tried to get pregnant so don't know for sure) telling anyone to carry a child to term and especially not for someone else. Those same people who say "don't abort, I'll take it" probably won't if they find it the child is addicted to drugs or has FAE/FAS or other serious problems and I bet some wouldn't take it if the child in question wasn't a pure "white" baby.

I still say the movie is propaganda. The sponsors say it all. I won't see it and am glad no local theatres are showing it. Makes me love my state more and more. They haven't done any anti-choice bull bills or anti-pill and Catholic places aren't crying over it either here and they aren't showing this film. :D

I can't stay logged on long enough to fix the original quote. When I try to go back, it logs me off for some reason. I've been having lots of issues with this. I post once and get kicked off. But yeah, EmmieJ's quote. Credit where credit is due.

[thoughtful]

You said it all so nicely. Didi, you admit that your beliefs are illogical, that they are heart beliefs, do you want other people to enforce their illogical, heart beliefs on you? And are you beginning to see why the blood/bone marrow/organ donation is a valid comparison?

Thanks for the compliment! I was mostly reiterating what other brilliant folks here have said.

I can't imagine that Didi would allow the government to send strangers to live in her house or take her belongings, let alone use her body as they please. Taking away choice would be very much like that.

I don't know how to persuade people who take the simplistic "it's a child from the moment of conception, so you are murdering a child" attitude. Life and biology are so much more complex than that, and it is such a childlike, black-and-white way of looking at things.

[Guest Anonymous]

I didn't really feel like it was about shame, just forgiveness. I thought it was very well-made, the acting was good and overall a very good drama.

Who was being forgiven - was it the doctor who fouled up the abortion? Because otherwise, who was there that did anything wrong?

Was the acting better than Courageous and Fireproof?

[ilovetchotchkes]

In my minor struggles with infertility, some 18+ month with kid #1.... If one of my friends decided they wanted an abortion, I would be thinking "dude, why not ME, they don't want it, why did they get pregnant when I want a kid and they don't that's SO SCREWED UP" but I would NEVER EVER in a million years demand that they give it to me nor would I expect it or even entertain that thought. Why? because I know people who have adopted and i've known people who have given up babies and its HARD. I would NEVER ask that of a friend unless they explicitly offered unprompted.

Really, the hardest was the seeing the announcements on facebook of happy pregnancies.

[She Who Laughs]

Who was being forgiven - was it the doctor who fouled up the abortion? Because otherwise, who was there that did anything wrong?

Was the acting better than Courageous and Fireproof?

While you might not see what the mom did as anything wrong, I guess if I was the product of a botched abortion that made my life complicated with multiple health problems (and surgeries) and that caused pain, suffering and death for my twin brother, I think I would also carry a lot of anger and hurt over my birth mother trying to get rid of me. So in that case I can see why there needed to be forgiveness toward the birth mother. Even though the birth mother didn't intend for her actions to cause suffering and pain, they did in fact cause those things so that's why there would need to be forgiveness.

Yes, the acting was better than Courageous and Fireproof. It was better than a lot of hollywood movies I've seen.

[jericho]

Weekend actuals are out. October Baby was #8. #3 in screen average.

http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

[dairyfreelife]

Weekend actuals are out. October Baby was #8. #3 in screen average.

http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

It only grossed 1.7M and was only shown in 390 theatres. Where do you see no. 3 in screen average on the charts? I see not available numbers.

[Minerva]

While you might not see what the mom did as anything wrong, I guess if I was the product of a botched abortion that made my life complicated with multiple health problems (and surgeries) and that caused pain, suffering and death for my twin brother, I think I would also carry a lot of anger and hurt over my birth mother trying to get rid of me. So in that case I can see why there needed to be forgiveness toward the birth mother. Even though the birth mother didn't intend for her actions to cause suffering and pain, they did in fact cause those things so that's why there would need to be forgiveness.

Yes, the acting was better than Courageous and Fireproof. It was better than a lot of hollywood movies I've seen.

By that logic, it's my parents' fault that the surgeon fucked up my jaw removing my wisdom teeth. Because, you know, it's them who decided if, when and where I was going to have them removed. Forget that it was the surgeon's job to do it right.

[BelieveinScience]

I have a 50/50 chance of being infertile too, but felt that was unimportant to mention because it wasn't about me. I still disagree that basically everyone who's infertile feels that no one should have an abortion because they could have that baby. I've only come across the attitude by self-righteous Christian hypocrites who feel entitled. You don't have to be religious to be infertile or feel a stabbing pain of jealousy to hear someone abort a child and you can't have one and really, really want one. I think almost everyone is aware that life is unfair, but that doesn't mean that when it really, really hits you hard just how unfair it can be that you can't feel the emotion. I'm not claiming it's okay to dictate anything, just that I can see the feeling, the pain someone may feel and think about abortion. I've personally only ever come across what I stated above, the "you don't even want your baby so why couldn't it have been me instead who's pregnant" and not "you don't want your baby so birth it and give it to me" attitude. Not that people don't have that attitude because some certainly do, but I still see more of just a harsh reality of the unfairness of their circumstances. I know the feeling, though not related to abortion/infertility.

Parents who've lost their children to cancer or are homeless probably have bad thoughts of "why me? Why is this happening to me? Why do you get to keep your kid and you don't want it and it's healthy? Why do you get a nice house and everything handed to you and don't appreciate it and I have to live in my car/street/shelter?" They have even poorly wished their circumstances on someone they felt "more deserving" than they feel they are. When life deals you a hard blow, emotions are not always logical and sometimes someone coming in and sort of being them a slap in the face (not literally of course) is what it takes to snap them back to reality of what they are saying. That's all my point is and it's okay to get mad and feel frustrated and upset over things that aren't fair at all and don't make any sense and can't be understood sometimes. When emotions are high, we all think and say things that are not right and are just as unfair as our circumstances. Usually those emotions don't have anything to do with legislation and we don't even think about it.

I do think most anti-choicers aren't infertile though and just want to be arses who dictate the lives of women and even couples and aren't smart enough to see just how this could backfire on them.

Oh-made a mistake. It was EmmieJ not randomscribbles who said that. My bad. :oops:

Yeah these infertiles are Christians so that explains a lot. I don't think people should dictate what another person does to their body and as long as the baby needs the moms nutrients to survive is a part of the mom, in my opinion. I can see tattoos and piercings becoming illegal at some point if this anti abortion stuff passes (which I hope never does). Its a slippery slope.

[She Who Laughs]

By that logic, it's my parents' fault that the surgeon fucked up my jaw removing my wisdom teeth. Because, you know, it's them who decided if, when and where I was going to have them removed. Forget that it was the surgeon's job to do it right.

Yeah, because abortion and wisdom teeth removal are exactly the same thing, right.