Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[patsymae]

On 6/13/2022 at 10:59 AM, Giraffe said:

Why do people think Anna might abandon her kids to the senior Duggars? To me that seems like quite a leap, even though she’s clearly still on team Josh.

Anna wants Josh and JB and Meech want control of all the grandchildren. I don't think it would be that hard for them to convince her that her place is offering support to her headship but the best thing for the children (and like a good wife suffers for her headship, a good mother suffers for her children) would be to stay in the only home they've ever known with the people they've been with every day since Christ was a midshipman. It's just a possibility that I see as likely, but maybe she wouldn't go for it.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 6/15/2022 at 12:06 PM, Cam said:

 

One thing I love about an iPad is the feature of highlighting a word and clicking “Look Up” to instantly get the word  definitions. I use it often. I did it with dissociation and would definitely say this is Anna’s approach:

 

 

 

I’m not sure I comprehend the cognitive dissonance term completely, but from what I grasp about it, instead of detachment (dissociation), you are holding two completely different sets of beliefs. So in Anna’s case, if she were thinking, “I know my husband is guilty of the heinous crime of csam possession but still, I think he’s such a wonderful person.” that would be cognitive dissonance. At this point, I think Anna clings to the fallacy that Josh is innocent, so she’s not wrestling with two incompatible thoughts.

I can speak to my own relationship with dissociation. I use it to cope if I’m overwhelmed, usually by trauma triggers.

As a kid I both knew and didn’t know my parents were abusive. I understood I needed to protect my siblings and friends from my parents but at the same point I also thought their behavior was normal and happened because I was bad. The cost of seeing my primary caregivers for the evil, narcissistic abusers they were was too high because there was no way to escape due to me being a child. Even now as an adult it’s taken me years to Wade through the gaslighting, dissociation, cognitive dissonance, shame, and mental illness. 

[EmCatlyn]

15 hours ago, Cam said:

Emcatlyn said: “…we assume that Jill was the first sister to tell their parents when she caught him fondling her, and that she may have been the person Joy turned to when Josh molested her.”

My question was not about Jill’s age, but about whether Joy at age 5 was old enough to comprehend and verbalize the abuse of what happened to her to another sibling. You’re only speculating that “Jill probably witnessed it.” We do not know that. 
 

I don’t think Joy was able to comprehend and verbalize it.  We have seen what she said in the Police Report, and it was just vague about Josh touching her under her skirt.

I don’t think all the kids were present in the room, and I don’t think anyone saw anything.  (Spoiler discusses what can happen and not be seen.)

Spoiler

If you are wearing a full skirt and sitting on someone’s knee, it is not hard for him to seem to be “readjusting” you on his lap and while doing so touch whatever he can reach under the skirt with no one else being the wiser.  

All the narratives agree that Joy jumped up and ran out of the room.  It is also agreed that she went to an older sibling.   We used to speculate it might have been Jana, but with Jill being Joy’s sister-mom and Jill being labeled by Josh (at her own wedding, I believe) as a snitch, it was probably Jill.

Jill’s account in the police report was that she had woken up and caught Josh touching her or messing with her blanket or both.

I suspect that Jill, Jessa and Jinger may have been somewhat “coached” before the police report so that they each reported only one instance when actually Josh told Bobye that there were several.  Jinger was probably the most traumatized at the time of the police report (you can read how she is almost inarticulate).  Joy’s testimony in the police report is fairly innocent, as if whatever trauma she had has been pushed back, in part because she didn’t understand what happened.

FWIW, My interpretation is that Jessa was probably the least aware of the molestation, either because she was the soundest sleeper or because Josh had less access to her. (She may have slept on a bunkbed on the far side of the room, for example.)  Jinger was able to recognize the inappropriateness of Josh’s behavior in the laundry room, and probably to feel it was her fault in some way, but she was not able to describe/articulate what exactly he did.

Jill was in the position of having heard whatever Joy reported (even if she wasn’t the one Joy turned to initially, as the “sister mom” she would have heard) and also know what Josh had done to her. 

However, I am sure that both Jill and Joy (and Jessa, and Jinger) were told by their parents to put it out of their minds, that Josh was just too curious about girls, etc.  There was no way for them to process it differently, and it is probable that Joy forgot all about it between the police report and when In Touch brought it out.

Anyway, I agree that Joy probably had no idea what Josh had done to her until after Bobye’s initial deposition came out.  I am very glad that Austin clearly supported her through this difficult period.  I think Jill knew more, but still she wanted to hear the whole of what Bobye had to say.  It appears that Bobye and Jill and the other older girls had a good relationship, and I hope that they have gone to Bobye for more details.

(Note that I don’t think Bobye is to be relied on for what she and Jim Holt said or did, she tends to minimize anything they could be criticized for.  But I think she can be trusted by the girls to tell them somethings that really happened that their parents concealed.  According to an interview of Bobye on the SoJo Podcast, the girls invited the Holts to their weddings, but JB or Michelle phoned them and asked them not to come.)

This is a long post even for me, but there was a lot to cover. 

Oh, as for Derrick, I can’t imagine why JB would have told him (or his father, had he been living) that Jill had been molested by her brother.  Jill may have been afraid to tell him, too.  In those circles, the girl may be viewed as “spoiled” even if it isn’t in any way her fault. 

 

 

[neuroticcat]

7 hours ago, backyard sylph said:

I feel like while I was growing up there was always someone around being a "pest" in that way, a friend's brother, a boy in gym glass, a boy on the schoolbus, an art teacher. Like absolutely the Duggars and others were wrong to say it's normal in families, but every single woman I know, at least over a certain age, has been touched wrongly by a few jerks who were just in proximity for one reason or another. Women my mom's age just expected it in their workplaces. 

Yup. Some of it is culture and some of it is the insidious nature of abuse. I mean, at 17, I thought the creepy 30 year old giving me shoulder rubs and cornering me for conversation “liked” me in the same way a boy in my class did. Only with the perspective of an adult can I name that grooming behavior. But is it OK for the 17 year old boy in youth group to give the girls unsolicited massages? We normalize those kind of behaviors for boys and the niceness/tolerance of girls - no wonder it’s endemic.
 

Things have gotten better than my teenage years - education on consent and the metoo movement have been amazing helps. I for sure feel more equipped to teach my own kids about consent and saying no, but, yeah, I think we all have these stories with varying abilities to name them as abuse or harassment.

And also there’s the unfolding realization of abuse. Most survivors don’t come out with a clear and final statement. The Duggar girls could have thought they were being truthful to their understanding of the time (though my guess is they were directly or indirectly told what to say) and gradually have come to realize the reality of what happened. And they could be all at different places in the process. 

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

A youth pastor at Christian school chapel once gave an entire sermon once about the great love people in Jesus’ time had for fresh grape juice and that’s why he turned the water into grape juice at the wedding at Cana. According to him, people usually didn’t get fresh grape juice at celebrations which is why that miracle got the party started. 

I just love these people who claim to get their religion from the Bible and then invent things that are not in the Bible. 

When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine. John 2:3 KJV

That’s the hallowed KJV, folks and it says “wine” and the word for “wine” in Greek is not the same as “grape juice” nor is it “grape juice” in Aramaic, Hebrew or Latin.

Read the darn thing and you know it isn’t grape juice.   If you claim to follow the Bible, at least read it.

[louisa05]

7 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I just love these people who claim to get their religion from the Bible and then invent things that are not in the Bible. 

When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine. John 2:3 KJV

That’s the hallowed KJV, folks and it says “wine” and the word for “wine” in Greek is not the same as “grape juice” nor is it “grape juice” in Aramaic, Hebrew or Latin.

Read the darn thing and you know it isn’t grape juice.   If you claim to follow the Bible, at least read it.

They literally claim that wine meant grape juice in those times and that alcohol was invented later.  Then evil Catholics decided to claim that the grape juice was wine so they can get drunk at church. One principal there was convinced Catholics all get drunk on communion wine every week. 

[Alisamer]

35 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

They literally claim that wine meant grape juice in those times and that alcohol was invented later.  Then evil Catholics decided to claim that the grape juice was wine so they can get drunk at church. One principal there was convinced Catholics all get drunk on communion wine every week. 

Wow. I mean... how stupid can you be? That is one of the dumbest things I've heard outside Q circles for quite a while. Alcohol was "invented"? By who? How do they explain how things just naturally ferment and create alcohol all on their own? What about Dionysus and all the Ancient Greek, Egyptian, etc. cultures who were all about that wine? 

What did Noah get drunk on, in the Bible, if alcohol hadn't been "invented" yet? Drunkenness shouldn't be mentioned at all anywhere in the Old Testament, if alcohol "hadn't been invented yet"!

Yet another problem with their "God-breathed, inerrant Bible". And another example of how thinking and intelligence is not encouraged among most fundamentalists. There are few things easier to debunk with just 10 seconds of actual thinking than the whole "grape juice" argument.

And I go to a Baptist church that uses grape juice for communion. But I have never heard anyone there suggest that in the Bible, "wine" was actually just grape juice. 

That sort of dissonance does go a long way to explain Anna, a bit. She's grown up being taught things similar to that, that are easily debunked, that make no sense if you think the least bit deeply about them at all - and told they are true and she must believe them or she'll rot in hell. She's got long practice of suppressing what critical thinking skills she managed to develop, and believing the unbelievable. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:54 AM, AprilQuilt said:

Totally. They were taught, like most of us were, that rape or sexual assault must be a violent attack from an obviously evil stranger - and so when we are assaulted by someone we know, trust, like, or even love (as happens in majority of cases)... it just can't have been assault. That's not what a crime looks like. And those girls were actively discouraged from believing it anyway. That house must have been really tense for them at times even if they weren't conscious or felt bad acknowledging it. I'm sure plenty of us as kids got that feeling of a certain adult being 'off', someone we want to steer clear of although we didn't know why - and many of us were socialised that this wasn't polite. The idea of living 24/7 with someone who gives you that feeling is awful.

There is the push/pull of cognitive dissonance where you know the person hurting you loves you. You’re supposed to obey you’re parents, so it must be okay that daddy sneaks into your bed at night? It’s very confusing and heavy for a developing brain to handle. 
 

 

11 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don’t think Joy was able to comprehend and verbalize it.  We have seen what she said in the Police Report, and it was just vague about Josh touching her under her skirt.

I don’t think all the kids were present in the room, and I don’t think anyone saw anything.  (Spoiler discusses what can happen and not be seen.)

  Reveal hidden contents

If you are wearing a full skirt and sitting on someone’s knee, it is not hard for him to seem to be “readjusting” you on his lap and while doing so touch whatever he can reach under the skirt with no one else being the wiser.  

All the narratives agree that Joy jumped up and ran out of the room.  It is also agreed that she went to an older sibling.   We used to speculate it might have been Jana, but with Jill being Joy’s sister-mom and Jill being labeled by Josh (at her own wedding, I believe) as a snitch, it was probably Jill.

Jill’s account in the police report was that she had woken up and caught Josh touching her or messing with her blanket or both.

I suspect that Jill, Jessa and Jinger may have been somewhat “coached” before the police report so that they each reported only one instance when actually Josh told Bobye that there were several.  Jinger was probably the most traumatized at the time of the police report (you can read how she is almost inarticulate).  Joy’s testimony in the police report is fairly innocent, as if whatever trauma she had has been pushed back, in part because she didn’t understand what happened.

FWIW, My interpretation is that Jessa was probably the least aware of the molestation, either because she was the soundest sleeper or because Josh had less access to her. (She may have slept on a bunkbed on the far side of the room, for example.)  Jinger was able to recognize the inappropriateness of Josh’s behavior in the laundry room, and probably to feel it was her fault in some way, but she was not able to describe/articulate what exactly he did.

Jill was in the position of having heard whatever Joy reported (even if she wasn’t the one Joy turned to initially, as the “sister mom” she would have heard) and also know what Josh had done to her. 

However, I am sure that both Jill and Joy (and Jessa, and Jinger) were told by their parents to put it out of their minds, that Josh was just too curious about girls, etc.  There was no way for them to process it differently, and it is probable that Joy forgot all about it between the police report and when In Touch brought it out.

Anyway, I agree that Joy probably had no idea what Josh had done to her until after Bobye’s initial deposition came out.  I am very glad that Austin clearly supported her through this difficult period.  I think Jill knew more, but still she wanted to hear the whole of what Bobye had to say.  It appears that Bobye and Jill and the other older girls had a good relationship, and I hope that they have gone to Bobye for more details.

(Note that I don’t think Bobye is to be relied on for what she and Jim Holt said or did, she tends to minimize anything they could be criticized for.  But I think she can be trusted by the girls to tell them somethings that really happened that their parents concealed.  According to an interview of Bobye on the SoJo Podcast, the girls invited the Holts to their weddings, but JB or Michelle phoned them and asked them not to come.)

This is a long post even for me, but there was a lot to cover. 

Oh, as for Derrick, I can’t imagine why JB would have told him (or his father, had he been living) that Jill had been molested by her brother.  Jill may have been afraid to tell him, too.  In those circles, the girl may be viewed as “spoiled” even if it isn’t in any way her fault. 

 

 

There is also the fact that different people process trauma differently. Jessa may not have been abused as much as the others; certainly she is a spitfire and doesn’t present as the ideal victim but she also might simply have handled the trauma differently. I agree that Jinger is probably very traumatized. 
 

 

[Satan'sFortress]

14 hours ago, Cam said:

We need to change the narrative so girls, and women, learn lessons about safety over being nice. At my age I’m still having to learn these things and unlearn old behavior. It was so ingrained in me to be nice, don’t make waves, blah blah blah.

Me too. I can remember as a girl being told not made a fuss about anything. If my hamburger came to the table at a restaurant and it was rare when I wanted well done, you can't say anything to the waiter. And my folks weren't mean about it---they weren't yelling "just eat it!!" It was just that they didn't want to 'cause any trouble.' I also remember having my hair cut/styled and being burned by the styling tools and not saying anything---or "is the water too hot?" "No, it's fine" (even thought it wasn't.) In fact, I just had my hair cut yesterday and the shampoo lady put the bib thingy on too tight around my neck. I am a grown-ass woman and still didn't say anything. WTF?

I realize that my examples may sound silly, especially compared to the topics being discussed, but my point is that being taught to react like that set up a pattern of behavior that lead to trouble later--over and over. Being groped on an airplane at 18 by a drunk guy and not doing anything about it. And I won't go on for fear of triggering, but you get the idea. 

Thinking about it like that makes me realize even more how the Duggar girls must have absorbed their abuse. They were constantly instructed to keep sweet and that females bear the blame if men stray. My instruction was more passive than direct, and I am still fucked up 54 years after.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

52 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

There is also the fact that different people process trauma differently. Jessa may not have been abused as much as the others; certainly she is a spitfire and doesn’t present as the ideal victim but she also might simply have handled the trauma differently. I agree that Jinger is probably very traumatized. 
 

I don't want to get into any speculation, but do we really believe the incidents relayed in the police report are the full extent of what Josh did over a multi-year period? I mean, the police interviews in late 2006 were conducted three to four years after the reported events and the girls sounded coached to at least some extent. Bottom line, Michelle and Jim Bob probably did not know the full extent of Josh's offenses. (although they knew enough that they should have fucking actually dealt with him). The Holts say/believe he started molesting girls as early as 2000. So I think it's hard to gauge the extent of anyone's experiences, never mind what any of his victims might still be processing or working through now.

With all due respect to Anna, there's (probably) more to the story. 

[Giraffe]

1 minute ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't want to get into any speculation, but do we really believe the incidents relayed in the police report are the full extent of what Josh did over a multi-year period?

Of course not. It’s one of the reasons I’m relieved the judge allowed the molestations in the trial. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

8 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Of course not. It’s one of the reasons I’m relieved the judge allowed the molestations in the trial. 

His sentence ended up about double of what it would have been had the molestations not been allowed in.

But I do wonder if this creates a potential appealable issue for Josh as another judge may have not allowed them in due to remoteness in time and the fact that he was an uncharged minor at the time. It won't surprise me if his attorneys at least try that argument.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Anne Of Gray Gables
Mathematic deficiencies.

[Giraffe]

31 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

His sentence ended up about double of what it would have been had the molestations not been allowed in.

But I do wonder if this creates a potential appealable issue for Josh as another judge may have not allowed them in due to remoteness in time and the fact that he was an uncharged minor at the time. It won't surprise me if his attorneys at least try that argument.

I’m sure they’ll try. The armchair & actual lawyers I’ve listened to seemed impressed with how precise the judge was in his sentencing. They feel confident the judge made sure nothing would be knocked down in appeal. I hope they’re right!

[postscript]

13 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

However, I am sure that both Jill and Joy (and Jessa, and Jinger) were told by their parents to put it out of their minds, that Josh was just too curious about girls, etc.  There was no way for them to process it differently, and it is probable that Joy forgot all about it between the police report and when In Touch brought it out.

 

 

 

I remember in one of the interviews Jill and Jessa said they had forgiven Josh. I suspect they were told to pray and forgive him, and once they said they’d done so, that was expected to close the matter. Except forgiveness isn’t the same as working through the trauma, so the trial has probably brought up a lot of unhealed trauma. 
 

 

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

They literally claim that wine meant grape juice in those times and that alcohol was invented later.  Then evil Catholics decided to claim that the grape juice was wine so they can get drunk at church. One principal there was convinced Catholics all get drunk on communion wine every week. 

They have never seen communion in a mainstream church, have they? You get one sip of wine, that’s it. It’s low-quality vintage, so it’s usually got a sour taste, and it’s not a high alcohol content. One would have to be pretty desperate to get drunk on communion wine. 
 

1 hour ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't want to get into any speculation, but do we really believe the incidents relayed in the police report are the full extent of what Josh did over a multi-year period? 

Absolutely not. I highly doubt Josh confessed to everything he did, and what was actually reported to the police (and ultimately made public) was probably further downplayed to make it sound as innocent as possible. 

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, postscript said:

They have never seen communion in a mainstream church, have they? You get one sip of wine, that’s it. It’s low-quality vintage, so it’s usually got a sour taste, and it’s not a high alcohol content. One would have to be pretty desperate to get drunk on communion wine. 

In Catholic church (and in a lot of liturgical Lutheran churches) they pour in some water, too. Most Catholic churches use boxed white zin. 

But...these people are the same ones that are basically convinced that one single sip of alcohol will make you an alcoholic. My college roommate grew up in a fundy-lite family and believed that. She also believed that no one could drink in moderation or responsibly. After my wedding, where alcohol was available, she told me how shocked she was that no one drank until they were drunk. She had spent her entire life avoiding any place where alcohol was served and was convinced that if it was, every adult would be 1) drinking until they were drunk and 2)trying to force anyone not drinking to drink. Basically, she thought any event with alcohol was a high school keg party. 

[neuroticcat]

4 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Me too. I can remember as a girl being told not made a fuss about anything. If my hamburger came to the table at a restaurant and it was rare when I wanted well done, you can't say anything to the waiter. And my folks weren't mean about it---they weren't yelling "just eat it!!" It was just that they didn't want to 'cause any trouble.' I also remember having my hair cut/styled and being burned by the styling tools and not saying anything---or "is the water too hot?" "No, it's fine" (even thought it wasn't.) In fact, I just had my hair cut yesterday and the shampoo lady put the bib thingy on too tight around my neck. I am a grown-ass woman and still didn't say anything. WTF?

I realize that my examples may sound silly, especially compared to the topics being discussed, but my point is that being taught to react like that set up a pattern of behavior that lead to trouble later--over and over. Being groped on an airplane at 18 by a drunk guy and not doing anything about it. And I won't go on for fear of triggering, but you get the idea. 

Thinking about it like that makes me realize even more how the Duggar girls must have absorbed their abuse. They were constantly instructed to keep sweet and that females bear the blame if men stray. My instruction was more passive than direct, and I am still fucked up 54 years after.

Absolutely agree. The emotional/verbal abuse I experienced as a child *trained* me to not speak up, not cause trouble, that my feelings/thoughts/responses were costly and taxing for other people, etc. This is a big reason instant-obedience-spanking culture is so incredibly destructive. "No" is not only developmentally appropriate for young children but so important to their agency and safety. Demanding that they say yes instantly to all authority without question and with cheerfulness is so destructive. It also neglects to give them appropriate tools for negotiation, learning when your "no" infringes on someone else's, and emotional regulation. The entire structure of the kind of fundamentalism the Duggars were raised in is not only abusive but designed to propagate abuse.

[postscript]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

In Catholic church (and in a lot of liturgical Lutheran churches) they pour in some water, too. Most Catholic churches use boxed white zin. 

Interesting. I was raised in one of the more conservative Lutheran denominations, and my recollection is that they bought special communion wine, which tasted awful. However, it’s been about 20 years since I last took communion, so things probably have changed. 

I’ve known quite a few people who believed one sip makes you an alcoholic, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised they think Catholic Churches are havens of sin. 

[Cam]

6 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I realize that my examples may sound silly…... 

 

To me, they do not sound silly at all. I get it because I have gone through the same experiences. For example, my sister and I were once visiting on my back porch and I was soo thirsty but she was endlessly yakking and I wouldn’t even stop her to say, “let me interrupt just a minute to run in the house and get us a couple bottles of water.” 
 

Lately, I’m better at being there for myself. A couple years ago after seeing numerous red flags with my siblings, I decided to work on firmer boundaries with them. It was so much harder than I thought it’d be. As I kept at it, tho (months into years), I recognized better boundaries were needed in even my closest relationships. These were easier to establish but so beneficial. Boundaries have taught me to check in with myself, show up for myself, listen to my gut and my feelings rather than always default to putting others before me. A work in progress.

Let me say that it sickens me to hear Michelle advise her daughters and daughters in law to be joyfully available “even when they’re big pregnant.” This is so evil, teaching young women to cast aside their own feelings as less important compared to what their man “needs”. It angers me so. Wtf did she teach her sons about being considerate husbands? Anything? Anything at all?

 

6 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't want to get into any speculation, but do we really believe the incidents relayed in the police report are the full extent of what Josh did over a multi-year period?….

……With all due respect to Anna, there's (probably) more to the story. 

I absolutely do not believe the police report contains the full extent of what Josh did. A lot was made his abuse of Joy when it was made public. We all know what he did while she sat on his lap. But I don’t think her abuse started then. He no doubt groomed her and fondled her over a period of  time until he progressed to what he did at Bible study time. If that was even the first time he went that far.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Cam

[Father Son Holy Goat]

6 hours ago, postscript said:

I remember in one of the interviews Jill and Jessa said they had forgiven Josh. I suspect they were told to pray and forgive him, and once they said they’d done so, that was expected to close the matter. Except forgiveness isn’t the same as working through the trauma, so the trial has probably brought up a lot of unhealed trauma. 
 

I haven’t forgiven my abusers. I don’t know if I ever will. I want to find peace, and if forgiveness brings me peace then I will do it when the time is right. If forgiveness doesn’t bring me peace then I won’t do it. 
 

3 hours ago, postscript said: I was raised in one of the more conservative Lutheran denominations

Which one? I was LCMS. I now call it the Lutheran Church Misery Synod. 

[quiversR4hunting]

3 hours ago, postscript said:

Interesting. I was raised in one of the more conservative Lutheran denominations, and my recollection is that they bought special communion wine, which tasted awful. However, it’s been about 20 years since I last took communion, so things probably have changed. 

I’ve known quite a few people who believed one sip makes you an alcoholic, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised they think Catholic Churches are havens of sin. 

In my area there is a very large local winery (they sell at minimum in the midwest but probably further) they have a one that is called communion wine but it is basically one of their top selling red wines. It's good, I miss having a sip at mass (I don't drink wine, a glass gives me a headache quickly- I'm allergic to a lot of stuff). There is another church about an hour a way and they have bitter communion wine. Not sure why. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I grew up Catholic and I always thought communion wine was terrible. Most Catholic churches aren't lucky enough to have wineries supplying the wine. One church that used to buy cheapest wine in the liquor store. 

I've never seen anyone drunk at a mass (Catholic service), but there has been many a Catholic wedding where a large number of people get drunk. It wasn't uncommon among the parishioners at my last church to get drunk at weddings.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[rainbowbabycakes]

I'm Baptist, we use grape juice, lol.... But since Covid, we have these nasty individually wrapped things that are AWFUL!!! My kid and I joke that it's cough syrup and styrofoam. Seriously gross.

I don't know if they're these exact ones, but they look like this

https://www.lifeway.com/en/product/fellowship-cup-prefilled-communion-cups-juice-and-wafer-500-count-box-P005479521?CMPID=Adwords-sb-PLA-005479521&ef_id=Cj0KCQjwzLCVBhD3ARIsAPKYTcSJraJ41gsIySgAufhaXmDjW2H7WBd1heYfJYLBaFg9_0wxQjJdza0aAnrwEALw_wcB:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!4443!3!566001104289!!!u!1661793174136!!15447113038!131329344438&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzLCVBhD3ARIsAPKYTcSJraJ41gsIySgAufhaXmDjW2H7WBd1heYfJYLBaFg9_0wxQjJdza0aAnrwEALw_wcB

[neuroticcat]

We have port wine for communion which is really sweet. PreCOVID we used to have a common cup and one of my kids would always grab that thing and start chugging. 😂 

[ven]

Its quite funny that the communion wine, in my neck of the woods, is only for the priest. Not for the congregation. 

[Smee]

19 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't want to get into any speculation, but do we really believe the incidents relayed in the police report are the full extent of what Josh did over a multi-year period? 

Nope. Bobye said it started when he was 12. No way do I believe that over four years there were only five incidents total, each victim was only touched once (two of them in their sleep), and kids raised in a cult went on to tell police every detail, secure in the knowledge that the cops wouldn’t take their brother away and if they did, it wouldn’t be the girls’ fault for blabbing. I tend to believe it was a case of “ok, the police know something happened so we pick one incident each, preferably the one that sounds the least bad, and you tell them about that incident and that alone. Also, don’t forget to say Josh is better now.”