Maxwells 59: On the Road Again

[GreenBeans]

3 hours ago, theologygeek said:

I wouldn't trust anyone from that school teaching my kids.  Even if they left the religion out of it, I still wouldn't trust them.  I looked at their course catalog, compared it to the curriculum at a local university near me, and I can't for the life of me figure out how they fulfill the requirements necessary for teaching.  The difference in courses is like night and day. 

I’m not sure what “accredited” really means in the US and what is required to receive that label. What I can say for sure is that there is no way this school would ever be considered a college/university here in Germany.

For example, you can earn a degree in religious studies here, but it’s very academic, not fundamentalist and of course it includes critical views, scientific discussions and studying of historic sources, including original languages (it’s common that you need to know Hebrew, Latin and/or Greek as a requirement to be able to take some courses and graduate).

No one here would take a master in “camping ministry” seriously (or a master in any kind of “ministry”, for that matter). And there’s no way an institution like ABC would be recognized as a university here.

[Austrian Atheist]

I'm from Austria and I agree. "Camping Ministry" would never get you a degree here. Camp counselors here are usually students (education, sports science...) or licensed sports instructors doing this as a typical summer job. The closest thing I can think of is "Freizeitpädagoge" (leisure educator). You only need a two semester course. Usually you can work in the afternoon care of school childeren or in an all-day school as an assistant to the teachers. You are definitly not considered an academic and you do not earn as much as real teachers.

Edited May 13 by Austrian Atheist

[SassyPants]

Is it camping ministry or CAMPUS ministry?

[noseybutt]

On 5/12/2024 at 12:24 AM, GreenBeans said:

I’m not sure what “accredited” really means in the US and what is required to receive that label. What I can say for sure is that there is no way this school would ever be considered a college/university here in Germany.

For example, you can earn a degree in religious studies here, but it’s very academic, not fundamentalist and of course it includes critical views, scientific discussions and studying of historic sources, including original languages (it’s common that you need to know Hebrew, Latin and/or Greek as a requirement to be able to take some courses and graduate).

No one here would take a master in “camping ministry” seriously (or a master in any kind of “ministry”, for that matter). And there’s no way an institution like ABC would be recognized as a university here.

I suspect that one way US is different from Germany is that, generally, in the US the accreditation is determined by private accrediting agencies. The Counsel of Higher Education and Department of Education appoint or recognize different accrediting agencies/groups, and then these agencies determine which institutions qualify. It is not the government directly. Instead it's this mishmash of 400+ agencies.

The accrediting agencies vary as to how well respected they are. 

ABC is accredited by the Association for Biblical Higher Eduction. This is accreditation is enough to allow ABC students access to Pell Grants and other forms of federal and state financial aid.

I would not say it's a respected accreditation. It's one that is very specific to evangelical Christian colleges.

The more respected accredition agencies are usually regional, for example the New England Commission of Higher Education or the Western Association of Schools and Colleges.

[theologygeek]

On 5/12/2024 at 3:24 AM, GreenBeans said:

I’m not sure what “accredited” really means in the US and what is required to receive that label. What I can say for sure is that there is no way this school would ever be considered a college/university here in Germany.

For example, you can earn a degree in religious studies here, but it’s very academic, not fundamentalist and of course it includes critical views, scientific discussions and studying of historic sources, including original languages (it’s common that you need to know Hebrew, Latin and/or Greek as a requirement to be able to take some courses and graduate).

No one here would take a master in “camping ministry” seriously (or a master in any kind of “ministry”, for that matter). And there’s no way an institution like ABC would be recognized as a university here.

I'm from the US and I don't even get it.  I never saw a college like that.  From the beginning, it seemed more like babysitting.  Once I read some reviews, and someone got grounded for not cleaning their room.  Found it.  https://www.niche.com/colleges/appalachian-bible-college/reviews/?rating=Terrible  Also, camp counselors are usually teenagers who get that for a summer job.  It's a minimum wage summer job for kids.  I don't understand how a person can get a college degree in something that a camp counselor does.  Even missions work is something anyone can do.  You just need to have the money to get where you're going and volunteer.  I'm glad that Mary and Anna got away from that house, and also made new friends, but I can't for the life of me understand how that place is accredited. 

[kpmom]

A lot of better known colleges have sports management degrees. Would ABC’s camp ministry degree be on par with those?  
 

I looked at the reviews of ABC on the link @theologygeekposted. The very first 1 star review mentioned the school caters to the male students, and the female students are very much 2nd class citizens. Now why doesn’t that surprise me?

Edited May 13 by kpmom

[goldbu]

33 minutes ago, kpmom said:

A lot of better known colleges have sports management degrees. Would ABC’s camp ministry degree be on par with those?  
 

I looked at the reviews of ABC on the link @theologygeekposted. The very first 1 star review mentioned the school caters to the male students, and the female students are very much 2nd class citizens. Now why doesn’t that surprise me?

I went to a well known Christian university (that a lot of people don’t even realize is Christian) and it has a “recreation and leisure studies” major. Within that you could choose to concentrate in “church recreation” if you wanted. The people I knew who did that wanted to be work at church camps as directors, chaplains, etc. There were also secular concentrations for people who wanted to do other, outdoorsy types of careers that weren’t church related (jobs in parks, adventure recreation type jobs, outdoor education, protected area management, etc). All that to say, a camping ministry major doesn’t surprise me at a place like ABC 

[kpmom]

10 minutes ago, goldbu said:

. Within that you could choose to concentrate in “church recreation” if you wanted. The people I knew who did that wanted to be work at church camps as directors, chaplains, etc

Those were the types of jobs ABC listed as the ones camp ministry graduates would seek, along with Youth Pastor, Recreation Director, things like that. 
 

I really don’t think they did themselves any favors naming the degree “Camp Ministry”.  As people here have pointed out it makes it sound like a camp counselor degree. 

1 minute ago, kpmom said:

 

Edited May 13 by kpmom
Screwed up and quoted myself somehow

[Caroline]

On 5/12/2024 at 3:24 AM, GreenBeans said:

I’m not sure what “accredited” really means in the US and what is required to receive that label. What I can say for sure is that there is no way this school would ever be considered a college/university here in Germany.

I am college educated in the US, and I don't consider that kind of school accredited in the traditional academic sense either. There are so many kinds of colleges and universities here and they run the gamut from very selective to not at all selective.

The Bible variety are a completely different animal to me. The only religious college I know of in my region (New England) is a highly rated liberal arts college. But it is not a Bible college and doesn't have all of the really weird restrictions that a school like ABC has. It appeals to people far more religious (Protestant) than I have ever been, but I don't believe it's restrictive and closed minded.  It's hard to imagine Mary or Anna being happy, for example, at my daughter's highly selective very liberal LAC. Just as my daughter would be miserable at a school like ABC that seems designed for super sheltered home-schooled fundamentalist Christians who are used to following rules and don't really have any experience thinking independently. 

It's hard to imagine that Germany has any kind of Bible college like ABC since fundamentalist Christianity isn't really a thing there like it is here. And I hope it never catches on!

[GreenBeans]

22 hours ago, noseybutt said:

I suspect that one way US is different from Germany is that, generally, in the US the accreditation is determined by private accrediting agencies.

I’m not quite sure how accreditation works here or if it’s even a thing. Generally, when someone says they attend university, people would assume they go to a public university (I think most “proper” universities are public and run by the state, private schools are the exception rather than the rule). So the entire education system is set up differently.

From Wikipedia: “Most German universities are public institutions, charging fees of only around €60–500 per semester for each student, usually to cover expenses associated with the university cafeterias and (usually mandatory) public transport tickets.”

Here is some more background on universities in Germany: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Germany

Edited May 14 by GreenBeans

[Pammy]

I do some work at a Bible College that is also accredited by the Association for Biblical Higher Education -- so I have some experience with what they require. While a place like ABC is not the equivalent of a public university, ABHE ensures things like: that degrees involve the correct number of credit hours; that -- among the schools under the ABHE umbrella -- degrees of the same name are approximately the same level of difficulty; that instructors are qualified (masters' degrees to teach undergraduates, phds to teach masters students); that a library exists and is professionally run; that there is a grievance policy that is followed; that financials are in order and transparent -- and similar types of standards.

In general, at the school where I work, first year courses are considerably easier than university first year courses, and the remaining years 2-4 are at about a first year university level of difficulty. For Bachelor's of Theology (the most serious academic degree) you can expect some original language requirements to be in place, usually taken during fourth year. The main purpose of a Bible College education is to serve as a foundation for a future master's degree, or to make you a strong ministry/church volunteer. There are few paying jobs available to bachelor's degree Bible College graduates, but they might include: not-lead pastoral positions (or pastoring in very small churches), jobs at non-profit organizations, or entry-level missions work. Most work beyond those roles would expect a master's degree.

The school I'm talking about does not offer a degree or diploma in "Camp Ministry" but a specialization like "Children's Ministry" might be offered as a sub-type of a more general degree like a "Bachelor of Christian Education". (Although most students would not want to specify their degree that way, since it's very limiting.) They do also offer different things like a "Diploma in..." or "Certificate of..." for students who want less than a 4-year bachelor's degree.

The main purpose of ABHE is to be able to distinguish a legitimate school that is actually offering the education it claims to offer with a degree of professionalism -- vs something more like a fundamentalist pastor would run out of his church basement, a correspondence school, or a diploma mill. Places like ABC are definitely not universities, but they are miles better than lots of other things that claim to be a Bible College.

[moreorlessnu]

On 5/13/2024 at 8:56 PM, Caroline said:

The only religious college I know of in my region (New England) is a highly rated liberal arts college. But it is not a Bible college and doesn't have all of the really weird restrictions that a school like ABC has.

Are you referring to Boston College? Assumption College? Holy Cross? Emmanuel? Regis? 

Boston College was the first name that came to mind when I read this, but then these other names popped into my head. Inquiring minds want to know...

[Bluebirdbluebell]

36 minutes ago, moreorlessnu said:

Are you referring to Boston College? Assumption College? Holy Cross? Emmanuel? Regis? 

Boston College was the first name that came to mind when I read this, but then these other names popped into my head. Inquiring minds want to know...

Trinity College? Eastern Nazarene College? Wesleyan College? 

I googled it and ironically Havard, Yale, etc. came up because they were founded as religious schools. 

Edited May 19 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Caroline]

2 hours ago, moreorlessnu said:

Are you referring to Boston College? Assumption College? Holy Cross? Emmanuel? Regis? 

Boston College was the first name that came to mind when I read this, but then these other names popped into my head. Inquiring minds want to know...

I had Gordon College in Massachusetts in mind. So many others have religious affiliations but Gordon calls itself a Christian college without all the wacky bible college rules. And from what I've heard it provides a good education comparable to other good liberal arts colleges. Way too progressive for our fundies. There are probably others but no Maxwell level bible college that I know of.

I knew one very fundie home schooled girl who had to go a distance to attend a true Bible college. I think she went to one in Pennsylvania.

Edited May 20 by Caroline

[kpmom]

That was very helpful, @Pammy

Do you think an undergraduate from ABC or your college would be able to get into a graduate program at a non- religious school?  In other words, would those schools honor the type of accreditation that ABC and your school has?

[front hugs > duggs]

On 5/19/2024 at 8:20 PM, Caroline said:

I had Gordon College in Massachusetts in mind. So many others have religious affiliations but Gordon calls itself a Christian college without all the wacky bible college rules. And from what I've heard it provides a good education comparable to other good liberal arts colleges. Way too progressive for our fundies. There are probably others but no Maxwell level bible college that I know of.

I knew one very fundie home schooled girl who had to go a distance to attend a true Bible college. I think she went to one in Pennsylvania.

I know someone who went to Gordon College for part of their college education, and I actually visited them there for a weekend. There are definitely some interesting rules - all students must eat in the cafeteria at one time, it isn't come and go as you want. And more understandable gender rules regarding dorms. It seems like the student body was split into two- one half heavily fundie, and one half still religious, but would also drink at older student's off-campus housing. My friend was considered a HUGE rebel there for drinking, but they certainly weren't alone.

[pupper]

My child had a couple of friends who went to Olivet Nazarene College and they had lots of rules to follow - mandatory chapel services, room inspections and signing a document agreeing not to drink alcohol on or off campus just to name a few. I think there were punishments/demerits given for breaking any rules.

The thing is, these girls absolutely didn’t need this kind of supervision. They were smart, not wild, normal girls. This school was also crazy expensive. Ironically, all of the girls came from a town with a large, well respected pubic university that would have been significantly cheaper.

But they all also belonged to a very evangelical Christian church and this private school was heavily pushed to the kids and their families as a “safer” place than the public university. 

Happily, all the kids have done very well. After graduating, they’ve all pursued Master’s degrees from other schools.

 

I know smaller schools are a better fit for some. But I am happy that my own child, who was very active in the same church, was persuaded to attend the large public university instead. She grew so much and encountered so many new people and ideas. She did several study abroad experiences, including a semester in France. Then she got her Masters degree at another large public university and is currently starting a PhD program at the same school. Shockingly (to Steve) she is married, has a child, a full time job, drinks alcohol and is very active in her church.

(Thanks for letting a proud mama brag a bit 😀)

[Bassett Lady]

I know a bit about the accreditation process in the United States. 
 

ABC is accredited by The Association for Biblical Higher Education which provides oversight of the religious aspects of the school. It is a National Accrediting Board. 
 

ABC is also accredited by The Higher Learning Commission, a regional accrediting  body that provides oversight of the administration, procedures, and academic integrity of the institution. The Higher Learning Commission oversees both secular and religious institutions. Regional Accreditation is the gold standard of accreditation.
 

ABC also has accreditation of specific programs. The education program is accredited by the State of West Virginia for teachers to receive a license to teach K-6 grade. The lack of higher math and science at the college means they cannot be accredited to license a Middle School or High School teacher. 

Somewhat paradoxically, national Accreditation is less important. It is essentially irrelevant. 
 

National accreditation sounds like a better and more expansive level of accreditation. However, it is lesser in all meaningful aspects. That counterintuitive linguistic reality often trips up students who come to the US from abroad, especially those from less developed countries or from impoverished economic conditions.  They come to the United States, spend astonishing amounts of money, and then discover after all the hard work and money that they have an irrelevant degree. 
 

These schools with only national  accreditation , or religiously accredited schools, cannot transfer their credits to reputable universities and they cannot use the degree to open the doors to almost all  graduate programs or licensing. 
 

ABC has regional accreditation and, while their degrees don’t appeal to me, they are being very honest and upfront about their degrees and their academic rigor. 

 

 

[HeartsAFundie]

On 5/21/2024 at 11:59 AM, front hugs > duggs said:

I know someone who went to Gordon College for part of their college education, and I actually visited them there for a weekend. There are definitely some interesting rules - all students must eat in the cafeteria at one time, it isn't come and go as you want. And more understandable gender rules regarding dorms. It seems like the student body was split into two- one half heavily fundie, and one half still religious, but would also drink at older student's off-campus housing. My friend was considered a HUGE rebel there for drinking, but they certainly weren't alone.

A former co-worker's daughter, now in her late 20s, graduated from Gordon.  She is married and has been for a couple of years and last I heard, was working as a youth minister at a Joel Osteen-sized church in the Chicagoland area. She does not look fundie or conservative in the slightest.  She wears trendy clothes including ripped jeans and has at least a couple of tattoos.     

This co-worker and her family left lifelong Catholicism to join the "born-again" movement awhile back.  

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

A HS friend converted from lifelong lifelong Catholicism to fundie born-again when he married his born-again wife years and years ago just after college. The serious fundie stuff -- homeschooling, wifely submission, wives don't work, women don't speak in church, etc., etc., etc.

Eventually his parents and siblings all left Catholicism to become fundies. I never could understand  why. They weren't strict/ trad Catholics at all.

 

 

[HeartsAFundie]

14 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

A HS friend converted from lifelong lifelong Catholicism to fundie born-again when he married his born-again wife years and years ago just after college. The serious fundie stuff -- homeschooling, wifely submission, wives don't work, women don't speak in church, etc., etc., etc.

Eventually his parents and siblings all left Catholicism to become fundies. I never could understand  why. They weren't strict/ trad Catholics at all.

 

 

That's like my co-worker and her family. The kids were in Catholic school but she was not what you would call an uber Catholic, nor did she appear to be very conservative.  I know the husband's mom was a Catholic who became born-again but he wasn't until they all must have decided to convert.  Then suddenly the kids were pulled out of Catholic school, transferred into public school and the co-worker is singing the praises of the Duggars, Sarah Palin and later on, Donald Trump.  It was the weirdest thing.   

The irony is that even after they all turned born-again, the materialism-especially when it came to clothes shopping-never ceased.  Definitely no modesty when it came to dress, and piercings and tattoos were okay.    Again, the weirdest thing.  

Edited May 23 by HeartsAFundie

[HereticHick]

So Anna is back home working for Nathan.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

I has a sadz about this. 😭 😱

Anna is probably living at the mothership, once again under Stevehovah's ironfisted control, her chances of having a life of her own -- away from Stevehovah and Terified -- are now nil. She'll be the unmarried daughter taking care of the elderly parents and the go-to, on-call babysitter for all the grandchildren.

Dear Rufus, please please please let Sarah convince Anna that moving into her own apt. and looking online for someone to date can work out really really really well. Please make sure Chelsy helps with this.

[Coconut Flan]

Could she possibly be there for the summer and trying for a teaching position in the fall?  

[0 kids n not countin]

I like to imagine that perhaps she is living on her own and maybe dating someone as Sarah did.