Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[imokit]

The issue for Anna is that none of the Duggar siblings like Josh.  They haven't been close to him since the molestations.  Even in the early specials on contrived reality TV, there was some bits of Josh bossing little people, but none of him actually interacting properly with them.  Even JD did all his interactions with Jana/Joe never with the boy closest in age.

His siblings didn't like him.  They liked Anna because she meant Josh was leaving the house.  Then the molestations went public and the girls were retraumatised and lost the show for a bit.  Then Ashley Madison happened and they were shown that Josh never changed (like he and their parents promised).  When he was arrested I don't think any of his siblings questioned his guilt, they didn't like him, they knew he'd molested children before, he was guilty.  I think Joy mentioned in court documents (I think related to the lawsuit from her and her sisters) that her children had never been alone with Josh.  Even pre arrest when everything was supposedly forgiven, she (appropriately) didn't trust him.

Anna meanwhile is still clinging to his innocence.  She needs him to be innocent for her own sanity, if he's guilty then everything else is a lie.   The siblings can't give her that support as they coming from a completely different place.  And for many of them, having someone defending him may be traumatic in its own right, the Duggar kids are all Josh's victims.  The girls for what he did to them, but also the boys for the impact it had.  The boys saw the impact it had on their sisters.  They were viewed as potential predators and stopped from doing things like hide and seek.  They lost the money from the show.  All of which the kids blamed Josh for.

 

Anna's trauma and the Duggar kids trauma right now are completely incompatible.  Its no wonder that they aren't able to support each other.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

7 minutes ago, imokit said:

The issue for Anna is that none of the Duggar siblings like Josh.  They haven't been close to him since the molestations.  Even in the early specials on contrived reality TV, there was some bits of Josh bossing little people, but none of him actually interacting properly with them.  Even JD did all his interactions with Jana/Joe never with the boy closest in age.

His siblings didn't like him.  They liked Anna because she meant Josh was leaving the house.  Then the molestations went public and the girls were retraumatised and lost the show for a bit.  Then Ashley Madison happened and they were shown that Josh never changed (like he and their parents promised).  When he was arrested I don't think any of his siblings questioned his guilt, they didn't like him, they knew he'd molested children before, he was guilty.  I think Joy mentioned in court documents (I think related to the lawsuit from her and her sisters) that her children had never been alone with Josh.  Even pre arrest when everything was supposedly forgiven, she (appropriately) didn't trust him.

Anna meanwhile is still clinging to his innocence.  She needs him to be innocent for her own sanity, if he's guilty then everything else is a lie.   The siblings can't give her that support as they coming from a completely different place.  And for many of them, having someone defending him may be traumatic in its own right, the Duggar kids are all Josh's victims.  The girls for what he did to them, but also the boys for the impact it had.  The boys saw the impact it had on their sisters.  They were viewed as potential predators and stopped from doing things like hide and seek.  They lost the money from the show.  All of which the kids blamed Josh for.

 

Anna's trauma and the Duggar kids trauma right now are completely incompatible.  Its no wonder that they aren't able to support each other.

I think they may have had sympathy for Anna. I highly doubt she was told the whole story before the molestation scandal broke.

[onekidanddone]

1 hour ago, Inky said:

I suspect Anna will want to move closer to Josh in prison but I don't see her leaving her children with Michelle at all. Michelle would not want them, for one thing, and I doubt Jana and whoever is doing "school" with the littles, would want the extra responsibility either. Don't forget, Michelle's claim to fame "and i gave birth to every one of them", and the fact that she very quickly passed them off to a sister mom as soon as they were weaned/or around 8 months. She isn't interested in raising anyone's children, much less her own. 

Does Jana as a SAHD even have a choice wether or not to raise money them? There is also Jeni and Jorydon who probably have been sister moms for quite a while. The only one I see having no responsibility is Josie.  Not because she can’t or won’t. I think Michelle still consider Josie that baby of baby of the family. 

[Cam]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

The issue for Anna is that none of the Duggar siblings like Josh.  They haven't been close to him since the molestations.  Even in the early specials on contrived reality TV, there was some bits of Josh bossing little people, but none of him actually interacting properly with them.  Even JD did all his interactions with Jana/Joe never with the boy closest in age.

His siblings didn't like him.  They liked Anna because she meant Josh was leaving the house.  Then the molestations went public and the girls were retraumatised and lost the show for a bit.  Then Ashley Madison happened and they were shown that Josh never changed (like he and their parents promised).  When he was arrested I don't think any of his siblings questioned his guilt, they didn't like him, they knew he'd molested children before, he was guilty.  I think Joy mentioned in court documents (I think related to the lawsuit from her and her sisters) that her children had never been alone with Josh.  Even pre arrest when everything was supposedly forgiven, she (appropriately) didn't trust him.

Anna meanwhile is still clinging to his innocence.  She needs him to be innocent for her own sanity, if he's guilty then everything else is a lie.   The siblings can't give her that support as they coming from a completely different place.  And for many of them, having someone defending him may be traumatic in its own right, the Duggar kids are all Josh's victims.  The girls for what he did to them, but also the boys for the impact it had.  The boys saw the impact it had on their sisters.  They were viewed as potential predators and stopped from doing things like hide and seek.  They lost the money from the show.  All of which the kids blamed Josh for.

 

Anna's trauma and the Duggar kids trauma right now are completely incompatible.  Its no wonder that they aren't able to support each other.

 Yes to all of this! 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, imokit said:

The issue for Anna is that none of the Duggar siblings like Josh.  They haven't been close to him since the molestations.  Even in the early specials on contrived reality TV, there was some bits of Josh bossing little people, but none of him actually interacting properly with them.  Even JD did all his interactions with Jana/Joe never with the boy closest in age.

His siblings didn't like him.  They liked Anna because she meant Josh was leaving the house.  Then the molestations went public and the girls were retraumatised and lost the show for a bit.  Then Ashley Madison happened and they were shown that Josh never changed (like he and their parents promised).  When he was arrested I don't think any of his siblings questioned his guilt, they didn't like him, they knew he'd molested children before, he was guilty.  I think Joy mentioned in court documents (I think related to the lawsuit from her and her sisters) that her children had never been alone with Josh.  Even pre arrest when everything was supposedly forgiven, she (appropriately) didn't trust him.

Anna meanwhile is still clinging to his innocence.  She needs him to be innocent for her own sanity, if he's guilty then everything else is a lie.   The siblings can't give her that support as they coming from a completely different place.  And for many of them, having someone defending him may be traumatic in its own right, the Duggar kids are all Josh's victims.  The girls for what he did to them, but also the boys for the impact it had.  The boys saw the impact it had on their sisters.  They were viewed as potential predators and stopped from doing things like hide and seek.  They lost the money from the show.  All of which the kids blamed Josh for.

Anna's trauma and the Duggar kids trauma right now are completely incompatible.  Its no wonder that they aren't able to support each other.

 

I hope none of them are supporting him, but it may be that none of them are stupid enough to support him publicly. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Pecansforeveryone]

I would be very surprised if any of the oldest 6 or 7 are supporting Josh in any way. The only one I could see maybe supporting Josh a little in a come to Jesus and repent kind of way would be Joe. And Joe is making a quiver of his own and pretty busy. I also get the sense he has some loyalty and regard for his FIL. If said FIL proclaimed Josh a reprobate, I could see Joe being done with him, and none of the oldest children to take that place. 

[onekidanddone]

35 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I would be very surprised if any of the oldest 6 or 7 are supporting Josh in any way. The only one I could see maybe supporting Josh a little in a come to Jesus and repent kind of way would be Joe. And Joe is making a quiver of his own and pretty busy. I also get the sense he has some loyalty and regard for his FIL. If said FIL proclaimed Josh a reprobate, I could see Joe being done with him, and none of the oldest children to take that place. 

Has there been confrontations between Caldwell and Josh?

[Pecansforeveryone]

@onekidanddone, not that I am aware of. I was under the impression Papa Caldwell and JB had fallen out some time before the raid on the car lot so I don't think he has any loyalty to JB. 

[Cam]

Josh had a number of chances and opportunity to turn things around. I don’t see Joe taking on some come to Jesus moment with his older brother when that has. not. worked. ever. Joe is young with his whole life ahead of him and no doubt wants to distance himself from Josh, especially having all those kids. I don’t see him jeopardizing his marriage to Kendra for a pedophile convict brother. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Cam

[Meggo]

17 hours ago, imokit said:

The issue for Anna is that none of the Duggar siblings like Josh.  They haven't been close to him since the molestations.  Even in the early specials on contrived reality TV, there was some bits of Josh bossing little people, but none of him actually interacting properly with them.  Even JD did all his interactions with Jana/Joe never with the boy closest in age.

His siblings didn't like him.  They liked Anna because she meant Josh was leaving the house.  Then the molestations went public and the girls were retraumatised and lost the show for a bit.  Then Ashley Madison happened and they were shown that Josh never changed (like he and their parents promised).  When he was arrested I don't think any of his siblings questioned his guilt, they didn't like him, they knew he'd molested children before, he was guilty.  I think Joy mentioned in court documents (I think related to the lawsuit from her and her sisters) that her children had never been alone with Josh.  Even pre arrest when everything was supposedly forgiven, she (appropriately) didn't trust him.

Anna meanwhile is still clinging to his innocence.  She needs him to be innocent for her own sanity, if he's guilty then everything else is a lie.   The siblings can't give her that support as they coming from a completely different place.  And for many of them, having someone defending him may be traumatic in its own right, the Duggar kids are all Josh's victims.  The girls for what he did to them, but also the boys for the impact it had.  The boys saw the impact it had on their sisters.  They were viewed as potential predators and stopped from doing things like hide and seek.  They lost the money from the show.  All of which the kids blamed Josh for.

 

Anna's trauma and the Duggar kids trauma right now are completely incompatible.  Its no wonder that they aren't able to support each other.

I wonder - if now that he's essentially out of the physical picture at least - if any of the siblings will reach out to her and try to build that relationship with her. And slooooowly try to ease her out of the fold. She could build a relationship with someone relatively "safe" like Joy. Who - yes, steeped in the koolaid - doesn't seem to be AS dependent on Daddy but also seems to maybe get along with the family (unlike Jill) and sloooowly start to open her eyes just a little bit. 
I know they're all probably angry that she's supported their molester. But they also have to understand that she has had no CHOICE to this point - where does she go with all of the M kids if she leaves? And maybe having that separation from him, they can show her the situation without the Jimboob lense? I dunno - just spitballin' here.

 

[waltraute]

There will be no forward positive movement for Anna until she fully accepts Josh's guilt. I don't see any hopeful change for her until this happens and this is a big hurdle. 

[saywhat7]

The part I struggle with is how does she see him innocent. She sat through the trial. I don't get it. 

[FiveAcres]

4 minutes ago, saywhat7 said:

The part I struggle with is how does she see him innocent. She sat through the trial. I don't get it. 

Dissociation is a hell of a drug.

[waltraute]

11 minutes ago, saywhat7 said:

The part I struggle with is how does she see him innocent. She sat through the trial. I don't get it. 

Willful disregard and determined blindness. It took active effort on her part to be nonobservant.

ETA: as @FiveAcres stated above, dissociation was probably her best tool.

Edited June 14, 2022 by waltraute

[Marshmallow World]

6 minutes ago, saywhat7 said:

The part I struggle with is how does she see him innocent. She sat through the trial. I don't get it. 

I suspect she is telling herself that while the horrible CSAM was indeed downloaded, it was someone else doing the downloading, and NOT Josh. He was either deliberately framed, probably because of his godliness, or someone else downloading that stuff was covering their tracks through various VPNs and/or routers and Josh happened to take the brunt of it. I would bet that the denial is likely running pretty deep.

[Cam]

4 hours ago, Meggo said:

I wonder - if now that he's essentially out of the physical picture at least - if any of the siblings will reach out to her and try to build that relationship with her. And slooooowly try to ease her out of the fold. She could build a relationship with someone relatively "safe" like Joy. Who - yes, steeped in the koolaid - doesn't seem to be AS dependent on Daddy but also seems to maybe get along with the family (unlike Jill) and sloooowly start to open her eyes just a little bit. 
I know they're all probably angry that she's supported their molester. But they also have to understand that she has had no CHOICE to this point - where does she go with all of the M kids if she leaves? And maybe having that separation from him, they can show her the situation without the Jimboob lense? I dunno - just spitballin' here.

 

I don’t see how any siblings would lead Anna out of the fold that they, too, are still in it.  I don’t think any are interested in taking Anna on as kind of a project. With Joy, there’s almost a ten year difference in age. Joy’s priorities are Austin and her kids. The biggest factor Joy would not reach out is she was one of Josh’s victims. Didn’t she and Austin release a statement after his conviction? They agreed with the verdict. I don’t think Joy feels to saintly towards Anna who still sees Josh as innocent.

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

11 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

Dissociation is a hell of a drug.

I think she’s dissociated and in denial because the cost of facing reality is too high for her.

[missy1228]

I immediately think of cognitive dissonance when I think of Anna.

[Cam]

 

One thing I love about an iPad is the feature of highlighting a word and clicking “Look Up” to instantly get the word  definitions. I use it often. I did it with dissociation and would definitely say this is Anna’s approach:

 

 

 

I’m not sure I comprehend the cognitive dissonance term completely, but from what I grasp about it, instead of detachment (dissociation), you are holding two completely different sets of beliefs. So in Anna’s case, if she were thinking, “I know my husband is guilty of the heinous crime of csam possession but still, I think he’s such a wonderful person.” that would be cognitive dissonance. At this point, I think Anna clings to the fallacy that Josh is innocent, so she’s not wrestling with two incompatible thoughts.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Cam

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

22 minutes ago, Cam said:

I’m not sure I comprehend the cognitive dissonance term completely, but from what I grasp about it, instead of detachment (dissociation), you are holding two completely different sets of beliefs. So in Anna’s case, if she were thinking, “I know my husband is guilty of the heinous crime of csam possession but still, I think he’s such a wonderful person.” that would be cognitive dissonance. At this point, I think Anna clings to the fallacy that Josh is innocent, so she’s not wrestling with two incompatible thoughts.

Well said, and I agree. She's protecting herself by accepting his BS about Caleb being the real perp. "More to the story." If she ever stops accepting his claim that he's not the one, I don't see her thinking what he did is balanced out by his widow supporting or his cracker sweeping. She only cited these things to the court because she was hoping it would help minimize the sentence.

For now, she's probably pinning all her hopes on a successful appeal. An appeal that will never be granted. If she were truly suffering from cognitive dissonance, there would be no hope for her. But I think in time, she may very well gradually start accepting the truth. A decade is a long time. 

[SunnySide]

On 6/13/2022 at 5:20 PM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I think they may have had sympathy for Anna. I highly doubt she was told the whole story before the molestation scandal broke.

Didn’t Jim Bob and Michelle once attempt to explain that Anna and her parents knew after she and Josh were engaged? The whole world collectively rolled their eyes (rightfully so) as JB and M attempted to explain that they told Anna about some “indiscretions” and she was completely okay with it? Pretty much no one in their right mind believed that she and her parents knew the whole story. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, SunnySide said:

Didn’t Jim Bob and Michelle once attempt to explain that Anna and her parents knew after she and Josh were engaged? The whole world collectively rolled their eyes (rightfully so) as JB and M attempted to explain that they told Anna about some “indiscretions” and she was completely okay with it? Pretty much no one in their right mind believed that she and her parents knew the whole story. 

Only Josh knows the real story. The girls have even told differing stories. I tend to believe that JB actually disclosed nothing prior to the engagement. 

[Giraffe]

27 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

 I tend to believe that JB actually disclosed nothing prior to the engagement. 

I used to believe JB only told them a “no biggie” story about inappropriate touching. After Douchebag Keller’s letter to the court I’m convinced JB could’ve been explicit with Pa Keller about what the convicted child predator did and Pa Keller still would’ve married Anna off to him. 

[WarriorJane]

On 6/14/2022 at 2:06 PM, Marshmallow World said:

I suspect she is telling herself that while the horrible CSAM was indeed downloaded, it was someone else doing the downloading, and NOT Josh. He was either deliberately framed, probably because of his godliness, or someone else downloading that stuff was covering their tracks through various VPNs and/or routers and Josh happened to take the brunt of it. I would bet that the denial is likely running pretty deep.

I think both Anna and Michelle know Josh is guilty,  but they see this as something that happened to him rather than something he did.  They think he was under attack by Satan.  And of course Satan targeted him because he is so godly and his family is so godly that he wants to take them down.   And the FBI and the prosecutor, judge and jury are all in on it because they too are being controlled by Satan.   They are convinced that Josh is a victim who was targeted because of God favors his perfect holier-than-thou Christian family and he is quite a good get for the devil.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Only Josh knows the real story. The girls have even told differing stories. I tend to believe that JB actually disclosed nothing prior to the engagement. 

I think they told Anna pretty much the story that they later told Meghan Kelly: that Josh had been a little too curious about girls when he was a young teen and had tried to “feel” his sisters over the bedclothes on a couple of occasions then confessed because he was so godly.  They may also have told her that he was tempted to watch porn and she needed to help him beat that temptation.  Anna was in no position to question how serious any of this was, if her parents were telling her it was all ok.

Her father might have been given more details (though probably not all the details) in part because I am sure there were lots of rumors and there was a possibility he would have heard stuff from others.  It’s usually best to tell the story you want to push.

Mentioning the Meghan Kelly interview makes me think about Jill and Jessa and how much they knew when they were telling the, “we were asleep and didn’t even know what he had done,” story.  Had they blocked it all out?  Did they really believe this was normal boyish behavior?