Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[Pecansforeveryone]

19 hours ago, Giraffe said:

I’m sure they’ll try. The armchair & actual lawyers I’ve listened to seemed impressed with how precise the judge was in his sentencing. They feel confident the judge made sure nothing would be knocked down in appeal. I hope they’re right!

Would Josh have had more basis for appeal if he had been sentenced to the maximum of 20 years? I'm an American who believes the US justice system is deeply, horribly flawed. The fact that so many people (often POC) are given the same sentence and more as Josh is confirmation of this. 

[postscript]

11 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I haven’t forgiven my abusers. I don’t know if I ever will. I want to find peace, and if forgiveness brings me peace then I will do it when the time is right. If forgiveness doesn’t bring me peace then I won’t do it. 
 

Which one? I was LCMS. I now call it the Lutheran Church Misery Synod. 

I was also LCMS. Parents went to Valpo and everything. What I find humorous in retrospect was that my mother considered the Wisconsin Synod too conservative. 

I ultimately forgave my father for abandoning our family when I was a teen, but it took decades and many hours of therapy. I could not manage the instant forgiveness that was expected of me at the time. Our relationship is still strained and always will be, and the poor way the whole thing was handled left lasting scars. 

I hope you find peace, but I don’t know that forgiveness will help with that. It’s okay not to forgive an abuser. 

 

[Giraffe]

36 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Would Josh have had more basis for appeal if he had been sentenced to the maximum of 20 years? I'm an American who believes the US justice system is deeply, horribly flawed. The fact that so many people (often POC) are given the same sentence and more as Josh is confirmation of this. 

I believe Josh’s basis for appeal is simply that he was convicted. As in: if a person’s found guilty they automatically have the right to appeal. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

2 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I believe Josh’s basis for appeal is simply that he was convicted. As in: if a person’s found guilty they automatically have the right to appeal. 

He can also appeal the length of his sentence.  

[Four is Enough]

11 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I grew up Catholic and I always thought communion wine was terrible. Most Catholic churches aren't lucky enough to have wineries supplying the wine. One church that used to buy cheapest wine in the liquor store. 

When my kids made their first communion, they were told they could take the cup.. but they were given  a taste of the wine, and told in no  uncertain terms NOT to make a face at the taste of the wine..

4 hours ago, ven said:

Its quite funny that the communion wine, in my neck of the woods, is only for the priest. Not for the congregation. 

Actually, it's doctrine that anyone can go up to the altar and drink from the cup, if they so desire. I've never seen anyone do it, though.

[Howl]

17 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Absolutely agree. The emotional/verbal abuse I experienced as a child *trained* me to not speak up, not cause trouble, that my feelings/thoughts/responses were costly and taxing for other people, etc. This is a big reason instant-obedience-spanking culture is so incredibly destructive. "No" is not only developmentally appropriate for young children but so important to their agency and safety. Demanding that they say yes instantly to all authority without question and with cheerfulness is so destructive.

Gothard himself was exposed as a pedophile (his target was teen girls with a specific look); he set up an entire system that facilitated his access to targets on a large scale with rotating victims so there was an unending supply of girls of his preferred age to prey on. 

A woman speculated that a large part of Gothard's teaching on obedience to authority was initially developed and motivated to this exact end -- he wanted obedient victims. 

For those not around when Gothard was exposed, there was/is sexual compulsion and criminality on an epic scale among the three  Gothard brothers. I'm suspecting it rises to the level of sociopathy.  There are six Gothard siblings, (Bill, Steve and David) and three sisters.  I think everyone was involved in the organization to some degree, but the sisters have kept a very low profile. 

In the 1980s, Steve Gothard had to leave the organization after he had multiple (around 7)  "affairs" with women in the IBLP admin offices.  I put affairs in quotes because there seemed to be no clarification about what was consensual and what was forced or harassment. 

And then there's the vile David Locke Gothard who used a Ponzi scheme to bilk the elderly out of millions in savings, AFTER he had spent time in prison for epic securities fraud and the Ponzi scheme was relatively recent.

BILL GOTHARD’S BROTHER ACCUSED OF RACKETEERING, STEALING MILLIONS FROM THE ELDERLY

I can't get information on what happened with Steve Gothard subsequently; google just defaults to Bill Gothard when I search.  I don't think Steve Gothard has lived a stellar life. 

For those that want to take a deeper dive, this is a good article from 2018 about the damage and abuse teen girls and young women suffered from working at IBLP.   

The Fundamentalist Trap   Allegations of sexual harassment brought down Bill Gothard, a leading figure of the Christian right. But his fall also revealed the diminished influence of fundamentalism in the Trump era.

(WTF on the article's subtitle, though.  IBLP may be failing, but fundamentalist influence has grown magnitudes stronger.)

[neuroticcat]

I didn’t know Gothard had three sisters. What a nightmare for them. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

3 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

He can also appeal the length of his sentence.  

Yes, he can appeal both the conviction and the length of his sentence, although I'm not sure how these two might coordinate. I would assume the conviction appeal comes first, but I don't know if he can concurrently appeal the length of his sentence. Relative to the sentence, here are the grounds for a potential appeal. Nothing jumps out at me, but I'm sure his attorneys will come up with some arguments: 

Sentencing a defendant above the maximum sentence for a crime

Improperly including multiple counts in a single sentence

Failing to allow in certain evidence during the sentencing phase

Departing upward or downward from federal sentencing guidelines without justification

Improperly calculating a sentence under the federal sentencing guidelines

Sentencing a defendant in a manner that is disproportionate to the crime

Cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the U.S. or state constitution.

[Cheetah]

There is at least one winery in California (Concannon) and there maybe be more that were able to stay open during the prohibition era by pivoting to communion wine.  

At my church now (ELCA) the wine quality has varied over time depending on what brand the altar guild is buying.  It has been really good lately and it turns out we have a new-ish member who has his own winery and has been donating wine for communion.  We also have grape juice as an option for people who prefer that.  There was one year where the head of altar guild and the pastor decided that for lent they would only have nonalcoholic wine, as sort of a penitent thing.  But the stuff they bought was disgusting... it was quite sour.  Which I could see might have a liturgical point, but all it did was make a lot of people opt out of communion or at least fake it on the wine part for a few weeks.  They haven't repeated that experiment. 

[livinginthelight]

11 hours ago, rainbowbabycakes said:

I don't know if they're these exact ones, but they look like this

https://www.lifeway.com/en/product/fellowship-cup-prefilled-communion-cups-juice-and-wafer-500-count-box-P005479521?CMPID=Adwords-sb-PLA-005479521&ef_id=Cj0KCQjwzLCVBhD3ARIsAPKYTcSJraJ41gsIySgAufhaXmDjW2H7WBd1heYfJYLBaFg9_0wxQjJdza0aAnrwEALw_wcB:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!4443!3!566001104289!!!u!1661793174136!!15447113038!131329344438&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzLCVBhD3ARIsAPKYTcSJraJ41gsIySgAufhaXmDjW2H7WBd1heYfJYLBaFg9_0wxQjJdza0aAnrwEALw_wcB

We use these things too, ever since we returned to meeting in person after the Covid lockdown. Besides tasting bad, they are so awkward to open! For the uninitiated, there is a clear cellophane layer on top which must first be peeled off to get to the cardboardish wafer. You then peel back the foil to get to the grape juice. And grape juice stains when it drips. The source of lots of jokes in my congregation for sure.

We initially had to change brands because with the first type we tried, the foil was nearly impossible to peel back, and people either gave up or made a heroic attempt to tear it and would wind up spraying grape juice all over. 😄

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by livinginthelight

[neuroticcat]

We have the little individual cups now post COVID and a tray of grape juice and of wine. I like that there is a juice alternative out of respect for those committed to sobriety.

[fluffernutter]

We are now going to the Lutheran church my husband grew up in (that's a whole other long story, we were UU's, then I was going to UCC, and now we are back to where we got married). Anyway, I sometimes make the bread for communion and my husband took it back to wherever that stuff is to set it up. He saw the wine, it's Riunite. Reminds me a bit of wine coolers. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

6 hours ago, Smee said:

Nope. Bobye said it started when he was 12. No way do I believe that over four years there were only five incidents total, each victim was only touched once (two of them in their sleep), and kids raised in a cult went on to tell police every detail, secure in the knowledge that the cops wouldn’t take their brother away and if they did, it wouldn’t be the girls’ fault for blabbing. I tend to believe it was a case of “ok, the police know something happened so we pick one incident each, preferably the one that sounds the least bad, and you tell them about that incident and that alone. Also, don’t forget to say Josh is better now.”

I was not raised in a cult and I was told if I ever talked about what was happening at home we (my siblings and I) would be taken away from my parents and it would be MY FAULT. I’m still working on figuring out what is and is not my fault. 
 

5 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Would Josh have had more basis for appeal if he had been sentenced to the maximum of 20 years? I'm an American who believes the US justice system is deeply, horribly flawed. The fact that so many people (often POC) are given the same sentence and more as Josh is confirmation of this. 

I agree that our justice system is very flawed but in this instance I think it did it’s job well. 

 

5 hours ago, postscript said:

I was also LCMS. Parents went to Valpo and everything. What I find humorous in retrospect was that my mother considered the Wisconsin Synod too conservative. 

I hope you find peace, but I don’t know that forgiveness will help with that. It’s okay not to forgive an abuser. 

 

Ha, I looked at Valpo! I ultimately went to a different college where I was happy, in spite of a raging eating disorder.

I agree it’s okay not to forgive an abuser, or anyone for that matter. I keep forgiveness on the table as an option because I’ve found a lot of comfort in religious practices during my recovery. My current pastor has been incredibly supportive and encouraged  me to take what I need from faith while leaving that which doesn’t serve me.
 

2 hours ago, Howl said:

Gothard himself was exposed as a pedophile (his target was teen girls with a specific look); he set up an entire system that facilitated his access to targets on a large scale with rotating victims so there was an unending supply of girls of his preferred age to prey on. 

A woman speculated that a large part of Gothard's teaching on obedience to authority was initially developed and motivated to this exact end -- he wanted obedient victims. 

For those not around when Gothard was exposed, there was/is sexual compulsion and criminality on an epic scale among the three  Gothard brothers. I'm suspecting it rises to the level of sociopathy.  There are six Gothard siblings, (Bill, Steve and David) and three sisters.  I think everyone was involved in the organization to some degree, but the sisters have kept a very low profile. 

In the 1980s, Steve Gothard had to leave the organization after he had multiple (around 7)  "affairs" with women in the IBLP admin offices.  I put affairs in quotes because there seemed to be no clarification about what was consensual and what was forced or harassment. 

And then there's the vile David Locke Gothard who used a Ponzi scheme to bilk the elderly out of millions in savings, AFTER he had spent time in prison for epic securities fraud and the Ponzi scheme was relatively recent.

BILL GOTHARD’S BROTHER ACCUSED OF RACKETEERING, STEALING MILLIONS FROM THE ELDERLY

I can't get information on what happened with Steve Gothard subsequently; google just defaults to Bill Gothard when I search.  I don't think Steve Gothard has lived a stellar life. 

For those that want to take a deeper dive, this is a good article from 2018 about the damage and abuse teen girls and young women suffered from working at IBLP.   

The Fundamentalist Trap   Allegations of sexual harassment brought down Bill Gothard, a leading figure of the Christian right. But his fall also revealed the diminished influence of fundamentalism in the Trump era.

(WTF on the article's subtitle, though.  IBLP may be failing, but fundamentalist influence has grown magnitudes stronger.)

What happened in the Gothard household growing up?!
 

49 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

We have the little individual cups now post COVID and a tray of grape juice and of wine. I like that there is a juice alternative out of respect for those committed to sobriety.

We have the little cups too. Pre Covid we had red alcoholic wine in the common cup, white non alcoholic for dipping, and individual red and white in little cups. Occasionally we have Champaign for Easter! 

[front hugs > duggs]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

We have the little individual cups now post COVID and a tray of grape juice and of wine. I like that there is a juice alternative out of respect for those committed to sobriety.

We had this at synagogue for Shabbat- trays of the little cups of grape juice, usually for kids. I remember feeling legit when I was able to start grabbing the wine, which I think would have been after my Bat Mitzvah. 

[arareyeah]

We don't have that many local winery in my country, but I went to one during my honeymoon last year and apparently they've been supplying communion/sacramental wine to the Catholic churches in my country since 2019. Even got Vatican's stamp of approval. They don't sell it to the masses of course, but they do have a version you can buy. It's a nice fortified wine that could last up to 28 days in the fridge once you opened it. Not sure if the boxed wine for church purpose tastes the same, tho.

My friend's church gives tiny individual prefilled plastic cup with the wafer already on top and bible verse printed on the lid even before COVID. Very practical considering the size of the congregation.

[neuroticcat]

We did the prepackaged cup combo during the height of the pandemic, but I am glad we are back to homemade bread. Post pandemic they make little tiny circles in mini muffin wrappers. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I’m ELCA. We have sweet, strong wine in little plastic cups (so basically shots). There’s also a few cups of grape juice for those who don’t drink alcohol.

[zee_four]

Anyone here familiar with the ducelet flavor of Manischewitz? The number 1 choice of seats, Jewish holidays, bat/bar mitzvahs etc. everywhere. 

I was in a small local "multicultural" (as opposed to Pan Hellenic) Jewish sorority the 1 1/2-2 years I was back home at local state school. 

Most reform Jewish kids hang out at the more liberal/reform Hillel. One of our presideblnts grew up conservative Jewish with a super liberal child of the 60s mother. They bought a 3rd house just to walk to shul in Shabbat. She and her triplet sister became super orthodox. Both are frum (the funniest of Judaism), follow tzniut (the Jewish modesty laws/code) are shom shab or shomer shabbat (follow the Shabbat/Shabbos rules like no electricity from Fri night to Sat night at sunset, no writing or cooking, going to Shabbat sertopic.

In college she encouraged most of our sorority 5o hang out at Chabad. Chabad-Lubavich is a hassidic (haredi, ultra orthodox) group. They're the most evangelical of all Jewish groups which takes almost nothing. But they do outreach for now practicing Jewish to start performing mitzvahs or good deeds like women lighting the Shabbat candles and saying the prayer, etc. Husband and wife teams with young and rapidly growing families are sent to Chabad houses in areas across the world. In the US they're in many college towns, any area with a decent Jewish populations. They keep ALL the holidays and are always open door. We used to just destroy Shabbat and bring cases of Manischewitz with us bringing thus back on topic.

I'm a Confirmed Catholic and was baptized LDS when I was younger. The Catholic churches in Colorado and Hawai'i I had communion at it tastes like red wine. Nothing special. LDS use tiny water cups with tiny pieces of white bread. I'm not even going there with the joke its too low hanging .

[EmCatlyn]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:58 AM, louisa05 said:

They literally claim that wine meant grape juice in those times and that alcohol was invented later.  Then evil Catholics decided to claim that the grape juice was wine so they can get drunk at church. One principal there was convinced Catholics all get drunk on communion wine every week. 

It just convinces me that these people aren’t reading the Bible.  There are references to drunkenness in the Bible.  You don’t get drunk on grape juice unless it has fermented and become ….WINE! 😉

On 6/17/2022 at 3:01 PM, louisa05 said:

In Catholic church (and in a lot of liturgical Lutheran churches) they pour in some water, too. Most Catholic churches use boxed white zin. 

But...these people are the same ones that are basically convinced that one single sip of alcohol will make you an alcoholic. My college roommate grew up in a fundy-lite family and believed that. She also believed that no one could drink in moderation or responsibly. After my wedding, where alcohol was available, she told me how shocked she was that no one drank until they were drunk. She had spent her entire life avoiding any place where alcohol was served and was convinced that if it was, every adult would be 1) drinking until they were drunk and 2)trying to force anyone not drinking to drink. Basically, she thought any event with alcohol was a high school keg party. 

I find the idea of any social event with wine becoming a bacchanalia quite hilarious.  Imagine all the drunken people coming out of communion each Sunday.

[EmCatlyn]

44 minutes ago, zee_four said:

Anyone here familiar with the ducelet flavor of Manischewitz? The number 1 choice of seats, Jewish holidays, bat/bar mitzvahs etc. everywhere. 

I was in a small local "multicultural" (as opposed to Pan Hellenic) Jewish sorority the 1 1/2-2 years I was back home at local state school. 

Most reform Jewish kids hang out at the more liberal/reform Hillel. One of our presideblnts grew up conservative Jewish with a super liberal child of the 60s mother. They bought a 3rd house just to walk to shul in Shabbat. She and her triplet sister became super orthodox. Both are frum (the funniest of Judaism), follow tzniut (the Jewish modesty laws/code) are shom shab or shomer shabbat (follow the Shabbat/Shabbos rules like no electricity from Fri night to Sat night at sunset, no writing or cooking, going to Shabbat sertopic.

In college she encouraged most of our sorority 5o hang out at Chabad. Chabad-Lubavich is a hassidic (haredi, ultra orthodox) group. They're the most evangelical of all Jewish groups which takes almost nothing. But they do outreach for now practicing Jewish to start performing mitzvahs or good deeds like women lighting the Shabbat candles and saying the prayer, etc. Husband and wife teams with young and rapidly growing families are sent to Chabad houses in areas across the world. In the US they're in many college towns, any area with a decent Jewish populations. They keep ALL the holidays and are always open door. We used to just destroy Shabbat and bring cases of Manischewitz with us bringing thus back on topic.

I'm a Confirmed Catholic and was baptized LDS when I was younger. The Catholic churches in Colorado and Hawai'i I had communion at it tastes like red wine. Nothing special. LDS use tiny water cups with tiny pieces of white bread. I'm not even going there with the joke its too low hanging .

Ah yes. Manischewitz.  I like it for making haroset (fruit and nut mixture that is part of the Seder) and it is good dribbled over cake for dessert.

I have two Manischewitz stories.  The first actually involves Lubavicher friends who told my ex-husband (an atheist Jew) that Manischewitz wasn’t kosher enough (or not declared kosher by the right authorities) when he brought it to a dinner shortly before I met him.  I was very sorry, because the wine they recommended was not as good. Fortunately my in-laws liked Manischewitz.  (My ex and I were married 22 years and raised our children Unitarian but aware of traditions on both sides,)

My second Manischewitz story involves my fundie Pentecostal college roommate about whom I have spoken before.  Her religion forbade drinking, but there was no nonsense about how the wine in the Bible was really grape juice.  My roommate and her sister wanted to try drinking, so after some thought they bought themselves a bottle of Manischewitz Concord grape wine because, they explained to me, it was the wine that Jesus himself had drunk and so there could be no sin in having a little glass.

[Jackie3]

14 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Would Josh have had more basis for appeal if he had been sentenced to the maximum of 20 years? I'm an American who believes the US justice system is deeply, horribly flawed. The fact that so many people (often POC) are given the same sentence and more as Josh is confirmation of this. 

No, appeals are based on an error of law. Josh has to prove that the law wasn't followed or was applied wrong. I can't see why the length of the sentence would be an error of law, unless it was outside the federal guidelines/requirements. For example, if the law said CSA viewers could get 8-20 years and the judge gave hime 100, that would be an error of law.

Any lawyers here disagree?

[zee_four]

6 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

My roommate and her sister wanted to try drinking, so after some thought they bought themselves a bottle of Manischewitz Concord grape wine because, they explained to me, it was the wine that Jesus himself had drunk and so there could be no sin in having a little glass.

Hahahaha. Oh my god this is one if the best things I've ever heard!!! I love Judaism, my dad's foster mom was Russian Jewish. I lived in the dorms, which meant freshman almost exclusively at CU when I went back after going to school out east on a track scholarship and after years of surgeries for bad injuries and time off. Thanks bottom of the barrel financial aid. I got my own room after like a week because my freshman roommate who had moved into a hotel with her like 40 year old boyfriend walked in on my and a friend hooking up and got really upset. It was strange but they realize a 23 year old living with an 18 year old probably wouldn't work best. In my new room my next door neighbor was a sweet freshman from Boston who was very active in liberal Jewish causes. She got invited to the sorority and asked me to come with her. I wasnt officially Jewish, but when I was younger when I finally met my dad's foster mom and had gotten close but she died not too long after, I got really into it expanding on what she had taught me. I really love Judaism, the tradition, the social responsibility, the lack of evangelism and outside the extremists (fundies of all religions are more alike each other than the rest of their denominations) etc. I ended up nannying for the Chabad rabbi's keiki for a year. I was totally accepted and always there to help answer questions like that Easter doesn't celebrate Jesus turning into a bunny like the super frum president I mentioned thought and asked me about when she went as the Easter bunny for Purim. Theres a picture of me fake hitting her on the head with a menorah wearing my brothers Eagle Scout uniform haha. Purim is the best.

[gustava]

This thread is a hilarious amalgam of Joshie's prison sentence and our religious wine proclivities.  I am often annoyed about thread drift, but Joshie and booze just seem to go together.  Thanks for keeping me gigging.

[nokidsmom]

20 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Ha, I looked at Valpo! I ultimately went to a different college where I was happy, in spite of a raging eating disorder.

Both my LCMS cousins went to Valpo.  Met their husbands there too. 

Being ELCA, I considered Augustana but ended up elsewhere. 

21 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

We are now going to the Lutheran church my husband grew up in (that's a whole other long story, we were UU's, then I was going to UCC, and now we are back to where we got married). Anyway, I sometimes make the bread for communion and my husband took it back to wherever that stuff is to set it up. He saw the wine, it's Riunite. Reminds me a bit of wine coolers. 

Growing up, Dad was active in church council including council president.   Found out from him that the communion wine was Cold Duck, this was 70s btw.

[onekidanddone]

Errrr. Changed my mind. 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by onekidanddone