Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, Idlewild said:

Anna has perfected denial into an art form. Despite Josh trashing everything- the show, the DC job, her dignity, she carried on- curating her social media image of ‘little Duggars’, trying to get paid partnerships, trying to get her and her kids back on TV and she actually seemed to enjoy the ‘strong Christian wife’ praise the humpers heaped on her.

Now even the most rabid supporters are having second thoughts - especially seeing the effect he has had on sisters he abused and by digging her heels in Anna is looking at best delusional, at worst complicit. 

There's a point where people have had enough, no matter what.  That "forgiveness" as someone like Anna understands it, only goes so far regarding people like Josh who trash their own lives and those around them.  Anna clearly has not had enough as unbelievable as it is.  Seems that more loyal supporters, including family, finally are waking up to things but Anna doesn't realize that there is indeed a point where sympathy can run out.  You can ride the sympathy wave for only so long.   The longer she goes denying Joshley's guilt, at least publicly, the more she will be seen as just as bad as he is. 

My ex-fiance, whom I have mentioned here a few times. was a seriously troubled young man.   I won't go into the sorry and disturbing details but after loss of a parent along with serious abuse he was sent to his grandparents to finish the job of raising him.  For a while he had a lot of people sympathizing / making excuses for him (me included) but over time he was demonstrating some creepy and downright sick behaviors, clearly from his unresolved issues.   And in a small, conservative Christian community (not fundie but conservative) so like with Joshley in his church community, he was developing somewhat of a "reputation" for lack of a better word.   Eventually his staunchest supporters/enablers got tired of making excuses for him, long after I was gone.   Believe or not he was studying for the ministry, but while he got his MDiv, he never served as a pastor in large part because he demonstrated complete unfitness for that job in front of the very community he was wanting to serve.    During this time, he desperately wanted to get back with me, but seeing him trash his reputation, his job prospects and his dignity, there was no way in hell I was getting back with someone like that.    You (general you) can love someone all you want but you can't change them, or save them, there's a point it's going to take you, and others depending on you, down if you stay or even defend them.

Back to Anna, she's still caught up in the Duggar life, still wants to milk the sympathy in keeping things going not realizing in trying to salvage/maintain things (which is somewhat understandable) she may be damaging her own reputation / public perception.  And that may also affect her kids, through no fault of their own.  There's a point you have to save yourself and, with kids in the mix, you are absolutely duty bound to do so.   

Edited June 9, 2022 by nokidsmom

[Freejin]

what happens when someone writes a tell all book? If they mention names can those people sue them?

[Four is Enough]

I've told my story of my child who molested younger children. I've said I clung to the idea the child was innocent for a long time. However, after the evidence convinced me that said child was actually involved, (they didn't say guilty, they said involved) it still took me a while to switch from "innocent" to "let's do what we can to get this child on the straight and narrow".

What was in between? For me, grief and mourning. It couldn't last long, because Mr. Four and I had to support the recovery.

Anna has a lot further to go on De Nial... and it's a slow moving barge she's on.

[Expectopatronus]

I kinda think that if Anna is going to leave the cult and admit that nothing about her adult life is healthy, it will be in spite of not because of posts like Amy's. Attacking her will only cause her to cling more desperately to her IBLP beliefs but if someone who lives a different life than her walks with her in a "hey, single parenting is hard! Can I drop off a meal?" sort of way, she may see that leaving doesn't mean turning into a horrible person like she has been taught. 

I also think it doesn't matter much for the next 12 years whether she divorces Josh or not. He's out of the picture. If she takes five or six years to leave him, not much will change either way. What will be interesting is if Josh ends up out of state; will she move to be near him or stay? If she moves away from the Duggar compound, I have more hope for Anna and the kids breaking free. If she stays, well..... time will tell. Eventually JB and Michelle will lose their grip on their family; I mean, they have to, right?

[Cam]

19 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Michelle "caught a baby" when she was 44/45. Not that many have Michelle's baby catching abilities.

Is that like instead of catching the flu, she caught a baby? Never heard the expression.

 

 

Murkey

 

 

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I've told my story of my child who molested younger children. I've said I clung to the idea the child was innocent for a long time. However, after the evidence convinced me that said child was actually involved, (they didn't say guilty, they said involved) it still took me a while to switch from "innocent" to "let's do what we can to get this child on the straight and narrow".

What was in between? For me, grief and mourning. It couldn't last long, because Mr. Four and I had to support the recovery.

Anna has a lot further to go on De Nial... and it's a slow moving barge she's on.

I’m so sorry that you’ve gone through this. Very difficult. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Cam

[EmCatlyn]

12 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

The 'unclean' thing is interesting - I haven't read Purity and Danger by Mary Douglas since my anthropology degree but her famous takeaway was 'dirt is matter out of place', ie nothing is itself 'dirty', but when it is out of the space it ought to occupy, has escaped from its category, then it is regarded as dirt. She has a chapter in it on Leviticus and I think concludes that many of the foods forbidden in it are ones that are not easily categorised as one thing or another, eg a pig is an anomalous creature by the categorisation of the period as it has hooves and yet is omnivorous. Therefore, since it can't be easily classified, it is dangerously unquantifiable - not to be touched, unclean.

I assume the same could be said of men or women who adopted garments that were associated with the opposite sex - this would make them anomalous, unclassifiable, and therefore impure/unclean. It's this lack of order that then becomes regarded as a spiritual threat.

That’s probably a part of it, since another prohibition is the weaving or knotting together linen and wool (shatnez).  Lots of concern about mixing vs keeping things separate.

The issue of women’s “uncleanliness” may be more complicated still because it is connected to attitudes to menstrual flow.  

My take is that most prohibitions and rules initially have several reasons, and that some of the reasons are redefined with different generations.

[justmy2cents]

1 hour ago, Expectopatronus said:

I also think it doesn't matter much for the next 12 years whether she divorces Josh or not. He's out of the picture.

I think it does matter. If she remains married to him she’ll have to visit him, take his calls, and write loving letters to him. She’ll keep enabling him. If she leaves him he’ll lose his biggest support, and will have to face reality. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

Is that like instead of catching the flu, she caught a baby? Never heard the expression.

That's because only Michelle Duggar has ever said she was trying to catch a baby. 

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

What will be interesting is if Josh ends up out of state; will she move to be near him or stay? If she moves away from the Duggar compound, I have more hope for Anna and the kids breaking free. If she stays, well..... time will tell. Eventually JB and Michelle will lose their grip on their family; I mean, they have to, right?

If Josh is sent to Texas I could see Anna and the kids moving near the Wallers.  If that happens, I doubt she'll ever break free.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

2 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

I kinda think that if Anna is going to leave the cult and admit that nothing about her adult life is healthy, it will be in spite of not because of posts like Amy's. Attacking her will only cause her to cling more desperately to her IBLP beliefs but if someone who lives a different life than her walks with her in a "hey, single parenting is hard! Can I drop off a meal?" sort of way, she may see that leaving doesn't mean turning into a horrible person like she has been taught. 

I also think it doesn't matter much for the next 12 years whether she divorces Josh or not. He's out of the picture. If she takes five or six years to leave him, not much will change either way. What will be interesting is if Josh ends up out of state; will she move to be near him or stay? If she moves away from the Duggar compound, I have more hope for Anna and the kids breaking free. If she stays, well..... time will tell. Eventually JB and Michelle will lose their grip on their family; I mean, they have to, right?

I agree with this, I think she has a better shot if she moves away from the Duggarverse and forms her own bonds with the new community.
 

21 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

And it didn't work out, which is likely at that age. There are other examples of women having babies at that age, but it's very rare.

In Jill's case, she hasn't been pregnant in 4 years. She's older and her husband is older. Both of them may have health issues which affect fertility. She's had one kid in over 6 years. 

I think people like to think about Jill having more kids in the same way people like to think about Anna doing some kind of IVF with Josh while he's in prison. It's not likely to happen and it's almost fan fiction.

What health problems do Jill and Derrick have? 
 

And while we’re on it doesn’t Jinger have health issues too?

[quiversR4hunting]

23 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

If Josh is sent to Texas I could see Anna and the kids moving near the Wallers.  If that happens, I doubt she'll ever break free.

Is the Arkansas facility an entry point or is this where he will be at for his sentence? Right now he is in Forrest City, Arkansas 

 

 

[marmalade]

That's not Smuggar. Last name is spelled wrong. Age is wrong, as is the release date. 

[mango_fandango]

Also the middle initial is wrong, too. Turd’s middle name is James. 

[Not that josh's mom]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I agree with this, I think she has a better shot if she moves away from the Duggarverse and forms her own bonds with the new community.
 

What health problems do Jill and Derrick have? 
 

And while we’re on it doesn’t Jinger have health issues too?

I think they are talking about Jill Rodrigues. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

18 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Jill Rod has luck to get almost everything she wants. (House, RV, vacation rental home, replacement car, etc.) So her wishing to be pregnant again is another thing she wants but we all hope she doesn't. 

Not really! She wanted to be friends with the Duggars and that didn't pan out. Nurie married Anna's brother, but other than Anna, Josh and the kids, none of the Duggars attended the wedding. There are a lot of other things Jill wants that she probably won't get.

It's extremely unlikely given the health issues that she will have another baby. People can't get pregnant through willpower. I think people like to think about Jill having more kids in the same way people like to think about Anna doing some kind of IVF with Josh while he's in prison. It's not likely to happen and it's almost fan fiction.

I know other fundies who seem to get what they want, but Jill isn't one of those people. I'm not jealous of Jill R, and I don't want to be a fundie.

17 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Yes, I agree.i remember after Nicole Nugler had her last one, we all were worried about her having another one. 1. It is horrible on her mental health. 2. she almost died. 

I hope all these mega moms can't have more babies. We don't need a generation that is more indoctrinated than the parents and many have less education.  

I hope we are watching the demise of the big influential fundie movements. 

On some level, it doesn't matter if Jill R can have more kids since she can have grandchildren to continue fundiedom.

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

What health problems do Jill and Derrick have? And while we’re on it doesn’t Jinger have health issues too?

I was talking about Jill Rodrigues and her husband David. 

I don't know of any health issues with Jill, Derick, or Jinger.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Kayleigh83]

15 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

  Her very obvious anger when exiting the courthouse after his conviction and her "there's more to the story" tweet after the legal motion to overturn, tells me that yes, she is desperately hanging to the idea that Josh is innocent despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary.  

That “ there’s more to the story“ post struck me as particularly ridiculous and delusional too. Like, what are you saying? There was more evidence that his defense team didn’t present in court that could have changed the outcome? Why would they do that? Doesn’t make much sense… what “more” is there that didn’t get covered in literally excruciating detail in court?

Just such horseshit!

[quiversR4hunting]

7 hours ago, marmalade said:

That's not Smuggar. Last name is spelled wrong. Age is wrong, as is the release date. 

🤦‍♀️ I looked it a couple times an thought it looked off.

6 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Also the middle initial is wrong, too. Turd’s middle name is James. 

🤦‍♀️oh yeah he has the double J thing going with his name. Unfortunate for this dude to have the same name as the turd. (Or he could be just as nasty and they deserve nearly identical names.)

I shouldn't post when tired after trying to get ready for an open house. 😴 

Edited June 10, 2022 by quiversR4hunting
Spelling

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

I think it does matter. If she remains married to him she’ll have to visit him, take his calls, and write loving letters to him. She’ll keep enabling him. If she leaves him he’ll lose his biggest support, and will have to face reality. 

I think In a previous thread I said there’s a third in between option. She could eventually stop taking his calls at some point and stop writing him. But not divorce him. I would imagine that would be a few years in. 

[Cam]

48 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think In a previous thread I said there’s a third in between option. She could eventually stop taking his calls at some point and stop writing him. But not divorce him. I would imagine that would be a few years in. 

Personally I don’t see this happening. She’s too conditioned to take care of his needs.

 

8 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Not really! She wanted to be friends with the Duggars and that didn't pan out. Nurie married Anna's brother, but other than Anna, Josh and the kids, none of the Duggars attended the wedding. There are a lot of other things Jill wants that she probably won't get.

It's extremely unlikely given the health issues that she will have another baby. 

 Was Jillrod’s desire to be friends with the Duggars so she could bask in their TV spotlight? Did she ever publicly comment on Josh’s arrest and conviction? What health problems does she have? I can take wild stabs at her mental heath troubles. Phew! What a nutcase.

[Four is Enough]

12 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

That's because only Michelle Duggar has ever said she was trying to catch a baby. 

I've heard others say they "caught pregnant" but not many.

[ElizaB]

I think what we have to remember about Anna is that she has thoroughly convinced herself he is innocent. The length of his sentence won’t ever really “sink in” because she is convinced any day there will be an over turning of his sentence because his innocence will be revealed and he will be sent home. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Anna might reassess when his conviction is upheld.

[Sarcastically spinster]

14 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The issue of women’s “uncleanliness” may be more complicated still because it is connected to attitudes to menstrual flow.  

 

A practical implication - if a woman is unclean, and anything she touches is unclean, and anyone who touches things she's touched is unclean, she's not going to be doing housework, cooking, etc., while on her period.  A woman on her period being unclean means that she gets to rest and not have physical demands made of her.  We're not even that far in our modern culture.  

As a former fundie, still with many fundie family/friends, and very familiar with a lot of fundie viewpoints:
 

- IVF.  There's a range of objections to IVF.  One of the prominent ones is that it's not trusting God with your reproductive process, which I think is most likely to be the reason the Duggars would oppose it.  I've honestly never heard masturbation raised as an issue with it - I'm assuming because the wife would be able to assist the husband rather than it being solo masturbation, in which case it would be mutual sexual activity.  The biggest argument against it is that often not all embryos are used, or there's selective reduction.  Since fundies believe life begins at conception, not attempting to implant all embryos is considered abandonment of their children.  Selective reduction is seen as murder for the same reasons abortion is.  Some fundies are OK with IVF as long as there is an attempt to implant all embryos at some point.  (Many don't seem to recognize an inconsistency between being OK with fertility treatments but not with birth control.)

 

- pants.  There are very, very few fundies that only ever allow skirts.  I do know people who weren't allowed to sleep in anything except a nightgown, but that's not normal.  Most fundies are fine with a more relaxed clothing standard within their home/around family.  The Duggars wouldn't have done that on the show because their home was being broadcast on TV, so it became a public setting.  But generally, except the very strictest, most fringe groups, pants in the home/for yard work is considered fine.  Modesty is the driving factor, and modesty with the same sex and with minor children isn't prioritized.  As sons get older, that changes, but since the M boys are still pre-teens, there's likely an assumption that they wouldn't be tempted to lust, and therefore modesty is less important in front of them.  It would be the exception, rather than the rule, within fundie families, for Anna to *not* have been wearing pants in private before this.  The change would be wearing them in public.  

 

As far as what is motivating the change, that's all speculation.  But one thing I've seen is that there can be cases of fundies doing a certain level of reflection of what they've been involved with, and thinking that because they've done that, they've learned the lessons from that and moved on.  I remember hearing a (private) conversation with Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin that was like that.  They were reflecting on Vision Forum, Doug Phillips, etc.  They recognized a lot of toxic things about VF and DP, and talked about feeling uncomfortable with girls coming up to them asking to get their books signed, etc.  But there wasn't ownership of how *they* participated.  It was clear that they felt enlightened and like it was a growth experience and that they felt like seeing the toxic things that they did legitimately see was sufficient.  It's almost like a vaccination against truth, where exposure to some prevents them seeing all.  

This may not be happening with Anna.  But there's been a shock to her world.  The promises that were supposed to give her a perfect life have failed her.  Her husband is gone.  That is going to force a re-evaluation, however much she doesn't want it to.  She has to find someone who failed.  Someone to blame.  I think it's very likely that the pants in public are a sign of a rejection of something within the system that she was raised in and spent her whole life in.  She's never had a reason to question it before, because the promises were, largely, being delivered on.  Going in public in pants is a step against the system.  Even though others had started wearing them before, it's still a change, and it's hopeful to me that there's a sign of a change at the same time as she's being forced to find something or someone to blame.  It's a indication that at least some of the blame is going to the right place.  Because Josh deserves most of it, for sure.  But so does the system, so does JB.  For someone who has toed the line for so long, even past others starting to relax on some things, it's really promising IMO.  I just hope she doesn't do the same as some of the others, where that inoculative effect seems to have come into play, but that she continues looking for answers on why this happened, who is at fault, etc.  

[Gobsmacked]

15 hours ago, Dandruff said:

If Josh is sent to Texas I could see Anna and the kids moving near the Wallers.  If that happens, I doubt she'll ever break free.

At least she would be nearer to her own mother. Suzette has the same ridiculous beliefs as Michelle but does appear to be more ‘ motherly’.  Anna and Priscilla were close growing up. Anything to get her out of that warehouse.
If Anna moves to be closer to Josh (ugh)  hopefully JB will still support her financially.  

. 

[Satan'sFortress]

32 minutes ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

Modesty is the driving factor, and modesty with the same sex and with minor children isn't prioritized.  As sons get older, that changes, but since the M boys are still pre-teens, there's likely an assumption that they wouldn't be tempted to lust, and therefore modesty is less important in front of them. 

I wonder how Anna will feel when her older boys reach the age Josh was when he began molesting his sisters. When Michael is 14, the little girls will be about 9, 6, and 4--not too far off the ages Josh's sisters were.

 

ETA:  clarifying that I in no way think her boys will follow in their father's path---just commenting to explore how Anna will feel.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Satan'sFortress