October Baby

[fundiefan]

Wow... there have been a lot of replies!

My mother chose not to kill her baby. That is true. I would be anti-murder even if I hadn't had that as part of my history. I am sorry if that is too blunt - I have been trying really hard to not be offensive on here, but y'all are saying you are against the term pro-life, but your "choice" is either to let a baby live or kill a baby. So... how is pro-life not an apt term? We don't saddle y'all with pro-death or anti-life. I get that you believe a woman should have the choice whether to let the baby grow to term and be born - I don't think that any human being should have the choice to kill another human being (except in self-defense), but I understand more of pro-choice individuals reasoning then I used to. And, I am not against terminating as pregnancy if it's a case where the mother and baby will DIE if you don't or cases like "tubal pregnancies" where, well again the mother and baby would die, but that one for me is even more cut and dry - there has never been a case of a tubal pregnancy leading to a live birth.

I believe if we just outlawed abortion today it would lead to horrible things. Women are still going to seek abortions even if it is illegal and without regulation there will be a lot more deaths of women and such. I do however think there should be more regulation - I am torn over the sonogram thing. (I live in VA, so I have been processing this for a bit now.) Part of me feels like it's an invasion of a woman's "rights" since right now they DO have the right to an abortion, but on the other hand I feel like if someone is making the decision to end their pregnancy it is best for them to fully understand that they ARE killing a baby. It's a hard road.

Something that people do not understand is that not everyone believes life begins at conception. So, when women choose abortion, often/sometimes/whatever they do not see it as 'murdering their baby' or killing or taking a life. I know it's hard to understand something you do not believe - I'm right there in many situations. But, I also accept that just because I don't believe it doesn't mean everyone else is evil or wrong.

Simply using the words 'murder the baby' or 'killing' or even 'baby' tags a woman who aborts with a lack of morals and character.

I, personally, do not believe life begins at conception. I do not believe an abortion at 8 weeks is 'murdering a human being'. No matter anyone else's word choice or values, what one believe is what guides his/her choices and decisions.

[Didi]

no, i am not, that is part of why i WOULDNT want her to have an abortion done to her.

i did a long time ago, but i'll be honest i do not recall what she said in it.

I am not 1,000,000% sure life begins at conception, but i darn well know it's a life once you know you're pregnant...

[PBrooke]

Okay, Didi, I have thankfully never been in a situation where I would need to make that very difficult decision (and I don't think I have the words to express how difficult that decision is for some). Hopefully I never will be in that situation, as I'm married and we want a child (though, I'm not immune - circumstances like rape could happen to anyone).

However, I am staunchly pro-choice. Not because of the decision I would make, but because it's not my place to make that decision for others. To me, knowing what I would do is a completely separate issue from what should be legislated for everyone. That is why it is NOT pro-life vs pro-abortion. I mean, people get riled up because the current administration wants schools to serve healthier lunches and that's "The government telling us what to do" but it's ok for them to make life-and-death decisions, or ones that could result in severe trauma?

[BelieveinScience]

I believe if we just outlawed abortion today it would lead to horrible things. Women are still going to seek abortions even if it is illegal and without regulation there will be a lot more deaths of women and such. I do however think there should be more regulation - I am torn over the sonogram thing. (I live in VA, so I have been processing this for a bit now.) Part of me feels like it's an invasion of a woman's "rights" since right now they DO have the right to an abortion, but on the other hand I feel like if someone is making the decision to end their pregnancy it is best for them to fully understand that they ARE killing a baby. It's a hard road.

I'm sorry but it's not a baby. It's a clump cells who have the potential to become a life. It also has the potential to be miscarried. Also, the assumption that people who go in for abortions aren't aware of what they are doing is just ugh. I doubt the majority of women going in for abortions didn't think out their process and go through their options. Abortion usually isn't a fast decision.

[27randomscribbles]

Part of me feels like it's an invasion of a woman's "rights" since right now they DO have the right to an abortion, but on the other hand I feel like if someone is making the decision to end their pregnancy it is best for them to fully understand that they ARE killing a baby.

Great. Another one who is completely illogical. So abortion is murder...killing a baby. But it shouldn't necessarily be legal. Then you don't really believe it is murder for god's sake!!! Otherwise abortion would have the same punishment as the murder of a three-year-old in their minds. Logic fail.

And my mother had me. She was raped and didn't have a choice to have an abortion because her family was religious. She didn't have the choice to keep me either, unfortunately for her she had to give me to a "more deserving" family.

And you know what? Despite being raised religious and super pro-life (anti-choice)...I'm pro-choice now! As pro-choice as it gets. I just don't get these "I wasn't aborted so I'm pro-life". Well I wasn't aborted (despite being the product of rape) and I'm still fucking pro-choice. CHOICE. Ok I'm gonna stop before I get super pissy...I've been working all day and anti-choicers piss me the hell off.

And this looks like it'll be a long thread. Where's that pint of ice cream....

[Didi]

FundieFan - that makes sense... and i didn't mean my "i know darn well..." to mean that others who disagree are stupid.

so, when would you feel it's a baby/alive? when it has a heartbeat? fingers? like, i don't mean that in a snarky way - it's something i think about a LOT because i don't actually believe that most of the women in america are for killing babies, but it's very hard for me to understand how others don't view it as a life, so i ask - when is it a baby to you? are you ok with "partial birth abortions" or 3rd trimester?

[formergothardite]

What if the abortion was less traumatic for her than having to go through giving birth, something that can traumatize adults who haven't be sexually abused and raped?

[Minerva]

One woman claims she hates the sound of flames due to her botched saline abortion. IDK but how would someone remember the sound of her attempted abortion?

Why would it sound like flames?????

[Didi]

27RS - I DO think it should be illegal, sorry if that wasn't clear. My point was I don't believe we can just make it illegal tomorrow because that wouldn't work. More people would get hurt as a result of the decision. I guess in "didi-land/perfect world" we would start to regulate it more and more and eventually it would only be permissable in cases where the mother's life was in danger?

[formergothardite]

Once it was illegal would you put any mothers who had abortions in jail for murder?

[Didi]

What if the abortion was less traumatic for her than having to go through giving birth, something that can traumatize adults who haven't be sexually abused and raped?

If that was the case it would take a lot of help, but because I believe it is a human being I am never going to suggest that my child murder her baby just because someone did horrible things to her. I would not be opposed to shooting the man who did that to my kid - but he made a choice to hurt a child.

I get what you are saying - IF you don't believe it is a baby/life then it doesn't make sense to force a child to go through pregnancy and birth just for moral or religious reasons.

But I DO believe it's a baby/life.

[PBrooke]

27RS - I DO think it should be illegal, sorry if that wasn't clear. My point was I don't believe we can just make it illegal tomorrow because that wouldn't work. More people would get hurt as a result of the decision. I guess in "didi-land/perfect world" we would start to regulate it more and more and eventually it would only be permissable in cases where the mother's life was in danger?

[27randomscribbles]

27RS - I DO think it should be illegal, sorry if that wasn't clear. My point was I don't believe we can just make it illegal tomorrow because that wouldn't work. More people would get hurt as a result of the decision. I guess in "didi-land/perfect world" we would start to regulate it more and more and eventually it would only be permissable in cases where the mother's life was in danger?

You still don't make sense. If abortion were the same as murdering a three year old in your mind, you wouldn't simply want to regulate it. You'd be raising hell to make it immediately illegal and carry a life sentence in prison. That would be logical. Still fucked up, in my opinion, but at least logical.

[27randomscribbles]

This image is awesome. I also want popcorn now instead of ice cream. :)

[formergothardite]

If that was the case it would take a lot of help, but because I believe it is a human being I am never going to suggest that my child murder her baby just because someone did horrible things to her. I would not be opposed to shooting the man who did that to my kid - but he made a choice to hurt a child.

I get what you are saying - IF you don't believe it is a baby/life then it doesn't make sense to force a child to go through pregnancy and birth just for moral or religious reasons.

But I DO believe it's a baby/life.

And you are making the choice to hurt her more.

[formergothardite]

Does anyone have the link to treemom's story? She had a third trimester abortion.

[fundiefan]

FundieFan - that makes sense... and i didn't mean my "i know darn well..." to mean that others who disagree are stupid.

so, when would you feel it's a baby/alive? when it has a heartbeat? fingers? like, i don't mean that in a snarky way - it's something i think about a LOT because i don't actually believe that most of the women in america are for killing babies, but it's very hard for me to understand how others don't view it as a life, so i ask - when is it a baby to you? are you ok with "partial birth abortions" or 3rd trimester?

I don't know the answer to that. I may never know. Unless I am in the position, I can't say anything. I have generally assumed viability, but I also know that is getting earlier and earlier in gestation with medical technology. I also know I don't have to come up with some hard and fast rule on that. I'm not in a position for that to be necessary and I could make myself crazy trying to figure out 'when life begins'. I will never argue, discuss or debate that because I don't know, and I have no problem saying I don't know.

Each individual, however, has the right to make their own decisions about their bodies and their lives, regardless of when they believe life begins. Talk to anyone who has had an abortion then later had wanted children. They viewed those pregnancies entirely differently. That's how the mind works and it's part of being human. Also, not all abortions are because of unintended pregnancies. Many are for health reasons; a non viable fetus, risk to the mother. That is a case of a person's individual conscience, not whether the fetus is a life or not. Quality of life is not an invalid argument. Health is not an invalid reason to abort.

The point is that abortion is not a black and white issue. It's every shade of gray and it changes constantly.

As someone else mentioned, look for Treemom's story here. Read it and consider it, completely. Not just your position, but the human beings involved in it.

[Didi]

I need to get off of here and make dinner, but the last Q I saw was "Once it was illegal would you put women who got abortions in jail for murder?"

It would really depend on the situation. to me it's like the teenagers who give birth in a bathroom and drop the baby in a trashcan. I don't think they can be held accountable for their actions because a thinking person wouldn't leave their baby to die. I don't think the majority of women get abortions just because. (I know a woman who had like 6 abortions because she and her boyfriend hated condoms and the pill made her sick, so she just got abortions when she would get pregnant. Miraculously later in life she was able to have like 6 more children, but she is one of the few I know of who weren't desperate when they chose abortion.) I think most women are desperate either financially or they don't feel able to care for the child or fear of what their families/boyfriend/whatever will say, maybe like you said it was rape or incest (which IS rape, unless it's siblings and that's just gross :-p)

So, it's not a easy "Yes I would put them in jail.", especially because for the past 40ish years it's been VERY loudly proclaimed in the US that women have that right and no one can take it away and it's a mass of cells etc etc etc. So to me abortion in practice and the state of mine most women are in is very different then someone who kills another person in cold-blood.

I feel like I am not making any sense. I am sorry I am not clearer.

I do not think abortion should ever be an option in a healthy pregnancy, but for anyone who has had an abortion I don't think of you as a horrible person or a murderess - it's more like I think you didn't know and it's sad?

[27randomscribbles]

it's something i think about a LOT because i don't actually believe that most of the women in america are for killing babies

Considering almost 1 in 3 (30% of) women will have an abortion before they are 45...I guess quite a few are. So I guess 30% of women should be thrown in prison for life if you had your dream of abortion being illegal and considered murder? That's a hell of a lot of women.

(source: Guttmacher Institute)

[formergothardite]

I need to get off of here and make dinner, but the last Q I saw was "Once it was illegal would you put women who got abortions in jail for murder?"

It would really depend on the situation. to me it's like the teenagers who give birth in a bathroom and drop the baby in a trashcan. I don't think they can be held accountable for their actions because a thinking person wouldn't leave their baby to die. I don't think the majority of women get abortions just because. (I know a woman who had like 6 abortions because she and her boyfriend hated condoms and the pill made her sick, so she just got abortions when she would get pregnant. Miraculously later in life she was able to have like 6 more children, but she is one of the few I know of who weren't desperate when they chose abortion.) I think most women are desperate either financially or they don't feel able to care for the child or fear of what their families/boyfriend/whatever will say, maybe like you said it was rape or incest (which IS rape, unless it's siblings and that's just gross :-p)

So, it's not a easy "Yes I would put them in jail.", especially because for the past 40ish years it's been VERY loudly proclaimed in the US that women have that right and no one can take it away and it's a mass of cells etc etc etc. So to me abortion in practice and the state of mine most women are in is very different then someone who kills another person in cold-blood.

I feel like I am not making any sense. I am sorry I am not clearer.

I do not think abortion should ever be an option in a healthy pregnancy, but for anyone who has had an abortion I don't think of you as a horrible person or a murderess - it's more like I think you didn't know and it's sad?

So if a mentally ill mother killed her under age of 10 children because she didn't believe they were really people until they turned 10, would you also advocate that she not be charged, that nothing happen to her? Her state of mind is different than someone who kills someone in cold blood and she didn't know what she did.

I mean, basically you are saying women who have abortions are not mentally able to know what they are doing.

[27randomscribbles]

I do not think abortion should ever be an option in a healthy pregnancy, but for anyone who has had an abortion I don't think of you as a horrible person or a murderess - it's more like I think you didn't know and it's sad?

So if someone you knew killed their three year old you'd just think they didn't know and be sad? What if they thought they were doing the "right thing" or someone told them to do it? I mean, if you think abortion is murdering a baby there should be no difference, right?

[Third]

A rape victim should be presented with all the options without bias and be allowed and supported in whatever choice she makes. Even a child victim.

Being sedated for a vaginal exam at 10 - that's really awesome.

I could see a rape victim hiding inside her head following a forced birth of her rapist's baby and never coming back.

I do feel it's a baby. A human child. I also can pick between which life is more important. The sentient person who has friends and family and experiences and a life outside of existing gets first dibs.

[bananacat]

Didi,

Do you think that miscarriages are as tragic as cancer and heart disease? When half of all fertilized eggs miscarry without ever implanting, what do you think of that? If that fertilized egg is the same as a human being, then it's the biggest cause of death ever. And don't give me any of that nonsense about God's will, because you could just as easily say that about cancer and heart disease.

So if this is a tragedy, there aren't any big movements or charities to solve the leading cause of death. Why aren't you advocating for a cure? Is it possible that you truly don't think of it as the same thing as an actual baby?

Also, you're naive. Embryos aren't babies. You're just plain wrong about that. You've likely been fed outright lies and you've swallowed them whole because you want to believe. Those pictures that propagandists show you aren't actually embryos and fetuses that are involved in abortions. You can go on living in your little bubble of stupidity and believe whatever you want, but stop trying to drag us into it. Most of us are a little more informed about this issue.

[emmiedahl]

FundieFan - that makes sense... and i didn't mean my "i know darn well..." to mean that others who disagree are stupid.

so, when would you feel it's a baby/alive? when it has a heartbeat? fingers? like, i don't mean that in a snarky way - it's something i think about a LOT because i don't actually believe that most of the women in america are for killing babies, but it's very hard for me to understand how others don't view it as a life, so i ask - when is it a baby to you? are you ok with "partial birth abortions" or 3rd trimester?

I totally had this discussion with Tea Baggers on FB this week.

In what situation, outside of pregnancy, is it even a little bit okay to mandate that one person give up their bodily autonomy to give 24/7 life support to another (fetus? being? baby? human? whatever you want to call it)? The question is not when does life begin, but rather "when should a woman's bodily autonomy be sacrificed for someone else?"

If someone is anti-death penalty, anti-war, pro-social services, pro-socialized medicine, then you can call yourself pro-life. imo.

For the latest anti-choice trolls to crawl out of the woodwork: Have you given blood lately? Are you on donor registries for bone marrow, kidneys and other body parts? Do you support the government mandating that you give blood and organs to people who need them?

[Minerva]

FundieFan - that makes sense... and i didn't mean my "i know darn well..." to mean that others who disagree are stupid.

so, when would you feel it's a baby/alive? when it has a heartbeat? fingers? like, i don't mean that in a snarky way - it's something i think about a LOT because i don't actually believe that most of the women in america are for killing babies, but it's very hard for me to understand how others don't view it as a life, so i ask - when is it a baby to you? are you ok with "partial birth abortions" or 3rd trimester?

I know this isn't directed at me, but here goes. I don't think anyone is denying that the products of human reproductive systems - from sperm and eggs, to embryos, to fetuses - are alive. It's just that most people don't think that because something is alive means it's wrong to kill it. I'm fairly certain you don't think that either. We've all got criteria for when it becomes wrong to kill something. For you and many others, I assume that encompasses humans at any stage of development past that of zygote. For me, and many other pro-choicers, that would encompass anything capable of consciousness, and exclude anything not capable of consciousness (many would restrict that to anything human and capable of consciousness, but not me). I'm sure you've got your reasons for yours, but my line-drawing makes sense from a rights-based perspective: When you grant rights to things that are not sentient, not only does it not benefit anyone, but it almost always limits what those who are sentient can do. Meanwhile, granting rights to those who are sentient does benefit someone - it benefits them.

I'll also say that whether or not someone calls a fetus a baby is irrelevant to the debate. It is semantics. Calling a fetus a baby doesn't make it the same thing as the thinking, feeling human being that the law defines as a baby. Consider this: a lot of women having abortions, and being perfectly comfortable with their decision, refer to their fetus as a baby. So I don't think the word has the same significance for everyone as it does for you.

"Partial birth abortion" is a slang term for a procedure that is used for a large portion of 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions (yes, even today) because it is the safest method. As someone who ascribes dignity to all fetuses, I don't think you should be invoking it as the worst, given that its alternative is removing the fetus in several pieces. As for 3rd trimester abortions, I am glad we live in a world where they are available, and I am also glad we live in countries where their availability is limited to when there is something dangerously or gruesomely wrong with the pregnancy. And I am glad that in those restricted cases, we have the technology to do it humanely. Because the consensus in the medical world is that consciousness and pain perception do become possible at some point in the 3rd trimester, and not before that.

ETA nevermind, I've deleted my addition and will repost it in a new comment since so many people commented while I was slowly composing my ETA.