Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[onekidanddone]

5 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Well said, and I agree. She's protecting herself by accepting his BS about Caleb being the real perp. "More to the story." If she ever stops accepting his claim that he's not the one, I don't see her thinking what he did is balanced out by his widow supporting or his cracker sweeping. She only cited these things to the court because she was hoping it would help minimize the sentence.

For now, she's probably pinning all her hopes on a successful appeal. An appeal that will never be granted. If she were truly suffering from cognitive dissonance, there would be no hope for her. But I think in time, she may very well gradually start accepting the truth. A decade is a long time. 

It doesn’t help that the IBLP trope is that Josh made ‘bad choices’ instead of Josh committed a crime. She can just say that to herself so she never has to admit to herself what a monster he is. 

[flycat]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Mentioning the Meghan Kelly interview makes me think about Jill and Jessa and how much they knew when they were telling the, “we were asleep and didn’t even know what he had done,” story.  Had they blocked it all out?  Did they really believe this was normal boyish behavior?

They told the story they were told to tell to keep the family out of trouble. They were conditioned to make daddy happy and not to tell the truth. They may have tried to rewrite what happened in their minds to fit that story. They may have blamed themselves and thought that by telling this story maybe it would make up for how they tempted Josh. 
 

If everyone around you says that this is just part of growing up and you have no one on your circle who says otherwise then of course you think it’s normal boyish behavior. There is no other narrative. 

 

[samurai_sarah]

1 hour ago, onekidanddone said:

It doesn’t help that the IBLP trope is that Josh made ‘bad choices’ instead of Josh committed a crime. She can just say that to herself so she never has to admit to herself what a monster he is. 

That is one of the many things that bugs me so much about the aftermath of Josh's sentencing, and the IBLP trope. "I regretted and repented" places the onus on the victims/survivors. It tells people that they are bad for not being quick enough with their forgiveness. Or it makes them out to be bad, because they don't forgive within the framework of IBLP. That is deeply unfair and protects the abusers. In other news: Water is wet.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, flycat said:

They told the story they were told to tell to keep the family out of trouble. They were conditioned to make daddy happy and not to tell the truth. They may have tried to rewrite what happened in their minds to fit that story. They may have blamed themselves and thought that by telling this story maybe it would make up for how they tempted Josh. 

If everyone around you says that this is just part of growing up and you have no one on your circle who says otherwise then of course you think it’s normal boyish behavior. There is no other narrative. 

I agree that they told what they were told to say.  The question is whether they had blocked out the worst parts and believed what they were saying (sort of how we think Anna has been fooling herself) or if they were aware how they were distorting the truth.  They would surely have said whatever they were told at that point, but there is a difference between consciously minimizing something and not really remembering it.

Looking back, I remember Jill being more upset than Jessa, and she kept saying how she felt more hurt by the media bringing it up now than she had felt when it had happened.  I think we speculated at the time that Derick may not have known any of this until it was brought up by In Touch. 

Around the same time, TLC ran a special about sexual abuse that had Michelle, Jill and Jessa attending some of seminar about abuse and then talking about what they had learned. Nothing they said suggested they had learned anything, but I have always wondered if this was the beginning of Jill realizing how messed up her family was in how they had handled Josh.

If we assume that Jill was the first sister to tell their parents when she caught him fondling her, and that she may have been the person Joy turned to when Josh molested her, Jill could have blocked the details, accepted partial blame, etc. until she attended this workshop on sexual abuse.  Talking to Derick may also have helped her see that what Josh did was not normal.

I also remember that their decision to go to Dangerous Central America to covert the Heathen Catholics was pretty sudden.  There had been talk of their  elsewhere, but suddenly they were gone to Central America.  It was strange timing because Derick had just had oral surgery too.  It sort of seems they may have wanted to get away from the Josh stuff for a while. 

[Cam]

9 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I agree that they told what they were told to say.  The question is whether they had blocked out the worst parts and believed what they were saying (sort of how we think Anna has been fooling herself) or if they were aware how they were distorting the truth.  They would surely have said whatever they were told at that point, but there is a difference between consciously minimizing something and not really remembering it.

Looking back, I remember Jill being more upset than Jessa, and she kept saying how she felt more hurt by the media bringing it up now than she had felt when it had happened.  I think we speculated at the time that Derick may not have known any of this until it was brought up by In Touch. 

Around the same time, TLC ran a special about sexual abuse that had Michelle, Jill and Jessa attending some of seminar about abuse and then talking about what they had learned. Nothing they said suggested they had learned anything, but I have always wondered if this was the beginning of Jill realizing how messed up her family was in how they had handled Josh.

If we assume that Jill was the first sister to tell their parents when she caught him fondling her, and that she may have been the person Joy turned to when Josh molested her, Jill could have blocked the details, accepted partial blame, etc. until she attended this workshop on sexual abuse.  Talking to Derick may also have helped her see that what Josh did was not normal.

I also remember that their decision to go to Dangerous Central America to covert the Heathen Catholics was pretty sudden.  There had been talk of their  elsewhere, but suddenly they were gone to Central America.  It was strange timing because Derick had just had oral surgery too.  It sort of seems they may have wanted to get away from the Josh stuff for a while. 

I question the timing of Counting On. Were Jessa and Jill told to minimizer the molestations during the MK interview because JB told them 19KAC was probably going bust but they had a shot at a spin-off depending on how the interview went? Whose idea was Counting On? Both JB and TLC had much to gain in the transfer to a new show. Not that the daughters would benefit much from it.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Derick knew nothing about the abuse until the InTouch article. His father wasn’t living when he and Jill married, so JB couldn’t have a heart to heart with him the way we assume he did with Anna’s dad. JB may not have thought Derrick needed to know a thing (more JB control). Jill and Derrick couldn’t have a private conversation while courting so how would she ever approach the subject then. Jill may have been so upset in the interview wondering if Derrick saw her as defiled or deceitful about her past or who knows what.

Did Joy turn to Jill when she was molested? I thought she was too young to convey that she was violated. I was under the impression that she was never told the extent of the abuse and only learned the true facts during the trial. The reason Jill and Joy attended the trial was to hear all the evidence reported under oath in a court of law. They probably had some memories but wanted clarity about what they remembered, what they were told happened and what really happened. They did this for their sanity. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Cam

[QuiverFullofBooks]

7 minutes ago, Cam said:

I question the timing of Counting On. Were Jessa and Jill told to minimizer the molestations during the MK interview because JB told them 19KAC was probably going bust but they had a shot at a spin-off depending on how the interview went? Whose idea was Counting On? Both JB and TLC had much to gain in the transfer to a new show. Not that the daughters would benefit much from it.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Derick knew nothing about the abuse until the InTouch article. His father wasn’t living when he and Jill married, so JB couldn’t have a heart to heart with him the way we assume he did with Anna’s dad. JB may not have thought Derrick needed to know a thing (more JB control). Jill and Derrick couldn’t have a private conversation while courting so how would she ever approach the subject then. Jill may have been so upset in the interview wondering if Derrick saw her as defiled or deceitful about her past or who knows what.

Did Joy turn to Jill when she was molested? I thought she was too young to convey that she was violated. I was under the impression that she was never told the extent of the abuse and only learned the true facts during the trial. The reason Jill and Joy attended the trial was to hear all the evidence reported under oath in a court of law. They probably had some memories but wanted clarity about what they remembered, what they were told happened and what really happened. They did this for their sanity. 

Josh molested Joy in front of the other kids. Jill probably witnessed it, and still managed to minimize it. Jill was definitely old enough to remember Joy’s molestation. I can only imagine Derick’s reaction when he finally found out. 

[Cam]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Josh molested Joy in front of the other kids. Jill probably witnessed it, and still managed to minimize it. Jill was definitely old enough to remember Joy’s molestation. I can only imagine Derick’s reaction when he finally found out. 

Emcatlyn said: “…we assume that Jill was the first sister to tell their parents when she caught him fondling her, and that she may have been the person Joy turned to when Josh molested her.”

My question was not about Jill’s age, but about whether Joy at age 5 was old enough to comprehend and verbalize the abuse of what happened to her to another sibling. You’re only speculating that “Jill probably witnessed it.” We do not know that. 
 

[AprilQuilt]

17 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Mentioning the Meghan Kelly interview makes me think about Jill and Jessa and how much they knew when they were telling the, “we were asleep and didn’t even know what he had done,” story.  Had they blocked it all out?  Did they really believe this was normal boyish behavior?

I watched the Kelly interview back and actually while Jill and Jessa do say that it happened when they were asleep, they don't say it only happened when they were asleep. They actually say they didn't know what he was doing, which really isn't the same as saying they didn't know he was doing it.

When Megyn Kelly asks 'you have no memory of it?' Jessa replies,
'I didn't know, I didn't understand, "OK, this is what's happened" until my parents told me about it'. 

The important part here is her stress that she didn't understand and until her parents actually identified that behaviour as wrong, she wasn't able to conceptualise it as such. Because the Duggars had not educated their children around bodily autonomy.

Jessa goes on to describe it basically happening perhaps frequently or routinely, definitely opportunistically, saying, 'he was very sly, like, the girls didn't catch on. It was like, OK, if he catches a girl sleeping, you know, like a quick feel or whatever... in the situations it happened when the girls were awake it was like they weren't aware of what was happening. It was very subtle.'

He was opportunistic. He was taking advantage of the girls' innocence. Even at this age he was finding ways to mask his behaviour, he charmed them, made them feel safe, joined in games like hide and seek when he might be in a confined space with them, had them sit on his lap for bible study. This is precisely what paedophiles do, and actually given how he was building these skills at the age of fourteen, I seriously doubt that he's never attempted it again since. He had a playground of little kids to practice on and God knows what he's managed to get away with over the years.

The girls use the fact that they weren't 'traumatised' by what Josh did (although actually from what we know now it sounds more and more like at least Jinger and Joy were and are) to minimise it - innocent experimenting, consequences implemented, no harm done. What they don't appreciate, what they were discouraged from appreciating, is that whether or not they were affected by it, he still did it. His acts were very wrong, in fact illegal, and he knew this. A crime with an unwitting victim is not less of a crime. If Jill did actually witness something of what he did to Joy first-hand, she might still have believed that it was not so bad because Joy was too young to understand what was actually happening - that this would have been worse with an older girl who understood immediately its import.

Whether they were aware or not, the girls should have been protected from this kind of violation and they weren't; in fact they were sent on TV to justify it. What a shitshow.

Edited June 16, 2022 by AprilQuilt

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

We have no idea which sister

10 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

 

Whether they were aware or not, the girls should have been protected from this kind of violation and they weren't; in fact they were sent on TV to justify it. What a shitshow.

And this is exactly what I hope the Prime documentary spends a lot of time focusing on when dealing with the Duggars. 

Jim Bob and Michelle sent two of their daughters onto a national TV program to blatantly lie to protect the person who repeatedly assaulted them and their little sisters. (And of course, to protect JB's reputation and pocketbook, a pocketbook that wasn't even shared with them.)

Now that we know the extent what happened to Joy and the fact that at least one girl had to physically fight the animal off, coupled Bobbieyeye Holt's claim it all started when he was 12, it's hard to think about the long term horror show that house must have been for those little girls. But I believe they were aware. Confused about what it was, for sure. But very aware. 

[AprilQuilt]

13 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Now that we know the extent what happened to Joy and the fact that at least one girl had to physically fight the animal off, coupled Bobbieyeye Holt's claim it all started when he was 12, it's hard to think about the long term horror show that house must have been for those little girls. But I believe they were aware. Confused about what it was, for sure. But very aware. 

Totally. They were taught, like most of us were, that rape or sexual assault must be a violent attack from an obviously evil stranger - and so when we are assaulted by someone we know, trust, like, or even love (as happens in majority of cases)... it just can't have been assault. That's not what a crime looks like. And those girls were actively discouraged from believing it anyway. That house must have been really tense for them at times even if they weren't conscious or felt bad acknowledging it. I'm sure plenty of us as kids got that feeling of a certain adult being 'off', someone we want to steer clear of although we didn't know why - and many of us were socialised that this wasn't polite. The idea of living 24/7 with someone who gives you that feeling is awful.

It's striking that Jessa and Jill's delivery of certain phrases in that interview are so reminiscent of Michelle particularly, and sometimes Jim Bob. They were just repeating what they'd been told by adults they loved and trusted. Like you, I'm also hoping the documentary does a good job of exposing JB and M's pretty toxic role in all this.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

19 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

That house must have been really tense for them at times even if they weren't conscious or felt bad acknowledging it. I'm sure plenty of us as kids got that feeling of a certain adult being 'off', someone we want to steer clear of although we didn't know why - and many of us were socialised that this wasn't polite. The idea of living 24/7 with someone who gives you that feeling is awful.

Yes. And of course they were in a very small house at the time with a mother distracted by babies and pregnancies, so unlike at the later TTH, there was probably no escape from him much of the time. 

[Alisamer]

3 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

I watched the Kelly interview back and actually while Jill and Jessa do say that it happened when they were asleep, they don't say it only happened when they were asleep. They actually say they didn't know what he was doing, which really isn't the same as saying they didn't know he was doing it.

When Megyn Kelly asks 'you have no memory of it?' Jessa replies,
'I didn't know, I didn't understand, "OK, this is what's happened" until my parents told me about it'. 

The important part here is her stress that she didn't understand and until her parents actually identified that behaviour as wrong, she wasn't able to conceptualise it as such. Because the Duggars had not educated their children around bodily autonomy.

Jessa goes on to describe it basically happening perhaps frequently or routinely, definitely opportunistically, saying, 'he was very sly, like, the girls didn't catch on. It was like, OK, if he catches a girl sleeping, you know, like a quick feel or whatever... in the situations it happened when the girls were awake it was like they weren't aware of what was happening. It was very subtle.'

This is all very important. They knew he was doing it, at least part of the time, they just didn't know what it was that he was doing, or how to talk about it or make him stop.

He groomed them, to put it simply. He sits beside you to help you with some schoolwork or read along the bible with you or share your hymn book, and puts his arm around you to get close enough to see. Normal, right? Except his hand just happens to end up on your breast. Surely he doesn't realize it, right? It's just an accident. Same thing, this time you're sitting cross-legged. Your skirt is covering everything. He casually puts an arm around you and his hand just happens to end up between your legs. Over your skirt. He's idly moving his hand. Surely he doesn't realize where his hand ended up, right? Just an accident. How could someone you love and trust do something bad to you? Is it really even bad? It's over your clothes. Maybe he doesn't realize he's even touching you there.

And on top of that - it's explainable. It could be accidental. It's just touching, just over clothing. Does that even count as being molested? Was it your fault for not realizing it wasn't an accident? Couldn't you have done something like stepped away or made up an excuse to leave? Why didn't you? Why did you share a book with him the second time, after he touched you once already? (Because you didn't realize it was wrong, and rationalized it away, anyway.)

On the plus side, they did tell their parents and SOMETHING was done about it. Not enough, clearly. They weren't protected. But they do seem to have been believed, at least.

Lots of victims don't tell anyone. Because they know the response would be "Well, why were you alone with him?" or "Why didn't you tell him to stop?" or "Well if you just hadn't let him share with you..." and things like that. They know they'll get blamed, subtly. They didn't tell soon enough, they didn't stop things, they were the ones who asked him for help with work, they were the ones who wanted to show him a picture in that book...

And often? Those touches described above? The victim rationalizes them away, basically forgets about them, and aren't bothered by them. UNTIL something more happens. Something worse. Something that can't be rationalized, that makes it clear in retrospect that those were NOT accidental, that they were actually molested. And then... what? It's been a long time since those first touches. And they didn't stop him after those because they didn't realize what was going on. So now they are even more likely to get the "Well why did you let him..." questions. 

I'm glad they told. I didn't. Still haven't. I still don't want to hear "well, if you only hadn't..."

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think its possible some of their memories are very distorted by them being children when it happened (especially sheltered, emotionally repressed children who were not given the language to talk about this) and that for years and years they were not allowed to talk about it and were gaslighted by their parents about how it was less severe than it actually was. Especially as Josh mostly targeted sleepy children, its possible they were manipulated by their parents into thinking the worst of it was "just a dream", or began to question their memories themselves because their parents always said they were asleep and didnt remember it.

This also might have been Jessa's experience. As I recall, the two incidents in the police report where they were awake-the Bible study, and a little girl cornered and molested in the laundry room, happened to much younger children, so he may have only molested closer in age girls in their sleep and saved the awake times for children who were much smaller than him and couldnt fight back. Apparently one girl did wake up, but that may not have been Jessa (wasnt it Jill?) Maybe that's why the parents chose Jill and Jessa (other than the whole gross "damaged goods" thing, that portential suitors might not want the unmarried daughters if they knew they'd been touched by someone else, but it doesnt matter as much with the girls that already had a partner).

They also were very much under their parents thumb at that point, as they were a lot younger back then and had only just started making their way in the world, so still very naive. They had no choice but to give the story their parents told them to and downplay it, and had been brainwashed into that for their whole lives. Nowadays, we are seeing a different picture of it as cracks are starting to form in the family's perfect image, and the court case gave them the truth in a way that they were never allowed access to in the past.

[Cam]

3 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

I watched the Kelly interview back and actually while Jill and Jessa do say that it happened when they were asleep, they don't say it only happened when they were asleep. They actually say they didn't know what he was doing, which really isn't the same as saying they didn't know he was doing it.

When Megyn Kelly asks 'you have no memory of it?' Jessa replies,
'I didn't know, I didn't understand, "OK, this is what's happened" until my parents told me about it'. 

The important part here is her stress that she didn't understand and until her parents actually identified that behaviour as wrong, she wasn't able to conceptualise it as such. Because the Duggars had not educated their children around bodily autonomy.

Jessa goes on to describe it basically happening perhaps frequently or routinely, definitely opportunistically, saying, 'he was very sly, like, the girls didn't catch on. It was like, OK, if he catches a girl sleeping, you know, like a quick feel or whatever... in the situations it happened when the girls were awake it was like they weren't aware of what was happening. It was very subtle.'

He was opportunistic. He was taking advantage of the girls' innocence. Even at this age he was finding ways to mask his behaviour, he charmed them, made them feel safe, joined in games like hide and seek when he might be in a confined space with them, had them sit on his lap for bible study. This is precisely what paedophiles do, and actually given how he was building these skills at the age of fourteen, I seriously doubt that he's never attempted it again since. He had a playground of little kids to practice on and God knows what he's managed to get away with over the years.

The girls use the fact that they weren't 'traumatised' by what Josh did (although actually from what we know now it sounds more and more like at least Jinger and Joy were and are) to minimise it - innocent experimenting, consequences implemented, no harm done. What they don't appreciate, what they were discouraged from appreciating, is that whether or not they were affected by it, he still did it. His acts were very wrong, in fact illegal, and he knew this. A crime with an unwitting victim is not less of a crime. If Jill did actually witness something of what he did to Joy first-hand, she might still have believed that it was not so bad because Joy was too young to understand what was actually happening - that this would have been worse with an older girl who understood immediately its import.

Whether they were aware or not, the girls should have been protected from this kind of violation and they weren't; in fact they were sent on TV to justify it. What a shitshow.

Wow. You describe these events in such clear detail it makes me so angry at JB, Meech and Josh! The part where Jessa said Josh was sly, I can just imagine he trolled for opportunities daily to fondle one or more of them, like it was a sport, predatory, his form of entertainment. Looked for opportunities to do it when his parents were not around.
 

I once worked as a temp secretary and some guy who on the surface appeared nice enough liked to walk by close enough to brush his hand across my ass when I was standing. The first couple times I thought it was on accident. Eventually I learned from the other woman in the office he did it to her, too. Once the dude realized we were not having it any more and prevented him from continuing, he just laughed about it. But it all started out casually….

The message we need to instill in girls while they’re growing up is “ Prioritize being safe over being nice.” As women, this should be one of our mantras. That’s where all the religious sweetness sends the wrong effing message to females. 
 

All these other comments are so on the mark, I get angry thinking everything!

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Cam

[Letgo]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:55 AM, saywhat7 said:

The part I struggle with is how does she see him innocent. She sat through the trial. I don't get it. 

While I totally agree with you, the human capacity for denial and rationalization seems to be limitless. Think of all the people who believe in the QAnon conspiracies, women who are attracted to/even marry serial killers in prison, people who join cults.
Like saywhat7, I don’t understand how Anna could sit through that trail and hear the evidence and STILL believe “there is more to the story.” But Anna desperately needs to believe that her Josh-ua, her dream husband and the father  of her children is innocent. I think her view of her life would be destroyed if she accepted that Josh is a predatory pedophile. He’s is one sick guy but refusing to believe that is her protection. 

[backyard sylph]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

Wow. You describe these events in such clear detail it makes me so angry at JB, Meech and Josh! The part where Jessa said Josh was sly, I can just imagine he trolled for opportunities daily to fondle one or more of them, like it was a sport, predatory, his form of entertainment. Looked for opportunities to do it when his parents were not around.
 

I once worked as a temp secretary and some guy who on the surface appeared nice enough liked to walk by close enough to brush his hand across my ass when I was standing. The first couple times I thought it was on accident. Eventually I learned from the other woman in the office he did it to her, too. Once the dude realized we were not having it any more and prevented him from continuing, he just laughed about it. But it all started out casually….

The message we need to instill in girls while they’re growing up is “ Prioritize being safe over being nice.” As women, this should be one of our mantras. That’s where all the religious sweetness sends the wrong effing message to females. 
 

All these other comments are so on the mark, I get angry thinking everything!

 

 

I feel like while I was growing up there was always someone around being a "pest" in that way, a friend's brother, a boy in gym glass, a boy on the schoolbus, an art teacher. Like absolutely the Duggars and others were wrong to say it's normal in families, but every single woman I know, at least over a certain age, has been touched wrongly by a few jerks who were just in proximity for one reason or another. Women my mom's age just expected it in their workplaces. 

[louisa05]

On 6/8/2022 at 12:45 AM, Bad Wolf said:

Men with short hair, women with long hair, no pants for women, no alcohol. So they follow a long haired guy in a dress who drinks wine. That Jesus, such a rebel.

I was assured in Protestant church growing up and many times over when I taught at a Christian school that Jesus drank grape juice, not wine.

[backyard sylph]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I was assured in Protestant church growing up and many times over when I taught at a Christian school that Jesus drank grape juice, not wine.

It would have to be canned or refrigerated, or else it would just be wine after a little while anyway. These people exhaust me. 

[louisa05]

1 minute ago, backyard sylph said:

It would have to be canned or refrigerated, or else it would just be wine after a little while anyway. These people exhaust me. 

A youth pastor at Christian school chapel once gave an entire sermon once about the great love people in Jesus’ time had for fresh grape juice and that’s why he turned the water into grape juice at the wedding at Cana. According to him, people usually didn’t get fresh grape juice at celebrations which is why that miracle got the party started. 

[Cam]

Too many religions suck the pleasure out of life. No dancing because lust. No self gratification or premarital sex because apparently God didn’t create those specific body parts to be enjoyed. No drinking because….well, I don’t know why! 

Terrible things happen to both religious people and non-religious people. Yet so many religious people  believe God protects or helps or saves them. 

I get really annoyed when believers pray for the most superficial things. On an episode of Say Yes To The Dress (guilty pleasure, don’t judge) I watched three women hold hands and pray that the dress on the mannequin was available. They prayed twice! And it was for a reception dress, the wedding gown was already purchased!
 

 

[Smee]

6 hours ago, Alisamer said:

This is all very important. They knew he was doing it, at least part of the time, they just didn't know what it was that he was doing, or how to talk about it or make him stop.

He groomed them, to put it simply. He sits beside you to help you with some schoolwork or read along the bible with you or share your hymn book, and puts his arm around you to get close enough to see. Normal, right? Except his hand just happens to end up on your breast. Surely he doesn't realize it, right? It's just an accident. Same thing, this time you're sitting cross-legged. Your skirt is covering everything. He casually puts an arm around you and his hand just happens to end up between your legs. Over your skirt. He's idly moving his hand. Surely he doesn't realize where his hand ended up, right? Just an accident. How could someone you love and trust do something bad to you? Is it really even bad? It's over your clothes. Maybe he doesn't realize he's even touching you there.

And on top of that - it's explainable. It could be accidental. It's just touching, just over clothing. Does that even count as being molested? Was it your fault for not realizing it wasn't an accident? Couldn't you have done something like stepped away or made up an excuse to leave? Why didn't you? Why did you share a book with him the second time, after he touched you once already? (Because you didn't realize it was wrong, and rationalized it away, anyway.)

On the plus side, they did tell their parents and SOMETHING was done about it. Not enough, clearly. They weren't protected. But they do seem to have been believed, at least.

Lots of victims don't tell anyone. Because they know the response would be "Well, why were you alone with him?" or "Why didn't you tell him to stop?" or "Well if you just hadn't let him share with you..." and things like that. They know they'll get blamed, subtly. They didn't tell soon enough, they didn't stop things, they were the ones who asked him for help with work, they were the ones who wanted to show him a picture in that book...

And often? Those touches described above? The victim rationalizes them away, basically forgets about them, and aren't bothered by them. UNTIL something more happens. Something worse. Something that can't be rationalized, that makes it clear in retrospect that those were NOT accidental, that they were actually molested. And then... what? It's been a long time since those first touches. And they didn't stop him after those because they didn't realize what was going on. So now they are even more likely to get the "Well why did you let him..." questions. 

I'm glad they told. I didn't. Still haven't. I still don't want to hear "well, if you only hadn't..."

I’m so sorry. It wasn’t your fault in the slightest.

I agree that Josh groomed them and that they didn’t have the language to articulate WHAT he was doing or how to make him stop. You said “they did tell their parents and something was done, though not enough” but piecing together Bobye’s story (that it started when he was 12) and the thing about one of the older girls fighting him off, I do suspect when they first told their parents they got a lot of victim-blaming “why didn’t you tell him to stop? Why did you sit with him?” crap. It continued to escalate, and something inadequate was done AFTER an older child had physically fought him off and he’d gone for the youngest girl in the house, brazenly in a room with other kids. It couldn’t be stopped by “just don’t be alone with him” or “just say stop”. I have to wonder how many times those poor girls cried for help and what it took for him to be finally sent away. Knowing JB and Meech it probably wasn’t until the 5th victim, the non-family one, told an adult outside their house and they were forced to deal with it. 
 

In the police reports they refer to that area as “private” and also the breasts as “private” and basically say “Josh touched my privates”. That’s all the language they had. They couldn’t articulate with any more detail than that.

3 minutes ago, Cam said:

Too many religions suck the pleasure out of life. No dancing because lust. No self gratification or premarital sex because apparently God didn’t create those specific body parts to be enjoyed. No drinking because….well, I don’t know why! 

Terrible things happen to both religious people and non-religious people. Yet so many religious people  believe God protects or helps or saves them. 

I get really annoyed when believers pray for the most superficial things. On an episode of Say Yes To The Dress (guilty pleasure, don’t judge) I watched three women hold hands and pray that the dress on the mannequin was available. They prayed twice! And it was for a reception dress, the wedding gown was already purchased!
 

 

It felt gross to me when a fundie lite woman at my church - a woman who eventually left in a big huff because the pastor wouldn’t agree to encouraging/expecting parishioners to confess publicly at the front of the church on a regular basis - thanked Jesus on Facebook for getting her out of a speeding ticket. 

[Satan'sFortress]

6 hours ago, Cam said:

The message we need to instill in girls while they’re growing up is “ Prioritize being safe over being nice.” As women, this should be one of our mantras. That’s where all the religious sweetness sends the wrong effing message to females. 

This is true. It's also true that we need to instill in boys that they shouldn't be touching women's asses without permission. (Said as a mother of 2 sons.)

[Cam]

1 hour ago, Satan'sFortress said:

This is true. It's also true that we need to instill in boys that they shouldn't be touching women's asses without permission. (Said as a mother of 2 sons.)

Most definitely. I have grown sons, too, and they respect women’s boundaries.
 

Society conditions females from birth to be selfless, submissive, friendly, yielding, kind, caring, considerate, congenial….all the things. Many girls are praised for these so-called attributes over other skills. Parents often take great pride in their sweet daughters who are polite and have manners. We need to change the narrative so girls, and women, learn lessons about safety over being nice. At my age I’m still having to learn these things and unlearn old behavior. It was so ingrained in me to be nice, don’t make waves, blah blah blah.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Cam

[Bad Wolf]

2 hours ago, Smee said:

 

 

In the police reports they refer to that area as “private” and also the breasts as “private” and basically say “Josh touched my privates”. That’s all the language they had. They couldn’t articulate with any more detail than that.

 

Didn't they use the term, "pee pee holder"? A term I never heard before and hope to never hear again.

I just finished watching, " Without a Trace". If I'd known that I wonder if I would have encouraged Wolf Boy and the Grand Wolves to join scouts. I even joined myself as an assistant, after all my family members were through. I know that as a troop we're very careful to follow the guidelines. I still think it's a great program, and it saddens me that so many boys were hurt, and it was covered up.

[Bethy]

3 hours ago, Smee said:

In the police reports they refer to that area as “private” and also the breasts as “private” and basically say “Josh touched my privates”. That’s all the language they had. They couldn’t articulate with any more detail than that.

I remember reading the report years ago and realizing instantly that they'd been taught that anything covered by a swimsuit was "privates" and they didn't have any other terminology to use. Which is one thing if it were a toddler but it sounds like the older girls were definitely developing (so preteens at the very least) by the time it happened to them and still using baby-talk terminology.

Strongest argument I've come across for using actual body part terminology.